Visitors from behind the Veil?

[cdowis]

Dr. James White, a well known church critic, relates a temple encounter.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by cdowis

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

They seem to be talked about much less then even 10-20 years ago imho. I think this would be a great topic for discussion.

I wonder why we don't hear about hardly any visions after Joseph Smith from the prophets. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

Dr. James White, a well known church critic, relates a temple encounter.

 

 

This is a story that relates to my sister in law when she got the temple work done for my  niece.  Said she saw her on some steps or something. 

[boblloyd91]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder why we don't hear about hardly any visions after Joseph Smith from the prophets. 

That's a good question. I feel a bit frustrated at times with the mentality of keeping things sacred. I understand why but I think if we don't hear from time to time the fruits of the gospel church can just turn into a weekly three hour set of meetings telling you all the things you have to do. I hate it when church becomes that. I think we need to hear about sacred things from time to time to let us know what our worship is all pointing towards. I'll stop ranting now.

[cdowis]

13 hours ago, Jeanne said:

This is a story that relates to my sister in law when she got the temple work done for my  niece.  Said she saw her on some steps or something. 

Someone related a story in this forum where he had gone to the temple for his own endowment.  During the session, he noticed a balcony with several individuals sitting there.  He asked his companion how they were able to get in the balcony.

"What balcony?" 

[Jeanne]

5 hours ago, cdowis said:

Someone related a story in this forum where he had gone to the temple for his own endowment.  During the session, he noticed a balcony with several individuals sitting there.  He asked his companion how they were able to get in the balcony.

"What balcony?" 

I

Quote

I have never been to the Temple other than to be baptized for the dead and sealed to parents..my sister in law just said stairs..my niece then went up to steps and was gone.

 

[Duncan]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865685960/Spirit-and-power-available-to-those-who-do-family-history-speaker-says.html

This honestly depresses me, I mean no ill will to Scott Lloyd or Elder Richards obviously but his father had a dream about the family name originally had a "T" in it? We don't even know when my Grandma died!!!!!!!!!! My dad doesn't even know, it happened in Germany when he was living here. All we know was it was 1973 or '76. Why that and not this death date? among finding all of my relatives? a "T"? ugh!!!

[Stargazer]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:34 PM, katherine the great said:

It can't. Not on paper anyway. Still many people like to tap into genealogies that trace ancestry to bogus nobility histories that connect to biblical characters and from there back to Adam. They are based on fake genealogies manufactured in medieval times as propaganda to bolster a new king's claim to the throne when they couldn't be backed up by their real heritage. I studied one of them carefully and could see huge gaps in time and geography that were just ridiculous. They are super cool looking and fun to look at but they aren't real.

The church's genealogical department is apparently working to link in a lot of submitted pedigrees and family histories.  Several months ago I was fiddling around on FamilySearch, checking accuracy, and one of my lines I suddenly had parents for one of my 4G grandmothers -- I had not researched them, they just showed up.  I started following that line back and back, and along one line or other, it kept going back, into Wales, into Scotland, into Scandinavia, on and on and on and into the 4th Century CE until I suddenly found myself among I-kid-you-not, some late Roman emperors.  So, apparently, I am a descendant of Valentinian I (reigned 364-375) and Valentinian II (reigned 375-392). Theodosius I (the Great) is a maternal uncle (he was married to a sister of Valentinian II). The emperors Gratian, Constantius III, Valentinian III and Olybrius are all cousins of mine. I have no idea how true this all is, but if nothing else it was fun finding all of it.  I also used to be a direct descendant of Pocahontas, but that line of descent no longer appears in my line.  I guess they are continually verifying data.

Oh, yes, and I am a descendant of Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor (reigned 962-973). 

And no, you don't need to bow or call me "Your Majesty".  I don't stand on ceremony!

Edited August 3, 2017 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

On 7/31/2017 at 5:43 AM, CV75 said:

I have had tremendous difficulty with my genealogy, yet I have never prayed that God NOT help me find my car keys.

... and I've always found my car keys.

I have enough miracles in my life that I don't worry about my lack of progress in genealogy. I feel I am giving it a balanced effort and getting help from consultants (who aren't any successful than I am, so far)  and will continue to do so.

Having heard about car keys and such, I know it sounds like a cliche', but we had an experience with this.

