Church growth slowing according to the SL Trib.

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

You're making conclusions that I never drew. I know you're just being hyperbolic but I have not said that the church is engaged in any plot to keep the world uneducated and ignorant. But the facts seem to suggest that in countries with limited access to education, internet and where the church can control its own narrative they are growing...and in countries with access to education, internet and where the church can't control its narrative they are not. Is there a correlation?  I don't know...I'm merely asking the question.

You might want to merely ask the question by calling all practicing Mormons uneducated and dumb rather than targeting darker skinned people. Just sayin'. 

[Calm]

Internet access varies dramatically from country to country.  In Africa, Kenya has 81% of its population as internet users (they have 46 congregations, almost 12,500 members and are about to get a Temple) , the rest of the higher rates of usage are between a third and 2/3 of the country.

It would be interesting to coorelate smaller areas of internet usage (by county or the country's equivalent) with baptism and retention rate.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats1.htm

https://africase.lds.org/kenya-information

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Calm

[Johnnie Cake]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Internet access varies dramatically from country to country.  In Africa, Kenya has 81% of its population as internet users (they have 46 congregations, almost 12,500 members and are about to get a Temple) , the rest of the higher rates of usage are between a third and 2/3 of the country.

It would be interesting to coorelate smaller areas of internet usage (by county or the country's equivalent) with baptism and retention rate.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats1.htm

https://africase.lds.org/kenya-information

 

Sorry to learn this...doesn't bode well for the health of the church in Kenya...

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Sorry to learn this...doesn't bode well for the health of the church in Kenya...

Sincerity drips from your post.

[Johnnie Cake]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sincerity drips from your post.

calm. All I'm doing is connecting the dots. It's not rocket science that as more Kenyan's gain greater access to the internet and access to more information on the church in English and their native Swahili tongue the trend will follow that of other countries with access to more information. Do you disagree?  If so can you give an example of a country that has seen an increase in LDS conversions after gaining greater access to information and the internet? No?

But time will tell...I could be wrong and maybe Kenya will be the exception. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Duncan]

I think that everyone regardless of what Country they live are deserving of the Gospel, if the Church is slowing in the US then that is what it is but we have brothers and sisters in every other country who are just as deserving of the Gospel. I remember when I got my mission call to the US, people laughed at me like as if the citizens of California were somehow unworthy. I told them in response, have you heard the song "Disco Duck"? that guy needs the Gospel!!!!!!!!!! I'll knock on his door, I don't care

 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Duncan

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm just pointing out the obvious...but why would access to "more" information lead to fewer converts while access to a more informationally controlled environment and access to less information lead to greater converts?

I'm not trying to pick winners or losers here ...the market place of ideas seems to be doing that without any help from me... just asking the questions on my mind

Secularism tends to lead people to less faith.  The problem with secularism is that people become prideful and they don't have enough kids.  Eventually the secular society falls and is replaced by a less secular society.  Case in point is Europe.  The Europeans have become less religious and have fewer kids.  The less secular immigrants like Muslims come in and replace them.  The issue really has little do so with information about the the Church on the internet.  Most secular people know little or anything about the Church. They just don't care about religion.  The Church has had a hard time in Europe for decades. Long before the internet the people in Europe did not convert to the Church or really to any church in large numbers.  Right now we are in the peace and prosperity part of the pride cycle.  Once war, economic collapse, and other things start, the secular people will become humble and will become more religious.

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

calm. All I'm doing is connecting the dots. It's not rocket science that as more Kenyan's gain greater access to the internet and access to more information on the church in English and their native Swahili tongue the trend will follow that of other countries with access to more information. Do you disagree?  If so can you give an example of a country that has seen an increase in LDS conversions after gaining greater access to information and the internet? No?

But time will tell...I could be wrong and maybe Kenya will be the exception. 

Most people use the internet for porn, watching movies, social networks, news.  They spend very little time researching religions at all. 

