Contemplative Practice and Mormonism (Or Christianity in General)

[SmileyMcGee]

I have always associated the term “meditation” with “pondering.” Being raised in the LDS Church, I feel I gained a strong appreciation for pondering some principle or idea. I have recently become more acquainted with what would be a more “Eastern” (for lack of a better term) form of meditation and I did a recent search of this board for the term “meditation” and noticed that a number of members of the forum practice meditation or some form of contemplative prayer. I was hoping to resurrect some of the discussion that occurred in the past and hear your experience with meditation, contemplative prayer, or some other related practice. How did you discover it? How long have you been practicing? What role does it play in your overall spiritual development? What resources have you used to develop your practice? Intellectually, how do you place it within the larger framework of Mormonism (or Christianity)?

[RevTestament]

I have great respect for the mental discipline afforded by some eastern religions which practice meditation. I believe the practice was started in Hinduism, but am free to be corrected there. There are many different forms of meditation, and I don't believe in mystic types or types in which the meditator tries to clear their mind. I believe in meditating for a purpose. That entails things like examining your current actions to try to see how others see you; examining where you are stuck/stopped, and what you may do differently; examining what actions you would/should like to take for the day; etc, in addition to pondering scriptures and moral principles. I am only slightly familiar with Buddhist meditation, but the type I experienced at a Nam Myoho renge kyo sect wasn't helpful to me. I disagree with a basic tenet of original Buddhism to escape suffering, so to the extent that meditation is used to escape the world, I don't believe in it. However, I do believe it can be a very useful discipline, even though i don't believe I practice it to the extent I should. I am a very contemplative type of person though so in that sense i am meditating quite frequently. I have definitely practiced a contemplative type of prayer. Sometimes I used to pray until I fell asleep. Now tho I seem to fall asleep in about 5 min....

In the past i believe I used to meditate on scriptural questions I had before I prayed about them. Sometimes it seems I could arrive at an answer before going to God for it. For me this has never involved assuming a "meditation posture" but could involve pondering while sun bathing, lying on my bed, staring out a window, or listening to instrumental or classical music...

[Robert F. Smith]

I have said before on this board that, when LDS presidents and other general authorities recommend meditation and other means to obtain a spiritual state or condition, and when a counselor in a bishopric tells me that he will often read a chapter or two of Scripture in order to get into the “zone” of spirituality, are all of them speaking only of rational, logical, or verbal reflection – merely another form of prayer – or are they speaking sometimes of an ecstatic, ineffable state of spiritual consciousness which is felt but which defies description or analysis?

Just such a transpersonal state of consciousness has often been sought within a variety of faith traditions, the rigorous discipline and methods used being very similar, and not based on any particular theology.  They may include fasting, prayer, reading, esoteric temple rites (such as the LDS endowment), chanting while gazing on a mandala (as in Soka Gakkai), Sufi dancing, or whirling like a dervish.  We even find ecstatic prophets in the Bible.

President David O. McKay said:

Quote

“I think we pay too little attention to the value of meditation, a principle of devotion. … Meditation is the language of the soul. It is defined as ‘a form of private devotion or spiritual exercise, consisting in deep, continued reflection on some religious theme.’ Meditation is a form of prayer. …

“Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord” (Man May Know for Himself, compiler Clare Middlemiss [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1969], pp. 22–23).

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[clarkgoble]

Robert, isn't that a false dichotomy? I'd say it's neither a rational reflection or reasoning nor an ecstatic state. Rather it's a stilling of the mind so one can be open. That's often difficult, especially in our culture. One can reject all the metaphysical and religious trappings of meditation in any of the various traditions (eastern or western) yet still see that ability to quiet oneself and unify oneself as of benefit. As we become still, we can then be more open to hearing what God says. Maybe it's just me, but frequently it's hard to stop my thinking so I can listen for the Holy Ghost.

[boblloyd91]

Haven't done a whole lot of meditation, but in college I was introduced to the labarynth in a social work class. The local Episcopal church in Logan had one, and I did a few walks in it. I'm a therapist so I also teach mindfulness in one of my therapy groups. It's good stuff.