My late wife had a little house-cleaning business, and in addition to car keys and our house key, she had house keys for several of her customers on her key ring.  She mislaid this bundle of keys on one weekend.  We looked and looked but couldn't find them. I don't recall the exact timing any longer (this was ten or twelve years ago), but I think on Monday morning we had our prayer, with she speaking the prayer, and she asked for help in finding her keys, since it was quite important to find them (our own keys we could easily replace).  We both went to work -- me to my office (I was a programmer), and she to a couple of customers for whom she didn't need keys since they would be home. At the end of the day, I came home after her, but she hadn't been upstairs yet, since we typically locked our bedroom door and she didn't have an extra key to that.  So I go upstairs, no expectations, open the door and there, sitting in the middle of the made-up bed, were her keys. She had made the bed in the morning after our prayer, and had locked the room upon leaving.  The keys were still missing at that time.  But there they were.  This was not how I envisioned help in finding the keys -- if we got any help at all, I expected that one of us might be apparently inadvertently and gently guided to where they were.  

I'm sure there are those who will come up with all kinds of alternative explanations for this, but I was there, and I know what happened.  I don't know how this happened, but that's the way it was.

By the way, I don't think that this is a trivial matter.  You've heard of the principle of "line upon line, precept upon precept", right?  I do believe that the Lord trains us gradually to have more and more faith in Him, by just such little experiences like this. And I believe that if we have sufficient faith and attempt to rely upon Him, acting upon the faith we have, we will gradually be led to have more faith, until our experiences with God lead us to a more perfect knowledge.  Part of this is acknowledging Him in our lives.  Like in not simply shrugging one's shoulders when some lost keys are found (or some other seemingly trivial thing occurs), but recognizing His hand in the course of our lives.

[Stargazer]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:05 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I find it interesting that Mormons talk a lot about visions and visitations and angels in the restored gospel, but I rarely hear of any Mormon who actually had these experiences or shared them. Joseph Smith had them in droves, it seems like! But now?

In Catholicism, you will find reports and experiences and officially sanctioned events happening right now of supernatural visitations of angels and saints and Mary and Jesus. It seems we're much more open to discussing supernatural visitations in the present than you are, even though your church is founded on a plethora of supernatural visitations.

Is this an accurate assessment from my outsider viewpoint? And if so, why do you think it is?

ETA: maybe this is a topic for its own thread..?

Recall that Jesus told his disciples to keep certain things to themselves, and he also told some of those who received healings to keep it on the QT, as well.  The Transfiguration was one of those experiences that Peter, James and John were specifically enjoined to keep silent about it until later, after his resurrection.  

Experiences that are received by individuals for their own edification are sacred, and are not to be treated lightly.  In Matthew 7:6 the Lord is recorded as having said:

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

If I, as an individual member of the Church, were to receive a vision (and I haven't, just so you know), it would be intended for my edification, not for public dissemination -- unless directed otherwise by the Spirit.  Let me refer to a Book of Mormon scripture.  In Alma chapter 12 we find the story of Alma and Amulek attempting to preach to the people of Ammonihah.  One of those present is the lawyer Zeezrom, who attempts to trick Amulek into saying things that he can twist in order to turn the crowd against them.  However, Amulek confounds Zeezrom, and in his astonishment at this turn of events, Zeezrom begins to actually inquire into what these two missionaries are teaching. 

8 And Zeezrom began to inquire of them diligently, that he might know more concerning 
the kingdom of God. And he said unto Alma: What does this mean which Amulek hath spoken 
concerning the resurrection of the dead, that all shall rise from the dead, both the just 
and the unjust, and are brought to stand before God to be judged according to their works?

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to 
know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they 
shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the 
children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of 
the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of 
the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

Alma is teaching Zeezrom that he must be humble and open his heart and mind to the Lord, otherwise he cannot understand the things of God.

"It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men"

This is part of the principle involved in only giving milk to those who are not ready for meat.  But it goes further than this.  I think that God recognizes that we each can only handle a limited amount of "progress" at once.  And that if we get an overdose, the old problem of cognitive dissonance kicks in.  If you've believed one thing all your life, suddenly being told that it's hogwash is not an easy thing to deal with -- and some people will not stomach it, even if it was hogwash.

I can tell you that I have had a few remarkable spiritual experiences.  But I do not go about advertising them, for the simple reason that while these experiences were given to me, in reality, they are not mine to tell.  They were received through the Spirit, and must be conveyed to others at the instigation of the Spirit.  They were for me, and me alone, unless permission is granted to share them.  And it isn't selfishness, but it is the principle of "pearls before swine" in operation.  Note that this is a metaphor, not an insult.  Swine don't know what to do with pearls -- pearls are simply beyond them.  There have been a few occasions in my life when I attempted to share one or other of these experiences with others, at my own initiative, and I suddenly felt strongly that I was not to do so.  And there have been other times when I have been given permission to do so.

