The Worthy / Unworthy Dichotomy within the LDS Church

[rodheadlee]

On 6/6/2017 at 9:43 AM, RevTestament said:

In my book WoW is not a commandment, but guidance for blessings. If you want the blessings, try to follow it. 
I suppose right now that includes ability to receive temple covenants. Is that what is delaying your temple sealing?

Yes.We are battle weary from fighting other addictions so we lack quitting smoking. To make a long story short it's been over 8 years so i guess we could quit resting on our laurels  and take up the battle against tobacco addiction with total effort.We pass the TR qualifications in every other way. We haven't given up but I'm only down to 1/2 pack a day.

[RevTestament]

25 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes.We are battle weary from fighting other addictions so we lack quitting smoking. To make a long story short it's been over 8 years so i guess we could quit resting on our laurels  and take up the battle against tobacco addiction with total effort.We pass the TR qualifications in every other way. We haven't given up but I'm only down to 1/2 pack a day.

That's great. Some have success with nicotine patches or vapor cigarettes. Hang tough.

[USU78]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes.We are battle weary from fighting other addictions so we lack quitting smoking. To make a long story short it's been over 8 years so i guess we could quit resting on our laurels  and take up the battle against tobacco addiction with total effort.We pass the TR qualifications in every other way. We haven't given up but I'm only down to 1/2 pack a day.

You are stronger than that half a pack

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes.We are battle weary from fighting other addictions so we lack quitting smoking. To make a long story short it's been over 8 years so i guess we could quit resting on our laurels  and take up the battle against tobacco addiction with total effort.We pass the TR qualifications in every other way. We haven't given up but I'm only down to 1/2 pack a day.

I think those of us who end up being just a mite perplexed at the size of the reward given to some of our brothers and sisters in the next life must factor in the enormity of the private battles fought and, at length, won, by our spirit siblings.  But just because your myopic brothers and sisters are unaware of the magnitude of those battles (indeed, of those eventual victories) doesn't mean that God, with His perfect sight, also is unaware.  I wish you well.  

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, USU78 said:

You are stronger than that half a pack

I agree.  Sometimes, the last leg of the journey, no matter how short that leg is, seems the hardest.  Best wishes in your conquest.  God values the effort expended in the battle as much as, if not more than, the actual conquest.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes.We are battle weary from fighting other addictions so we lack quitting smoking. To make a long story short it's been over 8 years so i guess we could quit resting on our laurels  and take up the battle against tobacco addiction with total effort.We pass the TR qualifications in every other way. We haven't given up but I'm only down to 1/2 pack a day.

Drink an unhealthy amount of energy drinks. It is not technically against the Word of Wisdom and it should distract you from smoking.

Hope this helps.

Edited June 9, 2017 by The Nehor

[Meerkat]

On 6/8/2017 at 5:31 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

I think those of us who end up being just a mite perplexed at the size of the reward given to some of our brothers and sisters in the next life must factor in the enormity of the private battles fought and, at length, won, by our spirit siblings.  But just because your myopic brothers and sisters are unaware of the magnitude of those battles (indeed, of those eventual victories) doesn't mean that God, with His perfect sight, also is unaware.  I wish you well.  

I recall, as a new convert, listening to the background noise of toddlers-- in Church.  I remember turning to my young bride with a knowing look that said "When we have our children, they will be quiet and reverent  because they will love and respect us." Imagine our surprise when we discovered that our children had minds of their own, much like the other toddlers in Church.

As time went on, our children became more quiet, reverent and apparently compliant.  That led to great pride in the wonderful job we were doing as parents, by contrast to others we could see with troubled children.  Of course, we carefully concealed the condescension we felt.  I also managed to hide my swollen shoulders and sprained elbows from patting myself on the back.

One day, after humbly expressing pride in my Eagle Scout, returned missionary sons and RM daughter, one beloved child took me aside and revealed "Dad, that wasn't my Eagle award. That was yours. I could care less."  "That wasn't my Seminary graduation, that was yours." And, by requesting to have his name removed from the records of the Church, was saying "That wasn't my mission, my Temple marriage, my happy family.  That was yours."

President Faust counseled:
“It is very unfair and unkind to judge conscientious and faithful parents because some of their children rebel or stray from the teachings and love of their parents. Fortunate are the couples who have children and grandchildren who bring them comfort and satisfaction. We should be considerate of those worthy, righteous parents who struggle and suffer with disobedient children.
“One of my friends used to say, ‘If you have never had any problems with your children, just wait awhile.’ ”

I believe a wonderful silver lining to having rebellious children is tasting, in a minute way, the sorrow Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother must have felt when a full 1/3 of all their spirit children rebelled, never to return.  It is the perspective gained.  I believe many families eventually gain this perspective through their own, sad, experience.