[CV75]

14 hours ago, SmileyMcGee said:

I have always associated the term “meditation” with “pondering.” Being raised in the LDS Church, I feel I gained a strong appreciation for pondering some principle or idea. I have recently become more acquainted with what would be a more “Eastern” (for lack of a better term) form of meditation and I did a recent search of this board for the term “meditation” and noticed that a number of members of the forum practice meditation or some form of contemplative prayer. I was hoping to resurrect some of the discussion that occurred in the past and hear your experience with meditation, contemplative prayer, or some other related practice. How did you discover it? How long have you been practicing? What role does it play in your overall spiritual development? What resources have you used to develop your practice? Intellectually, how do you place it within the larger framework of Mormonism (or Christianity)?

I learned one form of meditation (self-hypnosis) at an employer-sponsored seminar back in 1983 (that covers how I discovered it and the resources). A psychologist taught it and it wasn't TM. I've been using it almost daily (rather, nightly) since then: I can fall asleep in seconds. I have also applied it on occasion to calm nerves, gain insight, etc., but doesn't work for me as well as developing long-term good habits, real intent and prayer. I've seen no significant role in my spiritual development otehr than whatever a good night's sleep might offer, which I understand can be a great deal for some. Within the large framework of Mormonism and Christianity, both will go on without it, and I don't think it is necessary for their success.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

Haven't done a whole lot of meditation, but in college I was introduced to the labarynth in a social work class. The local Episcopal church in Logan had one, and I did a few walks in it. I'm a therapist so I also teach mindfulness in one of my therapy groups. It's good stuff.

The church in Jackson Wyoming has one of these only it's outdoors.  If you're ever in the area, it's a nice activity.  

St. John's Labyrinth

It's not always a great place for mediation though.  It's in downtown Jackson off of a busy side street and there are usually a lot of tourists milling around, walking through the park, etc.

[BlueDreams]

18 hours ago, SmileyMcGee said:

How did you discover it? How long have you been practicing? What role does it play in your overall spiritual development? What resources have you used to develop your practice? Intellectually, how do you place it within the larger framework of Mormonism (or Christianity)?

I think the first time I started doing something that would include some form of meditation was when I was a young teen and dabbling with paganism. I couldn't bring myself to worship pagan gods, but I did try natural healing and meditation sort of things. It was about as serious as any fad that happens when you're 13-14 (ie. not at all). 

After that I got into yoga later (starting late teens). Currently I enjoy vanyasas and ashtanga yoga as a form of moving meditation. My body stores my stress and emotions as somatic problems a lot of the time. So I'll get more migraines when I'm stressed, feel more tension in my shoulders, and feel my chest muscles grow tight and inward. Bad moments can include a loss of appetite and stomach cramps when I try to eat. Yoga helps me release it and reduce the symptomology. I'll find myself doing a heart opening exercise and suddenly feel sadness or anger burst out. After, I may have my appetite back and can eat again more normally. etc. I don't know if I consider it apart of my spiritual development, but it does help me a ton emotionally....not to mention physically with my back discomfort at times. Likewise I'll sometimes to yoga nidra when I'm wound up or worn out, but know I can't take a nap. Or when I'm trying to go to sleep but can't get my body to relax.

More contemplative practices are less sitting meditations, unless I'm in the mountains. In which case I find a quiet place in the middle of the woods, sit myself down, read my PB or pertinent scriptures from my phone. I may pray, and then think about what I've experienced. This has definitely been helpful to clear my mind and my focus in where I'm going in life. Nature in general calms and soothes me. So even gardening can have a similar effect as I end up connecting it to scriptural parallels.

In the framework in mormonism, I think it ties into the idea of finding good in other places as well and incorporating it. I think it ties into principles such as "be still and know that I am God" or learning balance by not moving faster than one has strength. It can also help calm us down enough to hear the "still, small voice." Honestly I could do with more of it. But it tends to come more when I have something big in my mind or heart as opposed to a daily practice. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited April 27, 2017 by BlueDreams

[clarkgoble]

22 hours ago, SmileyMcGee said:

I have always associated the term “meditation” with “pondering.” Being raised in the LDS Church, I feel I gained a strong appreciation for pondering some principle or idea. I have recently become more acquainted with what would be a more “Eastern” (for lack of a better term) form of meditation and I did a recent search of this board for the term “meditation” and noticed that a number of members of the forum practice meditation or some form of contemplative prayer. 

The eastern and western forms aren't that different. So platonic inspired Christian mystics and meditators are typically doing things pretty similar to what you find in Buddhism. Ditto Kabbalism. I don't know as much about Islam but I assume it's the same. The pagan platonists of late antiquity before Christianity took over also are doing the same thing. Indeed a lot of the roots of western mysticism almost certainly comes out of India and trade with the near east. The metaphysics and view of the ecstatic state, if one is seeking for that, are different of course. 