[Jeanne]

51 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Most people use the internet for porn, watching movies, social networks, news.  They spend very little time researching religions at all. 

I don't know..they look up things that they are attuned too and want to know more about. 

[SteveO]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

calm. All I'm doing is connecting the dots. It's not rocket science that as more Kenyan's gain greater access to the internet and access to more information on the church in English and their native Swahili tongue the trend will follow that of other countries with access to more information. Do you disagree?  If so can you give an example of a country that has seen an increase in LDS conversions after gaining greater access to information and the internet? No?

But time will tell...I could be wrong and maybe Kenya will be the exception. 

You, and others on this board have shown a great propensity to be "learned" in far too much that just isn't so.

You don't really want people to be "educated." You want them to be spoon fed anti Mormon drivel.  Americans aren't more educated than anywhere else.  Ask the the average American to find Kenya on a map.  What we are is more worldly, materialistic, self centered, and prideful than the rest of the world.  We're unhappy, medicated, and woefully ignorant of most things spiritual.  The "science" you and others tout constantly has more to do with reinforcing and justifying behavior than the advancement of human achievement. Even the most well intentioned fields like climate change seems more aimed at making people feel better about their activism than actually doing anything productive or meaningful.

Most of the "education" in the west comes from regurgitated talking points from Bill Nye "The Science Guy" and Neil Tyson...both of which have sold their objectivity and credibility to being political superstars.

Besides, critics of the church have benefited from the "shock" factor of people finding out the history of the church with little to no foundational understanding, and with little support structure within the church to help deal with questions and concerns.  I think the church is addressing this and will soon get out in front of them to help mitigate the damage done.  I see the current stagnation as a case of growing pains.  Something to learn from and improve upon. 

People want standards.  They want self improvement.  They want to believe in something greater than themselves.  And when they find it becoming harder to find places to associate themselves with that offers them these things...the church will be there waiting.

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

Secularism tends to lead people to less faith.  The problem with secularism is that people become prideful and they don't have enough kids.  Eventually the secular society falls and is replaced by a less secular society.  Case in point is Europe.  The Europeans have become less religious and have fewer kids.  The less secular immigrants like Muslims come in and replace them.  The issue really has little do so with information about the the Church on the internet.  Most secular people know little or anything about the Church. They just don't care about religion.  The Church has had a hard time in Europe for decades. Long before the internet the people in Europe did not convert to the Church or really to any church in large numbers.  Right now we are in the peace and prosperity part of the pride cycle.  Once war, economic collapse, and other things start, the secular people will become humble and will become more religious.

A lot of broad generalizations...oh and secular societies are the happiest in earth... go figure 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

A lot of broad generalizations...oh and secular societies are the happiest in earth... go figure 

And this is not a broad generalization?

[SteveO]

28 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

A lot of broad generalizations...oh and secular societies are the happiest in earth... go figure 

https://apnews.com/4c35631d6bd8489b9fae164d8e2d5c74/China-ponders-public-morality-after-video-of-gruesome-death

uh...yeah

From the article:

"In the West, law, faith and morality are a three-legged stool,” said Ma Ai, a sociologist at the China University of Political Science and Law. “Our legal system is catching up, but we don’t have religion and a new moral system has not established after China transformed away from a traditional, collectivist society.”

[carbon dioxide]

42 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

A lot of broad generalizations...oh and secular societies are the happiest in earth... go figure 

They also flame out faster than other societies.  The end end product of secularism is destruction.  You will see it in Europe in the not too distant future. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

You, and others on this board have shown a great propensity to be "learned" in far too much that just isn't so.

You don't really want people to be "educated." You want them to be spoon fed anti Mormon drivel.  Americans aren't more educated than anywhere else.  Ask the the average American to find Kenya on a map.  What we are is more worldly, materialistic, self centered, and prideful than the rest of the world.  We're unhappy, medicated, and woefully ignorant of most things spiritual.  The "science" you and others tout constantly has more to do with reinforcing and justifying behavior than the advancement of human achievement. Even the most well intentioned fields like climate change seems more aimed at making people feel better about their activism than actually doing anything productive or meaningful.