The following is from a book I read a long time ago, and I don't have a copy of it any longer, so the following may not be completely accurate, but...

In Hartman and Connie Rector's book "No More Strangers", they present the stories of a number of converts to the LDS church.  A few of these had strong spiritual experiences as part of their conversion.  One of them was a Protestant minister who made the mistake of consorting with LDS missionaries, and it resulted in his son and wife both wanting to join the Church, but he was resistant. He especially had a problem with the Book of Mormon.  After some time meeting with the missionaries, he had a dream or a vision, in which he came to a man who was sitting on a couch, with his face behind a copy of the Book of Mormon which he was reading.  The minister asked the man what he thought of the Book of Mormon, to which the reply was: "It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read!"  But the man did not put the book down, and the minister couldn't see his face.  He was annoyed at him for this apparent rudeness, and still more so at his attitude about the book.  He said to the man, "I'll tell you why the Book of Mormon is true!"  And he proceeded to tell the man why it was, using a sentence that was given to him in that moment, and it was utterly convincing.  And when he spoke it, the man lowered the book and stared at him, and he saw who the man was: himself.

This was how this minister gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but in connection with the foregoing, the story goes on to describe how this minister started using that "golden sentence", as he called it, fairly freely, not treating it as a precious resource to be husbanded and used as he was inspired to do so.  And it was taken from him -- he could no longer remember it!  He reported that he repented of his misuse of the sentence, and it was eventually returned to him, but from then on he would only use it when the Spirit permitted.

I would like to suggest that you read (or listen to) a talk given by Elder Boyd K. Packer in the 1971 April General Conference.  It's entitled "The Spirit Beareth Record."  In pertinent part, Elder Packer says:

"There are some things just too sacred to discuss. We know that as it relates to the temples. 
In our temples, sacred ordinances are performed; sacred experiences are enjoyed. And yet we 
do not, because of the nature of them, discuss them outside those sacred walls.

"It is not that they are secret, but they are sacred; not to be discussed, but to be harbored 
and to be protected and regarded with the deepest of reverence."

I have heard some LDS here in this forum complaining that they don't get any special experiences through the Spirit, and some cannot even say that they have received what they consider to be a testimony of the Church, or the Book of Mormon, or of the Prophet Joseph Smith.  Well, I can't offer any explanations for that lack, but I am sometimes led to consider that some of the things that Elder Packer speaks about in that talk might, if internalized, help lead to such a testimony.

Well, I hope this provides a little bit of an answer, or at least a perspective, to your question.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Stargazer

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Having heard about car keys and such, I know it sounds like a cliche', but we had an experience with this.

My late wife had a little house-cleaning business, and in addition to car keys and our house key, she had house keys for several of her customers on her key ring.  She mislaid this bundle of keys on one weekend.  We looked and looked but couldn't find them. I don't recall the exact timing any longer (this was ten or twelve years ago), but I think on Monday morning we had our prayer, with she speaking the prayer, and she asked for help in finding her keys, since it was quite important to find them (our own keys we could easily replace).  We both went to work -- me to my office (I was a programmer), and she to a couple of customers for whom she didn't need keys since they would be home. At the end of the day, I came home after her, but she hadn't been upstairs yet, since we typically locked our bedroom door and she didn't have an extra key to that.  So I go upstairs, no expectations, open the door and there, sitting in the middle of the made-up bed, were her keys. She had made the bed in the morning after our prayer, and had locked the room upon leaving.  The keys were still missing at that time.  But there they were.  This was not how I envisioned help in finding the keys -- if we got any help at all, I expected that one of us might be apparently inadvertently and gently guided to where they were.  

I'm sure there are those who will come up with all kinds of alternative explanations for this, but I was there, and I know what happened.  I don't know how this happened, but that's the way it was.

By the way, I don't think that this is a trivial matter.  You've heard of the principle of "line upon line, precept upon precept", right?  I do believe that the Lord trains us gradually to have more and more faith in Him, by just such little experiences like this. And I believe that if we have sufficient faith and attempt to rely upon Him, acting upon the faith we have, we will gradually be led to have more faith, until our experiences with God lead us to a more perfect knowledge.  Part of this is acknowledging Him in our lives.  Like in not simply shrugging one's shoulders when some lost keys are found (or some other seemingly trivial thing occurs), but recognizing His hand in the course of our lives.