I'd also repeat that one can distinguish between quietism and those seeking to ecstatic states in various ways. In both traditions there are those who are very distrustful of ecstatic states. A well known Zen koan I like to quote is that before seeking enlightenment mountains are just mountains and waters are just waters. After seeking enlightenment mountains are no longer mountains and waters no longer waters. After enlightenment mountains are once again mountains and waters are once again waters. 

So there are very different traditions as to what the ultimate aim is and how much to trust such things. In hekhalot mysticism in the Jewish tradition there's a saying that as one is taking the heavenly ascent (called a descent for various reasons) and one sees the waters during the ascent you can't say you see it.  "R. Aqiva said to them: when you arrive at the stones of pure marble, do not say "water, water," for it is said: No one who utters lies shall be established before my eyes." (b Hagigah 14b) This is in reference to seeing waters and asking for the interpretation. (Think Nephi's vision of the waters of the tree of life in paradise) But different traditions have different approaches and interpretations.

While I'm pretty skeptical of mysticism in all this - I think it's typically a counterfeit of real revelation - the quietism style that you find in Zen is something I agree with a great deal. I'll confess I've not done Zen meditation since having kids. But I used to do it and Aikido (which in practice is very related) fairly regularly.

[pogi]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 4:55 PM, SmileyMcGee said:

How did you discover it? How long have you been practicing? What role does it play in your overall spiritual development? What resources have you used to develop your practice? Intellectually, how do you place it within the larger framework of Mormonism (or Christianity)?

Thanks for starting this thread. This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I started meditation rather unintentionally and in a very natural and organic way.  It has probably been about 10 or so years ago that I was in a very dark place. My marriage was on the rocks, my spirituality was shot, my testimony was dangling by a thread, and I had lost about all hope of recovering from any of it, including my addiction that I had battled with for years with no lasting success.

I was ready to give up on it all.  As a last ditch effort, I decided to give God one last shot.  I made a commitment to pray for a minimum of 15 minutes every morning for one month, pleading for something...anything, to help me through!  If nothing happened, my life might have taken a different direction. I would have likely been singing a different song today.　

I started praying every morning as I knew how. My understanding of prayer at the time was that you talk to God and then say amen. I talked and talked and talked...after about 5 minutes of that, I ran out of things to say!  I became frustrated and didn't quite know how to continue, but I had made a commitment and I was going to honor it. Gradually all of my talking turned into day dreaming. I began to notice my distracted mind as I tried to focus on the spirit of prayer or on thoughts of God and recovery. I had a very specific purpose to my prayer, but I found it very difficult to "say" prayers every day. It didn't take long before all of my practice turned into simply listening. What started out as a dreadful 15 minutes of forced words eventually turned into a "sweet hour of prayer".  I now practice for 20 minutes twice daily.

Gradually, over time, line upon line, thoughts, feelings and impressions started stirring within and profoundly impacted me.  Something was happening inside of me that I had never experienced before.  I started writing all of this down in what I call The Book of Ryan(Pogi). I now have several volumes of prayer jounrals filled with personal scripture for me. They are more sacred to me than any book of scripture. I soon made the connection that my practice was really a form of meditation. I started learning about Buddhist practices and mindfulness meditation. I studied some on Hindu practices. I absorbed all of the truth I could find in it. I researched Christian meditation and learned about contemplative prayer from an incredibly inspirational Bennedictine monk by the name of Laurence Freeman. This led me deeper into the mystic traditions taught by Saint Teresa of Avila and others. I also researched meditation within Mormonsism and found President McKay to be a source of great inspiration, as Robert has already pointed out. One Mormon article I really liked on the subjects of prayer and meditation is in a 1975 Ensign article by Chauncey C. Riddle, entitled Prayer.

My practice has evolved over time as I learn new principles and try to apply them. I would say that my practice is a unique and fairly eclectic blend of all of these sources, as I have applied the principles that I feel harmonize well with Mormonism and edify me and my practice.  I am fully taking advantage of the charge to go out and find truth wherever it may be.