Most of the "education" in the west comes from regurgitated talking points from Bill Nye "The Science Guy" and Neil Tyson...both of which have sold their objectivity and credibility to being political superstars.

Besides, critics of the church have benefited from the "shock" factor of people finding out the history of the church with little to no foundational understanding, and with little support structure within the church to help deal with questions and concerns.  I think the church is addressing this and will soon get out in front of them to help mitigate the damage done.  I see the current stagnation as a case of growing pains.  Something to learn from and improve upon. 

People want standards.  They want self improvement.  They want to believe in something greater than themselves.  And when they find it becoming harder to find places to associate themselves with that offers them these things...the church will be there waiting.

Again full of assumptions, unsupported accusations and board stroke pigeon holing and you haven't even addressed the OP. 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Thinking]

11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Am I only one here that has noticed that the church is growing only in areas of the world were they can still control their narrative? In those parts of the world where the people have access to education, access to internet and access to information ...the church is at zero or negative growth.  

So where people are uneducated and the church can promote a controlled narrative we see growth...we're people are educated have access to information and the church can't control its narrative the church is not growing

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You got us.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is part of a massive plot to keep the world uneducated and ignorant.

Controlling the narrative is much different than being uneducated and ignorant in the context that you referenced.

BTW, the Church is in fact still trying to control the narrative.

Quote

Acquiring Spiritual Knowledge

"My dear friends, questions are good. Questions are good if they are inspired questions, asked in faith, and asked of credible sources where the Spirit will direct and confirm the answer."

"Explain to students that this portion of the learning experience on acquiring spiritual knowledge is intended to help them learn three principles that can guide them when they have questions or are presented with questions from others: act in faith, examine concepts and questions with an eternal perspective, and seek further understanding through divinely appointed sources."

"James did not say, ‘If any of you lack wisdom, let him Google!"

"To help students be aware of additional resources that can help them locate divinely appointed sources, consider telling them about (and if possible, showing them or inviting them to locate on their electronic devices) the official Church website mormonnewsroom.org. Explain that on this website the Church clarifies information regarding various issues of public interest related to the Church and corrects partial or incorrect information that is reported in the media. Also consider showing students the Church’s Gospel Topics page at lds.org/topics. The Gospel Topics essays contain valuable and forthright information on many difficult historical and doctrinal issues."

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Thinking

[SteveO]

14 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Again full of assumptions, unsupported accusations and board stroke pidgin holing and you haven't even addressed the OP. 

Are you the only one allowed to make assumptions, unsupported accusations and broad stroke pigeonholing then?

I adressed what you had said--after which you had the gall to accuse others of making assumptions and broad generalizations?

Unreal

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Besides, critics of the church have benefited from the "shock" factor of people finding out the history of the church with little to no foundational understanding, and with little support structure within the church to help deal with questions and concerns.  I think the church is addressing this and will soon get out in front of them to help mitigate the damage done.

There would have been no "shock" if the Church would have initially been forthright about its history and provided the alleged foundational understanding and support.

[SteveO]

15 minutes ago, Thinking said:

There would have been no "shock" if the Church would have initially been forthright about its history and provided the alleged foundational understanding and support.

Like I said, I think it was a tough lesson learned, and the church is taking the steps to remedy it. 

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

You, and others on this board have shown a great propensity to be "learned" in far too much that just isn't so.

You don't really want people to be "educated." You want them to be spoon fed anti Mormon drivel.  Americans aren't more educated than anywhere else.  Ask the the average American to find Kenya on a map.  What we are is more worldly, materialistic, self centered, and prideful than the rest of the world.  We're unhappy, medicated, and woefully ignorant of most things spiritual.  The "science" you and others tout constantly has more to do with reinforcing and justifying behavior than the advancement of human achievement. Even the most well intentioned fields like climate change seems more aimed at making people feel better about their activism than actually doing anything productive or meaningful.

