Why does God intervene (or not intervene) the way that He does

[bluebell]

In a different thread Stem mentioned that he believes that God does intervene on our behalf, but not to help people find their keys (or things of that nature) because that idea is silly.  He's not the only poster here who holds that view but his view of it was the most recent i've read so i'm using him as an example of that idea.

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?  What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?  I get the idea that God doesn't intervene, and I get the idea that He does (when it is according to His will) but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In a different thread Stem mentioned that he believes that God does intervene on our behalf, but not to help people find their keys (or things of that nature) because that idea is silly.  He's not the only poster here who holds that view but his view of it was the most recent i've read so i'm using him as an example of that idea.

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?  What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?  I get the idea that God doesn't intervene, and I get the idea that He does (when it is according to His will) but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

Not providing justification that an idea is silly is silly because it abandons the use of reason.

It seems to me that God intervenes on everything eventually in some fashion and to some degree. That is the purpose of His  infinite atonement, enabled by His infinite and eternal sacrifice. Any/everything lost will be found.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

In a different thread Stem mentioned that he believes that God does intervene on our behalf, but not to help people find their keys (or things of that nature) because that idea is silly.  He's not the only poster here who holds that view but his view of it was the most recent i've read so i'm using him as an example of that idea.

I don't really understand the keys thing.  If I lose my keys I search for them until I find them.  If I stop half way through my search and say a prayer only to resume my search and find them, how is God intervening?  I think it's something we simply can't prove either way, though.  But, the use of it to express how God is concerned about you feels a little bit self-aggrandizing.  No one who prays to God for help to find lost keys knows that God has intervened when such a person finds them.  They may believe God somehow directed. 

Years ago when I was in the YMs we had a joint activity, playing some game on an open lawn.  Afterward a young men couldn't find his phone.  The YWs leader thought it was a great learning experience.  She had the kids gather and pray--a few minutes of searching took place and we found them.  Was it God or was it that we searched.  Did the phone only appear because we prayed?  Or did the initial moments of search simply not extend far enough to the east?  Whatever the case she testified, afterward.  I was like, if God is going to inspire us to find his phone, which we would have found without praying, then I hope he too will inspire each of you to not take drugs, be mean to another, or fail your tests.  But rest assured just saying a prayer ain't gonna stop that, even if it helps your soul rest. 

Anyway, my take.  Some clarification. 

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?

Well we don't know God's will.  If God intervenes and a child about to fall off a cliff is suddenly grabbed by a nearby inspired adult, then great.  God intervened.  The question is How could we possibly know God inspired this adult?  or if by chance the adult noticed and made a move?  The adult, depending on the person, could attribute it to God, even feel like God inspired some sudden feeling, but that certainly doesn't prove God intervened.  It could be anything.  What if the next day the same child and adult are walking across the street and get hit and killed? 

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

 What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?  I get the idea that God doesn't intervene, and I get the idea that He does (when it is according to His will) but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

I say we simply dont' know.  We can attribute to God things like finding lost car keys at a, at least from our limited perspective, needed time.  It could be we happened to find them.  An atheist can find his keys just as well as a prayerful Christian, in other words.  Attributing to God a missed car wreck sounds great, but again, an atheist could just well feel the need to turn or stop at the right time.  It could very well that God inspires an atheist to find lost car keys or to stop his car just in time, or it could be that none of it is because of God.  There's no way to know.  if God tells you He found your keys, claim it all day long.  But, it's also possible you just happened to look in a place you failed to previously look. 

My hope is if God intervenes to help a stressed person to find his/her keys, then perhaps He can intervene to stop genocide, or rape. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Not providing justification that an idea is silly is silly because it abandons the use of reason.

It seems to me that God intervenes on everything eventually in some fashion and to some degree. That is the purpose of His  infinite atonement, enabled by His infinite and eternal sacrifice. Any/everything lost will be found.

Tell that to my kid who has been praying to find his lost fidget spinner. 

[CV75]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Tell that to my kid who has been praying to find his lost fidget spinner. 

Is that any way to engage in a discussion between grownups?

Not that I don't I think i could teach him the same principle in terms he can understand.

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't really understand the keys thing.  If I lose my keys I search for them until I find them.  If I stop half way through my search and say a prayer only to resume my search and find them, how is God intervening?  I think it's something we simply can't prove either way, though.  But, the use of it to express how God is concerned about you feels a little bit self-aggrandizing.  No one who prays to God for help to find lost keys knows that God has intervened when such a person finds them.  They may believe God somehow directed. 