Meditative prayer has profoundly influenced my life.  I credit the practice for a happy successful marriage today.  It vanquished the clouds of darkness, toxic shame, doubt, and fear, and has been the catalyst to profound spirituality that I never knew possible.  I found recovery through prayer.  I have discovered myself, and I have discovered my God through it.  I have discovered spiritual and emotional intimacy.  I can testify along with David O. McKay that meditation "is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord."

I have a lot more to say on the subject, but that will have to suffice for now.

[pogi]

On 4/27/2017 at 0:08 AM, clarkgoble said:

Robert, isn't that a false dichotomy? I'd say it's neither a rational reflection or reasoning nor an ecstatic state. Rather it's a stilling of the mind so one can be open. That's often difficult, especially in our culture. One can reject all the metaphysical and religious trappings of meditation in any of the various traditions (eastern or western) yet still see that ability to quiet oneself and unify oneself as of benefit. As we become still, we can then be more open to hearing what God says. Maybe it's just me, but frequently it's hard to stop my thinking so I can listen for the Holy Ghost.

All good points.  All meditation techniques can basically be divided into two main groups, consentrative meditation and nondirective meditation.  What you are describing is a consentrative form meditation, where focus is placed on the breath or a mantra etc. in effort to quiet the mind of distracted thoughts.  There is a lot of good things to be said about that form of meditation.  Nondirective meditation, on the other hand, uses more of an effortless focus on the breath etc. but allows the mind to wander as it pleases.  So, people who really struggle with trying to "quiet the mind" might prefer this method of meditation.  

There is some evidence from fMRI studies that nondirective types of meditation may be superior in activating the resting network areas of the brain which are involved in memory and emotion processing.  "This area of the brain has its highest activity when we rest. It represents a kind of basic operating system, a resting network that takes over when external tasks do not require our attention. It is remarkable that a mental task like nondirective meditation results in even higher activity in this network than regular rest," according to Dr. Davanger.  Consentrative meditation showed brain activity similar to states of rest.   Here is an article on one small study, but there are several others as well:

 http://www.science20.com/news_articles/concentrative_or_nondirective_meditation_which_does_science_say_works_better-136401

I practice a hybrid of the two.  I view the first 5 minutes of my meditation as a sort of preparation for meditative prayer.  It is a time to cleanse, quite, and prepare myself to enter the holy of holies of my body temple, which is centered in the scriptural heart, to commune with God away from the distractions of the world.  This first 5 minutes is a form of consentrative meditation.  I sometimes use a mantra, I sometimes use a breath, or I sometimes use a feeling to focus all of my attention on, other times I use a visualization process of breathing in white light into each section of my body and breathing out black clouds of stress, tension, anxiety, doubt, fear, or whatever might prevent a clean connection with the spirit.  It allows me to quite the mind and center myself emotionally.  After about 5 minutes, or as long as it takes to feel centered, I then begin my prayer by addressing the father and asking for the spirit to direct my prayer.  At this point I transition to a more nondirective form of meditation with a soft attention to the breath or mantra etc. while allowing my mind to follow impressions, thoughts, feelings, or visions as I feel are directed by the Holy Spirit.  

I feel like this form of meditative prayer is much more conducive to personal revelation as taught in Mormonism, because consentrative meditation requires one to suppress any inspired thoughts etc. that might come through the Holy Spirit by placing all attention on the breath or mantra. So, I like to use it in preperation for prayer, but I feel like I need to allow my mind to wander beyond the breath in order to listen to the voice of the Lord.

St. John Cassian probably best describes how I experience prayer and meditation when he said, “The unceasing recitation of the Holy Words [mantra] should bring the soul into a climate, into a disposition, from which its own prayer can arise spontaneously.”  As Mormonism often teaches, the most effective prayer is not when we pray, but when the spirit prays through us.  

I am always careful to record my experience.  This shows respect and value for what I have received, that it I treasure it enough to write it down and remember.  Often times, I find that through writing, I often receive further inspiration and clarification of my experience in prayer that I would have not received had I not attempted to write about my experience. 

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by pogi

[clarkgoble]

55 minutes ago, pogi said:

All meditation techniques can basically be divided into two main groups, consentrative meditation and nondirective meditation.  What you are describing is a consentrative form meditation, where focus is placed on the breath or a mantra etc. in effort to quiet the mind of distracted thoughts.