I've also prayed to find my keys and always found them. There was a GC talk recently where such an experience was a key part of the message: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/where-are-the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The church's genealogical department is apparently working to link in a lot of submitted pedigrees and family histories.  Several months ago I was fiddling around on FamilySearch, checking accuracy, and one of my lines I suddenly had parents for one of my 4G grandmothers -- I had not researched them, they just showed up.  I started following that line back and back, and along one line or other, it kept going back, into Wales, into Scotland, into Scandinavia, on and on and on and into the 4th Century CE until I suddenly found myself among I-kid-you-not, some late Roman emperors.  So, apparently, I am a descendant of Valentinian I (reigned 364-375) and Valentinian II (reigned 375-392). Theodosius I (the Great) is a maternal uncle (he was married to a sister of Valentinian II). The emperors Gratian, Constantius III, Valentinian III and Olybrius are all cousins of mine. I have no idea how true this all is, but if nothing else it was fun finding all of it.  I also used to be a direct descendant of Pocahontas, but that line of descent no longer appears in my line.  I guess they are continually verifying data.

Oh, yes, and I am a descendant of Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor (reigned 962-973). 

And no, you don't need to bow or call me "Your Majesty".  I don't stand on ceremony!

Ha ha, I just recently heard something about these lines and how they aren't always true, these lines that lead way back. 

[Storm Rider]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:09 PM, Duncan said:

..........My question is why do some people have these extraordinary experiences and visions and stuff and others are left blowing in the wind with not much to grab onto? like are we not good enough or anything? We can't independently verify my German grandparents birth dates, like my dad's German family history is this black hole that they all fell into and we just can't find any of them, should I be looking for visitors from beyond the grave? 

Hello Duncan, I don't know why some people have black hair and some have auburn hair or blond hair.  I don't know why some people seem to wake up every day happy while others can barely get out of bed and if they do they only see the world in shades of grey.  People are different.

I believe that people have different spiritual gifts.  My wife's family seems to have a gift for seeing through the veil with some degree of regularity within the extended family - i.e. not that they see things constantly, but that so many of them have had very poignant spiritual experiences with those who have passed on at different times in their lives.  My family....not so much.  There are a few examples, but they are as rare as hen's teeth.  

The position I take is that I would like to be prepared for all things; keeping an open heart and mind to assistance from those long dead.  More importantly, I work on genealogy often.  It is amazing what doors open when we do all that we can do to find answers.  I would bet dollars to donuts that the real dates of your German heritage can be confirmed somewhere; just don't give up looking.  

[mnn727]

I never have believed that the supreme ruler of the universe helps people find lost keys. They're always the last place you look which is just where they were placed (or perhaps fell).

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

I never have believed that the supreme ruler of the universe helps people find lost keys. They're always the last place you look which is just where they were placed (or perhaps fell).

Why wouldn't he?  In the event I described above, I'm pretty sure my wife didn't accidentally drop her keys that she couldn't find onto the bed she had just made, before locking the door and going out to work -- just so when I came home I could find them there.

Do you suppose that when God hears a prayer, "Please help me find my keys" he just chortles to Himself about the silliness of the request before forgetting all about it and going off to do something really important, like create a new planet?  I don't!  Maybe he chortles to Himself about the fact that the keys fell down inside the couch -- He's got to have a sense of humor -- before He inspires you to think about checking the couch.  

But I will say that it's perfectly understandable for God to say "That's OK, but you can find them on your own -- just look harder."  He doesn't have to do a miracle each time.  But sometimes, it appears that He does.

[mfbukowski]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:00 PM, MiserereNobis said:

How can your genealogy go back to Adam? That would mean there is genealogical proof that Adam existed...?

ETA: or is this a Mormon euphemism..?

Don't know if this got answered- my wife's genealogy "goes back to Adam".  The pedigree chart was folded and re-folded and when opened was probably 10 feet by 10 feet of fine print before computers, written by hand.

If you can tie in to a royal line, in the middle ages, published genealogies of kings often tied into or were made to tie into, biblical genealogies which of course "go back to Adam"

That is the case for my wife.  Whether or not they have any credibility is up to the beholder.

But her folks came over on the Mayflower and so she is related to most of the founding fathers, and her people joined the church both in the US and England so she is a living pillar of American Mormonism related to many many church leaders, founding fathers Priscilla Alden Mullins etc.