The Scriptures are more meaningful as is General Conference. And the parents of wayward children, and the children themselves, are sweeter in a way, more worthy of love, sacrifice and prayer.  It is a new perspective on why, and what desperation drove God to send the Savior to suffer for us.  We gain glimpses of it because that's how we feel about our own children.  I believe the problem of Myopia will eventuaLily be resolve due to the things we suffer.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I recall, as a new convert, listening to the background noise of toddlers-- in Church.  I remember turning to my young bride with a knowing look that said "When we have our children, they will be quiet and reverent  because they will love and respect us." Imagine our surprise when we discovered that our children had minds of their own, much like the other toddlers in Church.

As time went on, our children became more quiet, reverent and apparently compliant.  That led to great pride in the wonderful job we were doing as parents, by contrast to others we could see with troubled children.  Of course, we carefully concealed the condescension we felt.  I also managed to hide my swollen shoulders and sprained elbows from patting myself on the back.

One day, after humbly expressing pride in my Eagle Scout, returned missionary sons and RM daughter, one beloved child took me aside and revealed "Dad, that wasn't my Eagle award. That was yours. I could care less."  "That wasn't my Seminary graduation, that was yours." And, by requesting to have his name removed from the records of the Church, was saying "That wasn't my mission, my Temple marriage, my happy family.  That was yours."

President Faust counseled:
“It is very unfair and unkind to judge conscientious and faithful parents because some of their children rebel or stray from the teachings and love of their parents. Fortunate are the couples who have children and grandchildren who bring them comfort and satisfaction. We should be considerate of those worthy, righteous parents who struggle and suffer with disobedient children.
“One of my friends used to say, ‘If you have never had any problems with your children, just wait awhile.’ ”

I believe a wonderful silver lining to having rebellious children is tasting, in a minute way, the sorrow Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother must have felt when a full 1/3 of all their spirit children rebelled, never to return.  It is the perspective gained.  I believe many families eventually gain this perspective through their own, sad, experience.

The Scriptures are more meaningful as is General Conference. And the parents of wayward children, and the children themselves, are sweeter in a way, more worthy of love, sacrifice and prayer.  It is a new perspective on why, and what desperation drove God to send the Savior to suffer for us.  We gain glimpses of it because that's how we feel about our own children.  I believe the problem of Myopia will eventuaLily be resolve due to the things we suffer.

Having never been married and thus, being my only child, I cannot imagine what watching a child make those kindd of choices (and hearing the true motivation for the good choices made) has been like for you and your wife as parents.  I'm sorry.    

[Kenngo1969]

In answer to the poll, whether someone is worthy or not is a matter between him, his priesthood leaders, and his Lord and Savior.  I've never heard rank-and-file members discuss the temple worthiness of other members (though, to hear some tell it, such discussion is rampant, and is as common in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as discussion of what one had for breakfast that morning: I guess I'm simply an odd duck! ), and when I've heard priesthood leaders discuss the temple worthiness of other members, it has only been in the spirit of great love, care, and concern.

[Rain]

On 6/4/2017 at 9:42 PM, Five Solas said:

I'm curious who you think is doing the "confusing."  Is there a particular statement on either thread you could cite as example?

But leaving all previous posts & context aside, let me play devil's advocate for a moment.  Let me tell you why worthiness and the worth of a soul go together in Mormonism:  Only the worthy soul inherits the LDS Celestial Kingdom and thereafter enjoys infinite increase.  Now that's an infinitely more valuable soul, by mathematical standard. 

;0)

--Erik

Some people, when they open a business, will save the first dollar made and display it. Every dollar made after that has the same monetary value (ignoring inflation),  but is not worthy to be called the first one.

My loved one is not less valued by me because he is not temple worthy. If anything, one might say he is more valued by me because I have spent more time working with him, praying over him, crying over him than I have done over other loved ones.

Being worthy is different than being valued and as others have said, context matters. 

[Okrahomer]

3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

The Scriptures are more meaningful as is General Conference. And the parents of wayward children, and the children themselves, are sweeter in a way, more worthy of love, sacrifice and prayer.  It is a new perspective on why, and what desperation drove God to send the Savior to suffer for us.  We gain glimpses of it because that's how we feel about our own children.  I believe the problem of Myopia will eventuaLily be resolve due to the things we suffer.