Most of the "education" in the west comes from regurgitated talking points from Bill Nye "The Science Guy" and Neil Tyson...both of which have sold their objectivity and credibility to being political superstars.

Besides, critics of the church have benefited from the "shock" factor of people finding out the history of the church with little to no foundational understanding, and with little support structure within the church to help deal with questions and concerns.  I think the church is addressing this and will soon get out in front of them to help mitigate the damage done.  I see the current stagnation as a case of growing pains.  Something to learn from and improve upon. 

People want standards.  They want self improvement.  They want to believe in something greater than themselves.  And when they find it becoming harder to find places to associate themselves with that offers them these things...the church will be there waiting.

There is so much wrong with this post that I don't even know where to start.

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, Thinking said:

There would have been no "shock" if the Church would have initially been forthright about its history and provided the alleged foundational understanding and support.

I doubt that there would have been none given how ignorant many people are about stories they have heard all the time, but never really thought about because they have never felt the need before.

I remember one person who was shocked about Laban's death, but when questioned he knew Laban was drunk, etc., it had just never clicked into a picture before.

There would be a lot less though.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

There is so much wrong with this post that I don't even know where to start.

I don't agree with all the post, but Americans in general in my experience think they are more educated and aware than other countries while in reality they are generally quite isolated in their thinking and experience. (The difference in international news available generally in Canadian and Russian media compared to America is truly shocking.)  I have heard many jokes from Americans in many states about immigrants' accents when these people know multiple languages and the Americans but one, for example.

The countries I have been in or studied, all First World and it is merely a very small snapshot so it is possible I am overstating it, all have their own arrogant self images in many of their population.  Human beings seem very good at seeing where others go wrong while being blind to their own failings (undoubtedly there is some personal fault I am blind to as well).  In general, I have gotten the impression from each country, that the leadership and population in general see themselves as the most enlightened in human understanding and each gets offended when another country tries to suggest they can learn from them (the examples I know well are of America, but it probably happens with others, I am just highly attuned to when America puts its foot in its mouth or starts to bullying while thinking they are actually helping/teaching plus since moving from Canada, I have grown to hate news because so much is useless chatter that I don't make much effort to pay attention anymore...a definite fault, but nothing that I have read or heard seems to indicate a major change of heart and quite a bit makes it appear it has gotten worse).

Edited June 12, 2017 by Calm

[california boy]

12 hours ago, juliann said:

You might want to merely ask the question by calling all practicing Mormons uneducated and dumb rather than targeting darker skinned people. Just sayin'. 

I think you are trying to twist what johnny said into some kind of racist remark which is very unfair.  Do you really think that internet access and being more aware of the exposure of some early church history has not been a factor in the slowing of church growth????  Rather than try and twist his remarks, maybe you could comment on what he actually pointed out.

[clarkgoble]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

Controlling the narrative is much different than being uneducated and ignorant in the context that you referenced.

BTW, the Church is in fact still trying to control the narrative.

I think the Church more than realizes they can't control the narrative. Those who thought they could realized even when they thought they were back in the 90's they weren't. These days at best they're trying to shape the narrative or at least present an alternative narrative. But control the narrative? Both Hinkley and Oaks were far to smart to think that.

[clarkgoble]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

There would have been no "shock" if the Church would have initially been forthright about its history and provided the alleged foundational understanding and support.

I'm personally skeptical of that. While I've long been an advocate for comprehensive history and an inoculation framework for controversial history, I also strongly think this isn't the main driver of issues. The obvious reason for that is we're doing better than most Christian sects, have a higher retention in the US of any sect/religion with non-ethnic ties,  and the real story is the rise of the Nones. That's not to say it isn't a primary driver for a small number of people but I think that number is exaggerated.

I think there are other reasons such as demographics (marrying late, having fewer kids), political (widening political gulf with less sympathy for other side), and conceptual (basic drivers of Christian adherence such as the notion of sin simply are becoming alien to most people).