Should there be a new calling to focus on the "Poor and Needy"?

[Gray]

24 minutes ago, rongo said:

No, but the Church in Acts and beyond was (that's where you get teachings like the idle shall not eat the bread of the laborer, etc.). Jesus' ministry and how he/they lived was a special and unique thing, in many ways not seen before or since, and not something we can or should emulate on a one-to-one basis. He even taught things like "count the cost," etc.

Surely you're not arguing that we shouldn't be "self-reliant at all for our material things" because of Jesus' three-year ministry?

I don't think I'd argue that, but I think Jesus might. 

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't think this is fair.  They are in the process of implementing two major programs and growing a third (the Pathways).  The other goals have been in place for ages.

 The Church is not the only one involved in setting this stuff up since they are wisely reserving resources by teaming up with locals.  It takes a huge amount of time for these organizations (especially if volunteer) to decide how they will plan on using new volunteers the best, start new programs, work out any legal issues, etc. and that takes a lot of back and forth.  Then it also takes time to train volunteers for the Church only self reliant program. They have seen how too much too soon too fast decreases participation, so they are wisely taking it slow, establishing a good foundation so it works smoothly once it gets going.

 Once the programs are fully in place, then one will be more able to fairly judge investment in the programs.

I optimistically look forward to see what this looks like once implemented. 

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

I don't think I'd argue that, but I think Jesus might. 

Well, if you believe that Jesus spoke to us through Restoration scriptures, we have our answer. In spades if you believe that Jesus still speaks to us through prophets.

But that might not be a given with you, right?  

[Gray]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Well, if you believe that Jesus spoke to us through Restoration scriptures, we have our answer. In spades if you believe that Jesus still speaks to us through prophets.

But that might not be a given with you, right?  

Correct!

Or maybe to speak even more clearly, there is the Jesus of history, and the Jesus of theology. I don't think they're the same thing, and the Jesus of theology seems to have swallowed up the Jesus of history. Which is a shame because the Jesus of history seems to be a fascinating man. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Gray

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I suppose that anyone here who is taking in homeless people can start throwing stones at the people in Draper. 

I'm at the north end of Sandy so that'd be quite a toss...even for me.

[rongo]

23 hours ago, cinepro said:

The recent fiasco in Draper

Thanks for the KSL story. I hadn't heard about this.

For what it's worth, I would be very much in favor of a homeless shelter in my town. We're a town of 45,000 on a state highway between Phoenix and Tucson (but not directly on !-10), so we do get a lot of people passing through (we're on the way to and from San Diego for many in our region). We've had need of such a place --- and not only for people who are actually homeless. We do have a battered women's shelter, and it has helped people in my ward out on two occasions, even though they were not in a situation of physical abuse or danger. Once, my RS president and I were out until 2 AM getting a 19 year-old woman admitted (we couldn't go in with her --- strict security --- but we brought her there. We had to wait outside the gates). 

I have fond memories of serving at a homeless shelter in Joliet, IL after my mission. My ward had been serving there, and it was very rewarding and a lot of fun. They were always really glad it was "Mormon server" night, because we provided a lot of meat (don't ask me how this was allowed, in this age of liability, food handler's permits, etc., but we supplied and helped cook the food). We served and then talked with them. Some of them asked us, furtively, if we would put food in a thermos for them to take (everyone had to leave for a 24 hour period before they could return, to discourage squatting). It could be bitter cold during the winter.

I wish my kids and the ward's kids could experience something like that.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Thanks for the KSL story. I hadn't heard about this.

For what it's worth, I would be very much in favor of a homeless shelter in my town. We're a town of 45,000 on a state highway between Phoenix and Tucson (but not directly on !-10), so we do get a lot of people passing through (we're on the way to and from San Diego for many in our region). We've had need of such a place --- and not only for people who are actually homeless. We do have a battered women's shelter, and it has helped people in my ward out on two occasions, even though they were not in a situation of physical abuse or danger. Once, my RS president and I were out until 2 AM getting a 19 year-old woman admitted (we couldn't go in with her --- strict security --- but we brought her there. We had to wait outside the gates). 