I wish I could give dozens of rep points for your posts.

Several years ago when we were still newlyweds, my wife and I were attending a get-together for her immediate family.  Most of us were outside enjoying the weather and the company when the peace was shattered by the sounds of a very loud argument coming from within the house.  Two of my wife's family members were having an intense disagreement about some long-past unresolved issue.  My wife raced into the house to try to calm things down.

I sat completely still next to my father-in-law--a wonderfully gentle soul who was an Air Force pilot in both Korea and Vietnam.  After the voices from within died down, my non-member father-in-law (my wife joined the Church as an adult) turned to me and with some pain and great embarrassment said:  "You must think our family is so dysfunctional."

Without thinking, I replied:  "Not any more dysfunctional then my family--ALL families are dysfunctional in one way or another, don't you think?"  

He nodded his agreement and looked at me as if seeing me for the first time.  Nothing more was said.  My wife returned, and an uneasy peace was restored.  

Thinking about it later, I realized that my unfiltered response had opened a window between my wife's father and me--a kind of "grace" if you will.  So even with all my great imperfections, he had finally decided that I was "worthy" of his daughter.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Okrahomer

[Meerkat]

32 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

My loved one is not less valued by me because he is not temple worthy. If anything, one might say he is more valued by me because I have spent more time working with him, praying over him, crying over him than I have done over other loved ones.

Being worthy is different than being valued and as others have said, context matters. 

We are all children of infinite worth.  Heavenly Father has invested greatly in each of us.  And we invest greatly in those we love.  Rain has made the important point that we owe much of our spiritual growth and celestial preparation to our struggling loved ones.   God knows the end from the beginning, and what He wants to make of us.  Is it possible that a loving Heavenly Father placed us in these circumstances for a Divine purpose?  What better experience to teach us how to "suffer long" with kindness?  How better to turn our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh as we learn how to live according to the pure love of Christ?

Elder Maxwell said, in his talk "Irony-- the Crust on the Bread of Adversity"

"Amid life’s varied ironies, you and I may begin to wonder, Did not God notice this torturous turn of events? And if He noticed, why did He permit it? Am I not valued?
Our planning itself often assumes that our destiny is largely in our own hands. Then come intruding events, first elbowing aside, then evicting what was anticipated and even earned. Hence, we can be offended by events as well as by people.
Irony may involve not only unexpected suffering but also undeserved suffering. We feel we deserved better, and yet we fared worse. We had other plans, even commendable plans. Did they not count? A physician, laboriously trained to help the sick, now, because of his own illness, cannot do so. For a period, a diligent prophet of the Lord was an “idle witness.” (Morm. 3:16.) Frustrating conditions keep more than a few of us from making our appointed rounds."

But perhaps those very "frustrating conditions" are what our University of Life was intended to provide.  I am most taught by my struggling loved ones.

(Charity) is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth:

How do we learn this greatest of all lessons without being rejected by those who should love us?  How did Christ learn? Was it not by the things He suffered?  Following Him, why do we expect our path to be different?

 

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Heavenly Father has invested greatly in each of us.  And we invest greatly in those we love.  Rain has made the important point that we owe much of our spiritual growth and celestial preparation to our struggling loved ones.   God knows the end from the beginning, and what He wants to make of us.  Is it possible that a loving Heavenly Father placed us in these circumstances for a Divine purpose?  What better experience to teach us how to "suffer long" with kindness?  How better to turn our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh as we learn how to live according to the pure love of Christ?...

...How do we learn this greatest of all lessons without being rejected by those who should love us?  How did Christ learn? Was it not by the things He suffered?  Following Him, why do we expect our path to be different?

Edited June 10, 2017 by hagoth7

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

In answer to the poll, whether someone is worthy or not is a matter between him, his priesthood leaders, and his Lord and Savior.  I've never heard rank-and-file members discuss the temple worthiness of other members (though, to hear some tell it, such discussion is rampant, and is as common in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as discussion of what one had for breakfast that morning: I guess I'm simply an odd duck! ), and when I've heard priesthood leaders discuss the temple worthiness of other members, it has only been in the spirit of great love, care, and concern.

I agree completely

I honestly don't know how people come up with this stuff- it's like there is the church of strict judgmental fundamentalists and then the church I know, one of kindness and genuine effort to be Christlike

I don't know if it is where these folks live geographically who see it so differently or "where they live" spiritually.

All I know is I do not want to live where they live whichever it is.