Years ago when I was in the YMs we had a joint activity, playing some game on an open lawn.  Afterward a young men couldn't find his phone.  The YWs leader thought it was a great learning experience.  She had the kids gather and pray--a few minutes of searching took place and we found them.  Was it God or was it that we searched.  Did the phone only appear because we prayed?  Or did the initial moments of search simply not extend far enough to the east?  Whatever the case she testified, afterward.  I was like, if God is going to inspire us to find his phone, which we would have found without praying, then I hope he too will inspire each of you to not take drugs, be mean to another, or fail your tests.  But rest assured just saying a prayer ain't gonna stop that, even if it helps your soul rest. 

Anyway, my take.  Some clarification. 

Well we don't know God's will.  If God intervenes and a child about to fall off a cliff is suddenly grabbed by a nearby inspired adult, then great.  God intervened.  The question is How could we possibly know God inspired this adult?  or if by chance the adult noticed and made a move?  The adult, depending on the person, could attribute it to God, even feel like God inspired some sudden feeling, but that certainly doesn't prove God intervened.  It could be anything.  What if the next day the same child and adult are walking across the street and get hit and killed? 

I say we simply dont' know.  We can attribute to God things like finding lost car keys at a, at least from our limited perspective, needed time.  It could be we happened to find them.  An atheist can find his keys just as well as a prayerful Christian, in other words.  Attributing to God a missed car wreck sounds great, but again, an atheist could just well feel the need to turn or stop at the right time.  It could very well that God inspires an atheist to find lost car keys or to stop his car just in time, or it could be that none of it is because of God.  There's no way to know.  if God tells you He found your keys, claim it all day long.  But, it's also possible you just happened to look in a place you failed to previously look. 

My hope is if God intervenes to help a stressed person to find his/her keys, then perhaps He can intervene to stop genocide, or rape. 

If i'm understanding you right, your main complaint to the idea is that we don't know if He actually intervened or not.  Does it matter if we have proof that God intervened?  

Also, the other point that I think you are making is that either God should intervene to stop really horrible events or it makes no sense for Him to help someone find something they lost.  My thinking is, whether he steps in to intervene in situation A has absolutely no bearing or connection on His ability or will to intervene in situation B.  I'd like to understand better why situation A and situation B are connected in your view.

Edited August 30, 2017 by bluebell

[The Nehor]

God can intervene in small and large ways.  He has unlimited resources. His helping someone find their keys does not mean he was distracted from a tornado. He intervenes as He wills to fulfill his purposes in ways big and small.

There is no model we can use to determine when God will intervene. If there were we could manipulate circumstances to force miracles. In other words I could finally be a wizard. But I cannot.  

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?  What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?

I believe that God intervenes in peoples lives in ways that will help that person return to Him and in ways that that person will understand. 

If a person believes that God will not help them find their keys, then I don't think He will.  But if help finding lost keys helps keep a person on a path back to God then I believe that God may intervene in that way.

I can say that I've had God intervene in my life in both big and small ways. 

(But never with keys as I can't remember the last time I lost them )

Edited August 30, 2017 by ksfisher

[stemelbow]

46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If i'm understanding you right, your main complaint to the idea is that we don't know if He actually intervened or not.  Does it matter if we have proof that God intervened?  

That's not a complaint.  It's a statement.  We don't know.  I don't think that's my main concern though. 

46 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Also, the other point that I think you are making is that either God should intervene to stop really horrible events or it makes no sense for Him to help someone find something they lost.  My thinking is, whether he steps in to intervene in situation A has absolutely no bearing or connection on His ability or will to intervene in situation B.  I'd like to understand better why situation A and situation B are connected in your view.

I don't get your concern here.  I don't think they are connected and didn't suggest as much.  I said comparing two cases of possible intervention can be troubling.

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I believe that God intervenes in peoples lives in ways that will help that person return to Him and in ways that that person will understand. 

If a person believes that God will not help them find their keys, they I don't think He will.  But if help finding lost keys helps keep a person on a path back to God then I believe that God may intervene in that way.

I can say that I've had God intervene in my life in both big and small ways. 

(But never with keys as I can't remember the last time I lost them )

When I'm trying to understand how God might intervene in my life, I think about how I intervene in my children's lives.  It's not a perfect example but I still find it useful.  For example, I have spent time and energy searching for a 3 year old's favorite stuffed cat because i knew she was sad without it and that having it would make her feel better.  My motivation did not go beyond my desire to show her love and make her happy.

