Church growth slowing according to the SL Trib.

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm personally skeptical of that. While I've long been an advocate for comprehensive history and an inoculation framework for controversial history, I also strongly think this isn't the main driver of issues. The obvious reason for that is we're doing better than most Christian sects, have a higher retention in the US of any sect/religion with non-ethnic ties,  and the real story is the rise of the Nones. That's not to say it isn't a primary driver for a small number of people but I think that number is exaggerated.

I think there are other reasons such as demographics (marrying late, having fewer kids), political (widening political gulf with less sympathy for other side), and conceptual (basic drivers of Christian adherence such as the notion of sin simply are becoming alien to most people). [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

Indeed.  As the great Dan Peterson put it once, "21st-century moderns have lost their fear and respect for the Divine, coming to think of God, instead, as everyone's ever-loving, ever-supportive, never-judgmental Pal."  

[rodheadlee]

On 6/11/2017 at 8:51 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

Am I only one here that has noticed that the church is growing only in areas of the world were they can still control their narrative? In those parts of the world where the people have access to education, access to internet and access to information ...the church is at zero or negative growth.  

So where people are uneducated and the church can promote a controlled narrative we see growth...we're people are educated have access to information and the church can't control its narrative the church is not growing

I can assure you the internet works just as well in the 3rd world as it does in the USA. Google translate does as well. It's typical of haughty Americans to think they are smarter than the rest of the world.

[Kenngo1969]

Dan Peterson has a similar thread on his Blog.  I posted the following [that is, Kenngo1969] over there, and I thought it bears repeating here.  (Not trying to start any board wars.  Hope this is OK).  Emphasis added to clarify who is responsible for the material quoted below, that is, I am responsible for it, not Dan.

Quote

 

By no means am I suggesting that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will accept into its ranks those who do not have at least fledgling testimonies of its foundational claims and core doctrines. However, as time goes on, I believe more people who now are apatheistic or who are only vaguely religious will come to the realization that life, for all of its possible richness which may come from so many quarters, actually is rather hollow without some sort of a Supreme Being or Higher Power, along with the attendant coherent moral framework that the existence of such a being implies, at its center.

Perhaps more than a few such people, who might have been inclined to reject the tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ for their supposed "strangeness," will, instead, be drawn to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ as promulgated in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for its ability to provide that which they had been lacking, which I allude to in the foregoing paragraph.

In any case, reports of the imminent demise of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are greatly exaggerated.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[clarkgoble]

I think the idea that meaning is important is right. I think Dan is wrong if he thinks only religion can fulfill that. I think political views have always been able to function as a quasi-religion - Marxism in the 20th century being but one example.

[Johnnie Cake]

20 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

They also flame out faster than other societies.  The end end product of secularism is destruction.  You will see it in Europe in the not too distant future. 

CFR that 1. Secular societies flame out faster than other societies. 2. that the end end product of secularism is destruction.

[Johnnie Cake]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

I think you are trying to twist what johnny said into some kind of racist remark which is very unfair.  Do you really think that internet access and being more aware of the exposure of some early church history has not been a factor in the slowing of church growth????  Rather than try and twist his remarks, maybe you could comment on what he actually pointed out.

Which is why I didn't give it the courtesy of a reply...it is a false premises to begin with. Classic Strawman

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I can assure you the internet works just as well in the 3rd world as it does in the USA. Google translate does as well. It's typical of haughty Americans to think they are smarter than the rest of the world.

Yep.

Just this morning I was chatting with one of our former missionaries from the Islands. Last week, he uploaded from Tonga his wedding photos for me, and this morning he was was video-chatting from Fiji, where he is honeymooning. I went to sleep last night to the sound of my housemate using a web app to chat with his family in West Africa. Later today I'll be using Facebook to let some of my best friends in Indonesia know that a new Indonesian Elder has just arrived in our ward.

The whole notion that Church growth can only be explained by lack of access to online information is a specious argument, lacking any empirical evidence and designed to make smug apostates feel even more superior.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

CFR that 1. Secular societies flame out faster than other societies. 2. that the end end product of secularism is destruction.

 

You lack a certain amount of self awareness

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I think the idea that meaning is important is right. I think Dan is wrong if he thinks only religion can fulfill that. I think political views have always been able to function as a quasi-religion - Marxism in the 20th century being but one example.

Please don't attribute anything I write above to Dan.  Those thoughts are not his; they're mine.  That said, while I think such an endeavor would be difficult without believing in a Supreme Being and/or without some sort of faith-based paradigm, if someone who doesn't happen to believe in a Supreme Being nonetheless believes in doing good for his fellow beings, in doing unto others as he would have them do unto him, in making life as good as he can make it for those within his sphere of influence for as long as he can before (from his perspective) succumbing to the void, and so on, more power to him: "Inasmuch as men do good [men of whatever religious persuasion, or even of no particular religious persuasion at all], they shall in nowise lose their reward" (Doctrine & Covenants 58:26).