Not a dang pure bred Pole among them except now my kids at last have a set of One True Genes.   Sadly, all Limeys on the other side 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:05 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I find it interesting that Mormons talk a lot about visions and visitations and angels in the restored gospel, but I rarely hear of any Mormon who actually had these experiences or shared them. Joseph Smith had them in droves, it seems like! But now?

In Catholicism, you will find reports and experiences and officially sanctioned events happening right now of supernatural visitations of angels and saints and Mary and Jesus. It seems we're much more open to discussing supernatural visitations in the present than you are, even though your church is founded on a plethora of supernatural visitations.

Is this an accurate assessment from my outsider viewpoint? And if so, why do you think it is?

ETA: maybe this is a topic for its own thread..?

We don't talk about them because they are common in my experience and not to be bragged about.

You are not in the church unless you have a testimony which is by definition a "supernatural" experience- that term in quotes because they are actually perfectly natural.

[mfbukowski]

On 7/30/2017 at 11:34 PM, katherine the great said:

It can't. Not on paper anyway. Still many people like to tap into genealogies that trace ancestry to bogus nobility histories that connect to biblical characters and from there back to Adam. They are based on fake genealogies manufactured in medieval times as propaganda to bolster a new king's claim to the throne when they couldn't be backed up by their real heritage. I studied one of them carefully and could see huge gaps in time and geography that were just ridiculous. They are super cool looking and fun to look at but they aren't real.

You beat me to it!  Not surprised about that!

[mfbukowski]

On 8/3/2017 at 2:47 AM, Stargazer said:

Having heard about car keys and such, I know it sounds like a cliche', but we had an experience with this.

My late wife had a little house-cleaning business, and in addition to car keys and our house key, she had house keys for several of her customers on her key ring.  She mislaid this bundle of keys on one weekend.  We looked and looked but couldn't find them. I don't recall the exact timing any longer (this was ten or twelve years ago), but I think on Monday morning we had our prayer, with she speaking the prayer, and she asked for help in finding her keys, since it was quite important to find them (our own keys we could easily replace).  We both went to work -- me to my office (I was a programmer), and she to a couple of customers for whom she didn't need keys since they would be home. At the end of the day, I came home after her, but she hadn't been upstairs yet, since we typically locked our bedroom door and she didn't have an extra key to that.  So I go upstairs, no expectations, open the door and there, sitting in the middle of the made-up bed, were her keys. She had made the bed in the morning after our prayer, and had locked the room upon leaving.  The keys were still missing at that time.  But there they were.  This was not how I envisioned help in finding the keys -- if we got any help at all, I expected that one of us might be apparently inadvertently and gently guided to where they were.  

I'm sure there are those who will come up with all kinds of alternative explanations for this, but I was there, and I know what happened.  I don't know how this happened, but that's the way it was.

By the way, I don't think that this is a trivial matter.  You've heard of the principle of "line upon line, precept upon precept", right?  I do believe that the Lord trains us gradually to have more and more faith in Him, by just such little experiences like this. And I believe that if we have sufficient faith and attempt to rely upon Him, acting upon the faith we have, we will gradually be led to have more faith, until our experiences with God lead us to a more perfect knowledge.  Part of this is acknowledging Him in our lives.  Like in not simply shrugging one's shoulders when some lost keys are found (or some other seemingly trivial thing occurs), but recognizing His hand in the course of our lives.

It ticks me off that people think God does not intervene in common matters like that.  

Where is the doctrine that says God only helps with the big stuff??

There is no basis at all for believing that.   Drives my nuts.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/3/2017 at 9:14 AM, mnn727 said:

I never have believed that the supreme ruler of the universe helps people find lost keys. They're always the last place you look which is just where they were placed (or perhaps fell).

Why not?

Of course they are the last place you look because you stop looking when you find them.  What kind of nonsense is that?

Are you one of those who also believes God hears silent prayer but are surprised that "God knows my name"?

He dang well better know be better than just knowing my name if He is going to be able to hear silent prayer as I fall off the cliff.....

What is the basis for this cr.........crud?

[Pete Ahlstrom]

On 7/31/2017 at 5:43 PM, Tacenda said:

I wonder why we don't hear about hardly any visions after Joseph Smith from the prophets. 

I wonder that myself. At some point they became too sacred to share whereas Joseph Smith seemed to share anything and everything.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I wonder that myself. At some point they became too sacred to share whereas Joseph Smith seemed to share anything and everything.

The stone cut without hands is rolling forth and doing its job. I have had experiences too sacred to share; have you?