You described it far better than me. And I definitely don't want to dismiss the other type, which I've done a bit as well. I personally don't like it as much. But then I'd also be very skeptical of what thoughts come to mind in such a state too. It's that fine line between creativity and enlightenment. The mystics I've talked with who focus most on the nondirective styles sometimes saw it just as a kind of drive for creativity. (This was especially the case with those who focused on the hermetic trappings of the renaissance with things like tarot cards and the like) That is they didn't see what came to mind as anything but creativity of the sort on gets when writing fiction. Others obviously think there's more weight to these things.

As I said my own focus was primarily in focusing in on a kind of no-mind experience and becoming centered. My comments were primarily just to note that this type of meditation shouldn't be overlooked.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

But then I'd also be very skeptical of what thoughts come to mind in such a state too. It's that fine line between creativity and enlightenment. 

I have frequently heard this skepticism from people.  Some have been skeptical of my practice and are worried that I might be deceiving myself (and I don't think that you are claiming that).  Its funny because I am much more skeptical of being able to discern the spirit without giving time to listen.  Living a distracted life, as most Americans do, while not giving time for centered, quiet, heartfelt introspection, listening to the spirit of the Lord in communion with God, certainly this cannot be a better way to hear the still small voice.   The more we give time, space, and attention (most critically) to listening to the spirit, the better we will learn to hear and discern it.  

Most of us talk to God in our prayers and give no space for listening.  I reverse that practice in meditative prayer.  I still say prayers, but when I practice meditative prayer, it is a time set apart for listening only.  As President McKay said about meditation, it is a time to "let your spirit be taught by the spirit."  It is difficult to be taught when we are not listening.  Consentrative meditation doesn't allow me the opportunity to listen, but it obviously has its benefits as well.  President McKay told the 12 in council meeting one morning, "If we so live that our minds are free from worry and our conscience clear and our feelings are right toward one another, the operation of the spirit of the Lord upon our spirit is as real as when we pick up the telephone; but when they come, note this, we must be brave enough to take the suggested action. …

Don’t get so busy that you don’t have time to meditate. Take the time. The most important testimony does not come by sight, but by the inner witness. Christ may be nearer than we have knowledge. “I am in your midst, but you do not see me. The Holy Ghost bears the sure witness. Mine eyes are upon you. The day cometh when ye shall know that I am.” [See D&C 38:7–8.]10 

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-19?lang=eng

That has been my experience with the practice.  Spiritual discernment seems to be so much more clear and obvious for me in meditative prayer.  It can be as PResident McKay described, it is "as real as when we pick up the telephone."

The most effective way to hear the Lord is to be living in, and in-tune with, the present moment experience, emotionally and spiritually, because that is where the Lord is.  Christ said, "I am in our midst", that is here in the present moment, but most of us don't stick around long enough to notice Him, as is noted when He said "but you do not see me."  That is where principles of mindfulness come in handy.  The idea that Christ frequently taught is that to be spiritually discerning, we have to "let" ourselves hear.  He often said, "he who has ears to hear, let him hear."  How many actually take time to actually "let" ourselves hear?

Perhaps that is the difference between my practice and other nondirective meditation.  I am not sure if my practice is aptly called "nondirective" because my attention and heart is always centered on the Lord with open ears and heart.  My attention is directed to the Lord.  That really is the key to my practice..."attention". If we give time daily to pay attention to the Lord, we will find him.  So, I wouldn't be too skeptical.  The fruits, for me, have been obvious and abundant. 

I am not bashing consentrative forms of meditation by any means, they have their place, but if one is seeking to "hear" the Lord, I don't see how that could be accomplished in consentrative meditation where one is taught to push out any thoughts, feelings, and inspiration, and not dwell on them.  

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by pogi

[clarkgoble]

51 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have frequently heard this skepticism from people.  Some have been skeptical of my practice and are worried that I might be deceiving myself.  Its funny because I am much more skeptical of being able to discern the spirit without giving time to listen.

Well that's where I find the utility of meditation. I used to have a hard time turning off my thinking. I'd be praying and just wander off to thinking about tangents. It was both very helpful to train my brain not to do that but also to help me be more open to listening.

My point is more that I don't think the meditation itself grounds the experience. That is I think we need something else to determine what is or isn't a revelation and what characterizes a revelation. It's not that such things couldn't happen during meditation. Of course they could. They might happen in very odd ways if the NT's account of drawing lots to pick the replacement for Judas is right. It's just that to my eyes something else is needed to ground these practices. 

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Well that's where I find the utility of meditation. I used to have a hard time turning off my thinking. I'd be praying and just wander off to thinking about tangents. It was both very helpful to train my brain not to do that but also to help me be more open to listening.