[mfbukowski]

On 6/8/2017 at 5:34 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

I agree.  Sometimes, the last leg of the journey, no matter how short that leg is, seems the hardest.  Best wishes in your conquest.  God values the effort expended in the battle as much as, if not more than, the actual conquest.

Losing weight and keeping it off vs smoking:

Smoking was harder.  It's that last 20 pounds we all dream about, except now it's keeping us out of the temple.

How many of us could do that?

Edited June 10, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 6/8/2017 at 9:47 AM, rodheadlee said:

Yes.We are battle weary from fighting other addictions so we lack quitting smoking. To make a long story short it's been over 8 years so i guess we could quit resting on our laurels  and take up the battle against tobacco addiction with total effort.We pass the TR qualifications in every other way. We haven't given up but I'm only down to 1/2 pack a day.

I get it totally.

Here's the deal as I see it.  I don't think I will burn in hell if I tell you that sacrifice is one of the temple covenants, and it has been around since Adam and Eve were taught to offer sacrifice.

Why?  The Sunday school answer is correct but incomplete and super simplified imo.  Sacrifice is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Savior.   Of course.

But in the temple we are taught to liken ourselves to Adam and Eve.  The temple presentation shows us that each of us IS ADAM and EVE.  Their story and the entire plan of salvation is about our personal lives.

Our fall = Adam's fall which gives us choice between good and evil.  Every single one of us falls, and falls hard hard hard.  It's back to step 1 of the 12 step- each of us is helpless/hopeless without God

Let's just talk symbols here- I believe that Christ really did live and die to atone for our sins, but where the rubber meets the road is what that MEANS in my life

Liken your struggle and sacrifice to the Savior's sacrifice at least qualitatively if not quantitatively.   Yes His sacrifice was infinite etc and ours are piddly compared to his but for US they can be similar to Gethsemane at least as fully as we personally have the ability to comprehend Gethsemane.

It took all He had to go through Gethsemane to make that sacrifice and in likening the gospel to our personal struggles, sometimes we have to give ALL we have to make our personal sacrifices.  

If He can give his all which is infinite you can give your all as weak as we all are incomparison

Each of us has to do that in order to even comprehend a sliver of what He went through.

THAT to me is the covenant of sacrifice.  Do that and you can "overcome the world"

Rev 21

Quote

 

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 3

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It's just a push away, a push away.

To make a slight revision.

You've done it before and you can do it again.  

 

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

... So even with all my great imperfections, he had finally decided that I was "worthy" of his daughter.

And that right there, Brother, is the Rubicon I may never cross.  It seems hard enough to me to prove to someone else that I'm worthy (or at least, that someday, I might be worthy), of her: It seems darn near impossible to prove the same thing to her parents.  

P.S.: For what little this might be worth coming from me, if I ever get the chance, this is how I will propose to her: "If ever there were a time for a man to tell the truth, My Love, this is it, and I have to be honest with you. I doubt I'm the man your parents hoped and dreamed you would fall in love with, but this much I promise you: If you will have me, I will spend the rest of my life and as much of Our Eternity as it takes earnestly striving with every fiber of my being to become That Man!"  

Whoever you are, wherever you are, however long it takes, and whatever it takes, Love You, Dear!  

Edited June 10, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree completely

I honestly don't know how people come up with this stuff- it's like there is the church of strict judgmental fundamentalists and then the church I know, one of kindness and genuine effort to be Christlike

I don't know if it is where these folks live geographically who see it so differently or "where they live" spiritually.

All I know is I do not want to live where they live whichever it is.

It reminds me of the old story about two families who were thinking of moving in to a certain town, and they decided to go check things out and ask around a bit.  One family sees a guy who they're sure must be an old-timer in that community, and one of them asks him, "So, what are the people like here?"  In response, he asks, "What are they like where you come from?" Eager to sing the praises of the community which, alas, they're leaving, the family member says, "The best!  So kind and friendly! Always willing to lend a hand!"  The man responds, "Well, you're fortunate, then, because that's pretty much what you'll find people are like here."  A second is thinking of moving into the community, and they spot the same man, and one of their number decides to ask him the same question, and he offers the same query to his interlocutor.  "We can't wait to leave!" is the response.  "The town is full of gossipers and back-biters and fault-finders.  People are so cold and unfriendly!"  "Well," says the man.  "I hate to disillusion you, but you did ask me for my honest opinion, and I'm afraid that's pretty much what you'll find here."

Just substitute ward, branch, stake, or district for town, and this tale fits perfectly in an LDS context.

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

Some people, when they open a business, will save the first dollar made and display it. Every dollar made after that has the same monetary value (ignoring inflation),  but is not worthy to be called the first one.