[Pete Ahlstrom]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

The stone cut without hands is rolling forth and doing its job. I have had experiences too sacred to share; have you?

The "too sacred to share" seems to be subject to too much abuse.  It promotes people making up stuff like I used to hear when I was in the MTC.  One missionary in my MTC district was sure the apostles knew how to solve hunger, etc, because, you know, they speak to Jesus every day.  Jesus, however, forbids them to talk about it so we can be tested.  It's too sacred to share with the world.  Too bad for the starving child in Africa.

It's also a method, in some, don't you think, to make themselves out to be more spiritual than they really are?  Look at me, I had an experience that was too sacred to tell, just like the apostles.  Then the listener is left to wonder what magnificent and marvelous experience the teller of the story really had.  It certainly must have been stupendous because, you know, "it's too sacred to share."

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

The "too sacred to share" seems to be subject to too much abuse.  It promotes people making up stuff like I used to hear when I was in the MTC.  One missionary in my MTC district was sure the apostles knew how to solve hunger, etc, because, you know, they speak to Jesus every day.  Jesus, however, forbids them to talk about it so we can be tested.  It's too sacred to share with the world.  Too bad for the starving child in Africa.

It's also a method, in some, don't you think, to make themselves out to be more spiritual than they really are?  Look at me, I had an experience that was too sacred to tell, just like the apostles.  Then the listener is left to wonder what magnificent and marvelous experience the teller of the story really had.  It certainly must have been stupendous because, you know, "it's too sacred to share."

Abusers will abuse. But is this really an issue?

Why take the personal ruminations of a 19-year old in the MTC as representative of all religious people? Do you really put that much stock in stuff people make up?

And I think it very gullible and naïve to suppose describing one’s experience in such terms is an effective way to play up credibility. The only ones who can get away with saying such things are those who use it straightforwardly, and only once their trustworthiness has been well-established.

The stone cut without hands is rolling forth and doing its job. So many people and generations have had the gift of the Holy Ghost, covenants, scriptures, experience with the Restored Gospel, etc. that didn't exist before Joseph Smith, or even during his lifetime (or wouldn't exist without him). These are not too sacred to share, but having them and their fruits also alleviates the need to have the deeply personal fruits of these things shared by others. We can easily relate to them, so stating the reference is enough, and so the important thing is the testimony and to recognize our own sacred experiences.

Some things are too sacred to share in a literal or factual sense. What are yours? Also, we see see at play here a similar principle as D&C 107:4. “But out of respect or reverence to [the level of intimacy experienced with] the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of [the personal details, some accounted for or alluded to in scripture], they, the church, in ancient days, [referred to such experiences as “too scared to share” in the context in which the message or testimony is given].” They are not saying, "Too sacred to share, ever, with anyone."

[Pete Ahlstrom]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Abusers will abuse. But is this really an issue?

Why take the personal ruminations of a 19-year old in the MTC as representative of all religious people? Do you really put that much stock in stuff people make up?

 

And I think it very gullible and naïve to suppose describing one’s experience in such terms is an effective way to play up credibility. The only ones who can get away with saying such things are those who use it straightforwardly, and only once their trustworthiness has been well-established.

 

The stone cut without hands is rolling forth and doing its job. So many people and generations have had the gift of the Holy Ghost, covenants, scriptures, experience with the Restored Gospel, etc. that didn't exist before Joseph Smith, or even during his lifetime (or wouldn't exist without him). These are not too sacred to share, but having them and their fruits also alleviates the need to have the deeply personal fruits of these things shared by others. We can easily relate to them, so stating the reference is enough, and so the important thing is the testimony and to recognize our own sacred experiences.

 

Some things are too sacred to share in a literal or factual sense. What are yours? Also, we see see at play here a similar principle as D&C 107:4. “But out of respect or reverence to [the level of intimacy experienced with] the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of [the personal details, some accounted for or alluded to in scripture], they, the church, in ancient days, [referred to such experiences as “too scared to share” in the context in which the message or testimony is given].” They are not saying, "Too sacred to share, ever, with anyone."

 

You don't think announcing your "too sacred to share" experience unnecessarily creates an unjustified expectation as to what this experience actually was? For instance, I could say, as a new member trying to adapt to my new "too sacred to say" group, I had such an experience that was super sacred and I can't tell you about it. However, in actuality, it's just the normal warm fuzzy answer one gets from moroni's promise. Nevertheless, you and the world at large thinks it is something bigger because the warm fuzzy is so common.