Yes, that certainly is one of the utilities of consentrative meditations.  I too struggled with a distracted mind for a very long time.  The discipline of consentrative meditations such as mindfulness meditation or contemplative prayer (a form of mantra meditation) are certainly powerful tools that I have used (and still use) to quiet the mind.  I just don't want to quiet it so much that I shush out the spirit...

I am happy to hear that it works so well for you.  I certainly don't want to give the impression that my way is the only/best way to commune with God.  I think it is a very individual thing. 

18 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

My point is more that I don't think the meditation itself grounds the experience. That is I think we need something else to determine what is or isn't a revelation and what characterizes a revelation. It's not that such things couldn't happen during meditation. Of course they could. They might happen in very odd ways if the NT's account of drawing lots to pick the replacement for Judas is right. It's just that to my eyes something else is needed to ground these practices. 

For me, meditation is a form of prayer (as President McKay states).  Prayer is the most effective means for receiving revelation known to man.  I think if Mormons could learn to talk less and listen more in their personal practice, they will find enhanced two-way communion with the Lord and they will notice personal revelation more in their lives.   Prayer is one of the central teachings of Mormonism and the reason for the revelations of the restoration.  I think the "something else" you are referring to is the Spirit.  

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I think the "something else" you are referring to is the Spirit.  

This gets at the discussion I'm having over in the hallucination thread. The question is how we know it's the spirit versus a counterfeit.

[pogi]

On 4/28/2017 at 8:36 PM, clarkgoble said:

This gets at the discussion I'm having over in the hallucination thread. The question is how we know it's the spirit versus a counterfeit.

We know by planting the seed.  The fruits, for me, are undeniable.

[Storm Rider]

I mentioned this in another thread, but recently have been reading about Thomas Keating and his teaching on Centered prayer, a form of contemplative prayer process that is focused on opening oneself to God, his guidance and direction.  He approaches the topic from a very broad scope and progressively narrows it down.  I am impressed with what he says and feel comfortable recommending him to others that have an interest.  He is a Trappist Monk and priest.  He is eruite and wonderful in how he teaches about God and revelation.  

[mfbukowski]

I am coming rather late to this thread but wanted to get into it.  I have been meditating for years in kid of a modified mindfulness technique 

 I was involved for a while with Zen but found that too metaphysical and quasi-religious which was ok but I wanted something more western.  

I see this as not "prayer" but as a mental exercise which teaches you to see "reality" in a new way, and actually opens the door I think to being sensitive enough to feel religious experiences when they happen.  One gets very good at monitoring one's internal states and noticing variations and that allows you to find the causes - your "hot buttons" and ways in which some experiences cause you to react in ways you find unacceptable- a person who makes you tense, how specific words cause you react certain ways etc.  It lets you see clearly how your experience and language have programmed your hot spots and you can become free of them.

I believe that wordless experience is actually way experience "things as they are" and I think meditation is one tool which enables us to understand wordless experience.

 Meditation I think  is actually the practice of being able to SEE your linguistic programming and see it wordlessly and dispassionately.

Meditation is definitely part of pragmatism as I see it- Pragmatism is about distrusting language and the "wisdom" of language over direct experience of what works in your life- or what works in science, for example.  

[RevTestament]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am coming rather late to this thread but wanted to get into it.  I have been meditating for years in kid of a modified mindfulness technique 

 I was involved for a while with Zen but found that too metaphysical and quasi-religious which was ok but I wanted something more western.  

I see this as not "prayer" but as a mental exercise which teaches you to see "reality" in a new way, and actually opens the door I think to being sensitive enough to feel religious experiences when they happen.  One gets very good at monitoring one's internal states and noticing variations and that allows you to find the causes - your "hot buttons" and ways in which some experiences cause you to react in ways you find unacceptable- a person who makes you tense, how specific words cause you react certain ways etc.  It lets you see clearly how your experience and language have programmed your hot spots and you can become free of them.

I believe that wordless experience is actually way experience "things as they are" and I think meditation is one tool which enables us to understand wordless experience.

 Meditation I think  is actually the practice of being able to SEE your linguistic programming and see it wordlessly and dispassionately.

Meditation is definitely part of pragmatism as I see it- Pragmatism is about distrusting language and the "wisdom" of language over direct experience of what works in your life- or what works in science, for example.  