My loved one is not less valued by me because he is not temple worthy. If anything, one might say he is more valued by me because I have spent more time working with him, praying over him, crying over him than I have done over other loved ones.

Being worthy is different than being valued and as others have said, context matters. 

+1,000!!!  

[USU78]

20 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

It reminds me of the old story about two families who were thinking of moving in to a certain town, and they decided to go check things out and ask around a bit.  One family sees a guy who they're sure must be an old-timer in that community, and one of them asks him, "So, what are the people like here?"  In response, he asks, "What are they like where you come from?" Eager to sing the praises of the community which, alas, they're leaving, the family member says, "The best!  So kind and friendly! Always willing to lend a hand!"  The man responds, "Well, you're fortunate, then, because that's pretty much what you'll find people are like here."  A second is thinking of moving into the community, and they spot the same man, and one of their number decides to ask him the same question, and he offers the same query to his interlocutor.  "We can't wait to leave!" is the response.  "The town is full of gossipers and back-biters and fault-finders.  People are so cold and unfriendly!"  "Well," says the man.  "I hate to disillusion you, but you did ask me for my honest opinion, and I'm afraid that's pretty much what you'll find here."

Just substitute ward, branch, stake, or district for town, and this tale fits perfectly in an LDS context.

We see the world as we are

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree completely

I honestly don't know how people come up with this stuff- it's like there is the church of strict judgmental fundamentalists and then the church I know, one of kindness and genuine effort to be Christlike

I don't know if it is where these folks live geographically who see it so differently or "where they live" spiritually.

All I know is I do not want to live where they live whichever it is.

You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! [Cue spooky music ...]  

[Tacenda]

 

http://exmormonfoundation.com/files/media/2016Conference/05-MaxZimmer.mp3

Unworthy doesn't even come close to how the church leaders made this man feel. I linked the recording of his story, so no temple content. But a story worthy of listening to . Yes the label "unworthy" is blatant. And I'm surprised he survived the mental shame and abuse.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

And that right there, Brother, is the Rubicon I may never cross.  It seems hard enough to me to prove to someone else that I'm worthy (or at least, that someday, I might be worthy), of her: It seems darn near impossible to prove the same thing to her parents.  

P.S.: For what little this might be worth coming from me, if I ever get the chance, this is how I will propose to her: "If ever there were a time for a man to tell the truth, My Love, this is it, and I have to be honest with you. I doubt I'm the man your parents hoped and dreamed you would fall in love with, but this much I promise you: If you will have me, I will spend the rest of my life and as much of Our Eternity as it takes earnestly striving with every fiber of my being to become That Man!"  

Whoever you are, wherever you are, however long it takes, and whatever it takes, Love You, Dear!  

WHEN, not if, you do the son-in-law deal, just don't worry about it too much.

20% of the time you might just hit it off immediately and it's another buddy for life, and all is well.

80% of the time there is nothing you can do about it because you are marrying HIS daughter and no one is good enough for her anyway.  It will be cordial but somewhat distant.

As Honest Abe once said, you can't please all the people all the time, or in the immortal words of that sage for the ages, Ricky Nelson, 

"But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself"

The advantage of getting married when you are "mature" is that .....  let's just say there will be fewer in-laws.

And besides if you are in the Celestial Kingdom everybody will like everybody else anyway!

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 

http://exmormonfoundation.com/files/media/2016Conference/05-MaxZimmer.mp3

Unworthy doesn't even come close to how the church leaders made this man feel. I linked the recording of his story, so no temple content. But a story worthy of listening to . Yes the label "unworthy" is blatant. And I'm surprised he survived the mental shame and abuse.  

1.  Don't believe everything you hear, especially from ex Mormons

2. No one can "make you" feel any way except what you LET them "make" you feel.  We make our own happiness and misery, take your pick.  If you let people get to you, you become their puppet with them pulling the strings.  ALWAYS stand up for yourself and do what your "gut" tells you, not what some alleged "leader" tells you.

He is only your "leader" if you follow him.  Nobody controls your feet but you.

[Kenngo1969]

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

... in the immortal words of that sage for the ages, Ricky Nelson, 

"But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself"

The advantage of getting married when you are "mature" is that .....  let's just say there will be fewer in-laws.

And besides if you are in the Celestial Kingdom everybody will like everybody else anyway!

 

Love that song!  And, as always, otherwise, as well, you speak the truth.  Thanks for your encouragement.  It means more to me than I can possibly express.