P.S.: And as far as political views vis-a-vis religious convictions are concerned, I'm with Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve, who once said (paraphrasing) that he finds some truth in liberalism and some truth in conservatism [and surely other political views/philosophies could be included in this list], but no salvation in any of them.

P.P.S.: And as much meaning as someone may draw from a political philosophy or other, similar pursuit (e.g., environmentalism), frankly, such pursuits, no matter how worthwhile they may be in the short term and no matter how much meaning they may impart to the lives of their adherents, don't do much (if, indeed, they do anything) to answer "The Terrible Questions." 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

 

You lack a certain amount of self awareness

Because after all it is all about me right? That's why church growth is declining right...geez

with all due respect, I left this board for 2 months...due mainly to the bullying, boorish behavior exhibited by some posters.  While I get I haven't been gone very long I had hoped that maybe things had or would improve ...but nothing has changed. Honestly so many here are so insecure about your church. Instead of discussing the op threads still disintegrate into personal attacks against anyone who offer alternative points of view.  It gets so old...

Edited June 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[SteveO]

On 6/11/2017 at 4:17 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

calm. All I'm doing is connecting the dots. It's not rocket science that as more Kenyan's gain greater access to the internet and access to more information on the church in English and their native Swahili tongue the trend will follow that of other countries with access to more information.

What "trend" are you looking at? What other countries?  What data are you seeing that allows you to make this observation?  CFR

[SteveO]

On 6/11/2017 at 8:27 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

A lot of broad generalizations...oh and secular societies are the happiest in earth... go figure 

CFR 

[SteveO]

On 6/11/2017 at 9:51 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

Am I only one here that has noticed that the church is growing only in areas of the world were they can still control their narrative? In those parts of the world where the people have access to education, access to internet and access to information ...the church is at zero or negative growth.  

So where people are uneducated and the church can promote a controlled narrative we see growth...we're people are educated have access to information and the church can't control its narrative the church is not growing

CFR for whatever you're reading that allows you to make a statement like this

[Johnnie Cake]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I can assure you the internet works just as well in the 3rd world as it does in the USA. Google translate does as well. It's typical of haughty Americans to think they are smarter than the rest of the world.

Yes it does...so what reasons do you offer for growth in third world and decline in first world countries?

[Johnnie Cake]

4 minutes ago, SteveO said:

CFR for whatever you're reading that allows you to make a statement like this

It's a POV,  a theory,  good grief did you even read the article?

Edited June 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[SteveO]

25 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Because after all it is all about me right? That's why church growth is declining right...geez

with all due respect, I left this board for 2 months...due mainly to the bullying, boorish behavior exhibited by some posters.  While I get I haven't been gone very long I had hoped that maybe things had or would improve ...but nothing has changed. Honestly so many here are so insecure about your church. Instead of discussing the op threads still disintegrate into personal attacks against anyone who offer alternative points of view.  It gets so old...

Its just rich that you're asking for CFR's, and accusing others of making broad generalizations, when you've provided no references for your more inflammatory opinions and sweeping generalizations 

[SteveO]

5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It's a POV,  a theory,  good grief did you even read the article?

It's a point of view to say "Am I only one here that has noticed that the church is growing only in areas of the world were they can still control their narrative?"?

Am I the only person to notice that atheism grows in areas of the world that has no morality and rule of law?

Does that sound like something I could say without backing it up?

[Johnnie Cake]

8 minutes ago, SteveO said:

It's a point of view to say "Am I only one here that has noticed that the church is growing only in areas of the world were they can still control their narrative?"?

Am I the only person to notice that atheism grows in areas of the world that has no morality and rule of law?

Does that sound like something I could say without backing it up?

But the church still can control its narrative in third world countries are you disputing this?  I feel that is self evident. And it is losing ground in first world countries as the article states

15 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Its just rich that you're asking for CFR's, and accusing others of making broad generalizations, when you've provided no references for your more inflammatory opinions and sweeping generalizations 

So this post below isn't full of broad generalizations? What would call it?

 

"Secularism tends to lead people to less faith.  The problem with secularism is that people become prideful and they don't have enough kids.  Eventually the secular society falls and is replaced by a less secular society.  Case in point is Europe.  The Europeans have become less religious and have fewer kids.  The less secular immigrants like Muslims come in and replace them.  The issue really has little do so with information about the the Church on the internet.  Most secular people know little or anything about the Church. They just don't care about religion.  The Church has had a hard time in Europe for decades. Long before the internet the people in Europe did not convert to the Church or really to any church in large numbers.  Right now we are in the peace and prosperity part of the pride cycle.  Once war, economic collapse, and other things start, the secular people will become humble and will become more religious."

Edited June 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[SteveO]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

But the church still can control its narrative in third world countries are you disputing this?  I feel that is self evident. And it is losing ground in first world countries as the article states

So this post below isn't full of broad generalizations? What would call it?

Calm gave you an example in the form of Kenya that showed your statement wasn't "self evident".  

All anyone is doing is giving opinions...you're the only one blowing off other's opinions because you deem them  "broad generalizations" and calling for CFR's.  