I wonder if it would be worth it for the Church or for a Church group to have meditation classes to teach and discuss meditation methods. Maybe even a facebook or yahoo group would work, but for this I think the personal method would work better. I think I would be willing or would like to attend such a class.

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I wonder if it would be worth it for the Church or for a Church group to have meditation classes to teach and discuss meditation methods. Maybe even a facebook or yahoo group would work, but for this I think the personal method would work better. I think I would be willing or would like to attend such a class.

That's an interesting idea- if any are interested maybe some of us here could do that, I don't know- if we could agree on a technique

I would just start with pure mindfulness as an exercise- forget any doctrine or any quasi-religious stuff you hear from them but usually they are pretty good at dropping that.

This is an exercise like lifting weights or yoga- it is not religious.

We can MAKE it religious by adding our own interpretation but the exercise itself is religiously neutral.   This is a good starting point:  https://www.mindful.org/meditation/mindfulness-getting-started/

Forget the video that wants to take away the self out of it- that is ridiculous.  If there is no self, who is meditating?  LDS people must have a sense of self to have agency otherwise you are a robot.  Conference calls could work also and skype type thingys.   Not a bad idea.

Edited April 30, 2017 by mfbukowski

[clarkgoble]

19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I wonder if it would be worth it for the Church or for a Church group to have meditation classes to teach and discuss meditation methods. Maybe even a facebook or yahoo group would work, but for this I think the personal method would work better. I think I would be willing or would like to attend such a class.

Lots of stakes do it. Mine does apparently (I've never been). I suspect the Church wants to be careful about not corrupting doctrine since most meditation practices come with a lot of doctrine about what's going on - sometimes ideas at odds with church teaching. So it seems the sort of thing that can get out of hand easily.

[mfbukowski]

On 4/28/2017 at 3:45 PM, clarkgoble said:

Well that's where I find the utility of meditation. I used to have a hard time turning off my thinking. I'd be praying and just wander off to thinking about tangents. It was both very helpful to train my brain not to do that but also to help me be more open to listening.

My point is more that I don't think the meditation itself grounds the experience. That is I think we need something else to determine what is or isn't a revelation and what characterizes a revelation. It's not that such things couldn't happen during meditation. Of course they could. They might happen in very odd ways if the NT's account of drawing lots to pick the replacement for Judas is right. It's just that to my eyes something else is needed to ground these practices. 

I suppose I should quit bugging you about this- but there IS nothing but other experiences to "ground" these practices, and that is our big point of disagreement.  It's all the same discussion we have been having.

It's like asking for a "ground" for your testimony- it is self-grounding.  It is evidence to you but might not be evidence to anyone else.  THAT is the central problem here in grounding spiritual experience.  It either works for you or it doesn't- there is no help out there to help one decide between spiritual paths but oneself.

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Lots of stakes do it. Mine does apparently (I've never been). I suspect the Church wants to be careful about not corrupting doctrine since most meditation practices come with a lot of doctrine about what's going on - sometimes ideas at odds with church teaching. So it seems the sort of thing that can get out of hand easily.

Wow cool to know- I have never heard of this!

[pogi]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I wonder if it would be worth it for the Church or for a Church group to have meditation classes to teach and discuss meditation methods. Maybe even a facebook or yahoo group would work, but for this I think the personal method would work better. I think I would be willing or would like to attend such a class.

This is where I get a little Catholic envy.  MiserereNobis recently had a thread on Catholic vocations.  He talked about being able to go to a meditative retreat at a Catholic monastery.  I wish the LDS Church had something like that! 

Anyone interested in meditation might find these resources helpful from a Mormon perspective:

The mormon channel had an episode on Christ-Centered meditation in 2015 taught by Pam Blackwell.  It is a basic introduction and guided meditation: 

https://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/mormon-channel-daily-audio/christ-centered-meditation-february-25-2015

https://www.mormonchannel.org/blog/post/faithful-meditation

Phil McLemore also teaches Mormon meditation techniques.  He has a good article in Sunstone Magazine about meditation here:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/141-20-31.pdf

He has a youtube video, website and Facebook page you can check out as well:

http://mormonmeditations.org/lds-meditation-training-phil-mclemore

https://www.facebook.com/MormonMeditations/

Here is a good article on ldsliving.com about meditation as well:

http://www.ldsliving.com/Be-Still-Finding-Inner-Peace-Through-Meditation/s/75731

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by pogi