Other times, I have not helped a child search for something, because I thought the child (an older child) was better served by not getting involved.  Those moments are also motivated by love, but also by a desire to help my child grow and mature.    

I used to believe that God never helped us when we could help ourselves.  Then my husband got into a very minor traffic accident and I was stuck at the hospital waiting for him to get X-rays worrying about my 3rd grader and kingergardener getting off the bus and going home to an empty house.  It was very much in my power to leave my husband where he was and drive home, get the kids situated, and then drive back and get him, I just didn't want to do it because it would be an hour long trip.  I had a neighbor that would take the boys in but I couldn't get a hold of her.  I had desperately tried to get in touch with my RS president so that I could get her number from her but she wasn't at home either.  I was resigned to just driving home and dealing with it myself when I looked up and saw the woman I had been trying to reach sitting in a waiting room in another area of the hospital.  I went over to her and quickly got the information I needed.  Her husband had had a dr.'s appointment that day at the hospital and she had decided to go along. 

That was the day I learned that I was wrong about how God intervenes in our lives.  God doesn't decide whether or not He's going to help us based on our abilities to handle things ourselves.  He helps us when He can, when His help doesn't hinder us or our growth or interfere with our agency or the agency of others (and even then I think He helps as much as is possible).  God is a loving parent.

[stemelbow]

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

God can intervene in small and large ways.  He has unlimited resources. His helping someone find their keys does not mean he was distracted from a tornado. He intervenes as He wills to fulfill his purposes in ways big and small.

There is no model we can use to determine when God will intervene. If there were we could manipulate circumstances to force miracles. In other words I could finally be a wizard. But I cannot.  

Sure.  And in every case wherein it is claimed God intervened, none of us really know that He actually did intervene.  We're all just guessworking it here. 

I think many think we honor God when we thank him for intervening to bring two people together, or getting us in the neighborhood we like.  But maybe He hates that stuff.  Maybe He's like, I didn't do nothing to intervene.  Two people met and fell in love.  I didn't bring them together.  I didn't send some boy on a mission to his brother who didn't know about him either--oh yeah I see that story was already admitted to be made up.  I can't keep these made up stories straight. 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

That's not a complaint.  It's a statement.  We don't know.  I don't think that's my main concern though. 

 

Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word complaint.  Thanks for clarifying that it's not your main disagreement with the idea.  I assumed it was because you mentioned it in all four of your paragraphs.  I would still like to hear your thoughts on why you believe it matters whether or not we can prove that God intervened?

Quote

I don't get your concern here.  I don't think they are connected and didn't suggest as much.  I said comparing two cases of possible intervention can be troubling.

You said, "My hope is if God intervenes to help *situation A*, then perhaps He can intervene to stop *situation B*.   It was your use of the if/then statement, something known as a conditional clause, that caused me to believe you were suggesting they were connected.  I'm sorry that I misunderstood.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word complaint.  Thanks for clarifying that it's not your main disagreement with the idea.  I assumed it was because you mentioned it in all four of your paragraphs.  I would still like to hear your thoughts on why you believe it matters whether or not we can prove that God intervened?

I didn't say it matters.  I just said, we simply don't know. 

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

You said, "My hope is if God intervenes to help *situation A*, then perhaps He can intervene to stop *situation B*.   It was your use of the if/then statement, something known as a conditional clause, that caused me to believe you were suggesting they were connected.  I'm sorry that I misunderstood.

No problem.  I get your reasoning.  I just don't see two different cases as connected.  Just comparable. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think many think we honor God when we thank him for intervening to bring two people together, or getting us in the neighborhood we like.  But maybe He hates that stuff.  Maybe He's like, I didn't do nothing to intervene.  Two people met and fell in love.  I didn't bring them together.  I didn't send some boy on a mission to his brother who didn't know about him either--oh yeah I see that story was already admitted to be made up.  I can't keep these made up stories straight. 

If we go by what scripture teaches, then we know that God doesn't hate that stuff.  

"And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things."

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If we go by what scripture teaches, then we know that God doesn't hate that stuff.  

"And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things."

I am aware

so god's hand is in all terrible acts too?  

Edited August 30, 2017 by stemelbow

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I didn't say it matters.  I just said, we simply don't know. 

I know you didn't say it matters, but you have mentioned it multiple times.  Most people don't bring up a point over and over again if they believe it has absolutely no bearing on the topic.   Why bring it up so many times if it doesn't matter?