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by SteveO

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

But the church still can control its narrative in third world countries are you disputing this?

I'll dispute it. Happily. I've had two housemates from two different West African nations in the past few years. Both of them are converts. The first was baptised there and also served a mission there before migrating; the other was baptised here but just returned from three years back in Africa. Both of them would laugh out loud about your 'self-evident' assertion that Africans are somehow less familiar with challenges to and critiques of the Church's narrative. In fact, when I get home tonight, I might actually ask my current housemate his opinion so that I can quote him for you.

I understand that you really want the whole 'internet killed the Church' meme to be true, but you are not speaking from an informed position. And whenever anyone tries to suggest that you aren't, you automatically label such posters as 'insecure' and interpret their contributions as 'personal attacks' and 'bullying'. It does indeed get old...

Edited June 13, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[SteveO]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In fact, when I get home tonight, I might actually ask my current housemate his opinion so that I can quote him for you.

I'm going to make a prediction--let me know if I'm right:

They already know about the priesthood ban

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Calm gave you an example in the form of Kenya that showed your statement wasn't "self evident".  

All anyone is doing is giving opinions...you're the only one blowing off other's opinions because you deem them  "broad generalizations" and calling for CFR's.  

 

No calm gave an example in the form of Kenya and expected you and others to accept it (which you did) as the standard and not the exception. She hoped that you would accept kenya and then apply its internet penetration and apply it as if its numbers applied throughout all of Africa.  Did you study her link?  I'm guessing not because if you had you would not have embarrassed yourself and you would have discovered that among African nations Kenya IS the exception and not the rule...also are you aware that if you removed the Muslim African nations and only look at those that allow Mormon missionaries...internet access is even worse ...but you just accepted Calms premise...interesting I didn't want to bring this up earlier in the thread because I didn't want to be the one to embarrass her...well that didn't work.

Did you even read my first post in this thread?  Can you explain why a fraction of claimed LDS members self identity as members?  Why other denominations member claimed number are actually confirmed when compared to their members who self identity? Why would this be.

All I see in this thread are believers ignoring the issues brought up in the article and asserting that all is great in Zion...well great...but frankly any organization that loses 75% of it new converts within a year is an organization with sever retention problems...but go ahead...I'm sure that's my fault also

 

good night

[sunstoned]

On 6/11/2017 at 10:39 PM, Calm said:

I don't agree with all the post, but Americans in general in my experience think they are more educated and aware than other countries while in reality they are generally quite isolated in their thinking and experience. (The difference in international news available generally in Canadian and Russian media compared to America is truly shocking.)  I have heard many jokes from Americans in many states about immigrants' accents when these people know multiple languages and the Americans but one, for example.

The countries I have been in or studied, all First World and it is merely a very small snapshot so it is possible I am overstating it, all have their own arrogant self images in many of their population.  Human beings seem very good at seeing where others go wrong while being blind to their own failings (undoubtedly there is some personal fault I am blind to as well).  In general, I have gotten the impression from each country, that the leadership and population in general see themselves as the most enlightened in human understanding and each gets offended when another country tries to suggest they can learn from them (the examples I know well are of America, but it probably happens with others, I am just highly attuned to when America puts its foot in its mouth or starts to bullying while thinking they are actually helping/teaching plus since moving from Canada, I have grown to hate news because so much is useless chatter that I don't make much effort to pay attention anymore...a definite fault, but nothing that I have read or heard seems to indicate a major change of heart and quite a bit makes it appear it has gotten worse).

You do bring up a good point.  I have worked in Namibia and did notice some resentment of Americans and Europeans because of their attitudes.  

[juliann]

On 6/11/2017 at 0:05 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

  But the facts seem to suggest that in countries with limited access to education, internet and where the church can control its own narrative they are growing...and in countries with access to education, internet and where the church can't control its narrative they are not. Is there a correlation?  I don't know...I'm merely asking the question.

 Here is your answer:

Quote

 

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/2017/06/the-internet-and-lds-growth.html

Factors identified that favor or deter LDS growth and statistical findings on internet usage and LDS growth rates indicate that the positive and negative influences of the internet on LDS growth are nearly equal in strength resulting in little to no fluctuation in membership and congregational growth trends from the recent past in most countries around the world.  Rather, fluctuations in membership and congregational growth rates appear caused by changes in convert baptismal standards, mission and area policies, initiatives in mission outreach expansion, and the level of religiosity and receptivity to nontraditional Christian denominations in individual countries.  Countries in which internet usage is widespread have generally exhibited linear membership growth trends before and after the advent of the internet, suggesting that the internet has a limited influence on the number of convert baptisms if there is any relationship at all.  Congregational growth rates have remained stagnant or have declined in the past decade in many of the countries with the highest rates of internet usage, but this has been largely the result of other factors.

 

 

 

 

Good night.

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by juliann

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Yes it does...so what reasons do you offer for growth in third world and decline in first world countries?

Life is hard there are not so many secular trinkets to take your eye off the ball.