It's true that we can't usually prove that God intervened, and sometimes we think He did but we don't know.  It's an intriguing idea to say that us not knowing means something in regards to the topic.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by bluebell

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  And in every case wherein it is claimed God intervened, none of us really know that He actually did intervene.  We're all just guessworking it here. 

I think many think we honor God when we thank him for intervening to bring two people together, or getting us in the neighborhood we like.  But maybe He hates that stuff.  Maybe He's like, I didn't do nothing to intervene.  Two people met and fell in love.  I didn't bring them together.  I didn't send some boy on a mission to his brother who didn't know about him either--oh yeah I see that story was already admitted to be made up.  I can't keep these made up stories straight. 

Unless of course God tells you He intervened.  

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I am aware

Are you aware of any references that support the idea that God might actually hate it when we attribute things to Him without proof?

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I am aware

so god's hand is in all terrible acts too?  

I think that's a good question.  I don't know the answer.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I am aware

so god's hand is in all terrible acts too?  

Yeah, or at least God bears some responsibility for not intervening. Seems hideously unfair but we did agree that God would limit his involvement when we signed up for the mortality thing.

[strappinglad]

27 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

.  Maybe He's like, I didn't do nothing to intervene. 

My God would not use a double negative .... unless it was on purpose to suggest that He actually did something !

[CV75]

39 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I didn't say it matters.  I just said, we simply don't know. 

No problem.  I get your reasoning.  I just don't see two different cases as connected.  Just comparable. 

But one cohort of "we" does know. What is wrong with someone knowing that He does intervene in everything eventually to render the most just, merciful and loving outcome for everyone? Are you content not knowing?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

In a different thread Stem mentioned that he believes that God does intervene on our behalf, but not to help people find their keys (or things of that nature) because that idea is silly.  He's not the only poster here who holds that view but his view of it was the most recent i've read so i'm using him as an example of that idea.

My question is, why would God intervene on some things but not on others (as long as the person isn't asking for something against God's will)?  What's the thinking behind that viewpoint?  I get the idea that God doesn't intervene, and I get the idea that He does (when it is according to His will) but I don't really understand the idea that God will intervene to help us, except when it's not in regards to something very important in the grand scheme of things.

I'd like to understand that better.

My belief is that God lets most things occur according to nature, or it's nature. By doing so we are to learn what lessons we can from such acts, or "lack of him acting". When other events interfere with his express will, then he will use divine intervention. However it is clear to me that not all things act (especially people) according to his will. Jesus Christ who could heal the sick and raise the dead and clam the storms, could do nothing in his own home town due to lack of faith.    

[rongo]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't really understand the keys thing.  If I lose my keys I search for them until I find them.  If I stop half way through my search and say a prayer only to resume my search and find them, how is God intervening?  I think it's something we simply can't prove either way, though.  But, the use of it to express how God is concerned about you feels a little bit self-aggrandizing.  No one who prays to God for help to find lost keys knows that God has intervened when such a person finds them.  They may believe God somehow directed. 

Years ago when I was in the YMs we had a joint activity, playing some game on an open lawn.  Afterward a young men couldn't find his phone.  The YWs leader thought it was a great learning experience.  She had the kids gather and pray--a few minutes of searching took place and we found them.  Was it God or was it that we searched.  Did the phone only appear because we prayed?  Or did the initial moments of search simply not extend far enough to the east?  Whatever the case she testified, afterward. 

Some of my experiences entail a lost item turning up where we have already thoroughly searched before. It simply wasn't there. And then it was. This is the sort of thing where people look at each other in amazement, because they all know that they each had looked in that exact spot, and it wasn't there. And then it was.

[stemelbow]

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Unless of course God tells you He intervened.  

Well determining what God said and whether He said something is a squirrely game as well. 

Many years ago as a single fella, I had dated a lovely lady for some time.  She was obviously wanting to keep it going and it became a time for me to seriously consider marriage.  So I prayed...and prayed.  I said, "should I marry her or not?"  I heard the word no.  I took that as from God, broke up with her and the rest is history, as they say.  Anyway, it could have easily gone the other way, I realize.  Maybe God told me no, or maybe it was the devil sticking his nose in our business to break up love and all that.  Maybe it was just my own self realizing deep down I really didn't want to take it there at that time.  I'll never know. 

I"d suggest in any case wherein one says God tells them.  We're still left to determine it God really did tell us, if we just thought He did in a confirmation bias thing, or if some other influence popped in.  It's an iffy faith based, guess worky world we live in.