I have fond memories of serving at a homeless shelter in Joliet, IL after my mission. My ward had been serving there, and it was very rewarding and a lot of fun. They were always really glad it was "Mormon server" night, because we provided a lot of meat (don't ask me how this was allowed, in this age of liability, food handler's permits, etc., but we supplied and helped cook the food). We served and then talked with them. Some of them asked us, furtively, if we would put food in a thermos for them to take (everyone had to leave for a 24 hour period before they could return, to discourage squatting). It could be bitter cold during the winter.

I wish my kids and the ward's kids could experience something like that.

I think it'd be great to have a shelter in each town. Why put it on the shoulders of one or two towns? My sister-in-law is on the Draper City Council, and she received a lot of flack for the offering by Draper City to have a shelter there. I was very impressed that Draper City tried to reach out and help. 

My daughter lives near where they are building the new shelter. She's happy about it. She has homeless that live in a field right behind her and they apparently started a fire, I'm thinking from a campfire, and luckily she saw it in time and called the fire dept. Now maybe the homeless will have some shelter. 

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

Thanks for the KSL story. I hadn't heard about this.

For what it's worth, I would be very much in favor of a homeless shelter in my town. We're a town of 45,000 on a state highway between Phoenix and Tucson (but not directly on !-10), so we do get a lot of people passing through (we're on the way to and from San Diego for many in our region). We've had need of such a place --- and not only for people who are actually homeless. We do have a battered women's shelter, and it has helped people in my ward out on two occasions, even though they were not in a situation of physical abuse or danger. Once, my RS president and I were out until 2 AM getting a 19 year-old woman admitted (we couldn't go in with her --- strict security --- but we brought her there. We had to wait outside the gates). 

I have fond memories of serving at a homeless shelter in Joliet, IL after my mission. My ward had been serving there, and it was very rewarding and a lot of fun. They were always really glad it was "Mormon server" night, because we provided a lot of meat (don't ask me how this was allowed, in this age of liability, food handler's permits, etc., but we supplied and helped cook the food). We served and then talked with them. Some of them asked us, furtively, if we would put food in a thermos for them to take (everyone had to leave for a 24 hour period before they could return, to discourage squatting). It could be bitter cold during the winter.

I wish my kids and the ward's kids could experience something like that.

Two of the new Salt Lake City homeless shelters will be in my stake.  I'm friends with the bishop in one of those wards.  They are already stretched pretty thin seeing to the welfare needs that they have. 

[rongo]

34 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Two of the new Salt Lake City homeless shelters will be in my stake.  I'm friends with the bishop in one of those wards.  They are already stretched pretty thin seeing to the welfare needs that they have. 

I think you had said that you live in Midvale, and that your ward is where bishops like me send people.  

I actually did send a man to Midvale, and his bishop wasn't happy about it. During the crash of 2006, we had a lot of out of work engineers and other skilled positions. We had a brother who was a surveyor, but the construction (and especially road construction) economy in Arizona was terrible. He and his wife had a son. He called me and said that he had been offered a good job on the $1 billion I-15 project between Point of the Mountain and Nephi. Should he take it? I told him YES! They were destitute at that time, so I payed for a moving truck, first month's rent in a storage facility, and a month at an extended stay hotel. This would take care of their basic needs until his pay began coming in. When I called his bishop to tell him the situation (including that they will probably need a food order) and that I was sending their records, he wasn't happy. He acted like I was just kicking the can to him. But I put him in a position to be self-reliant, and that is the best possible use of fast offering funds. 

The extended-stay motel was in Midvale, right off of the 15, and close to where he would work.

I have found extended stay motels to be a cheap and good short-term solution to sudden loss of housing. Keeps people sheltered, and you don't need a deposit or background check. 

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think you had said that you live in Midvale, and that your ward is where bishops like me send people.  

I actually did send a man to Midvale, and his bishop wasn't happy about it. During the crash of 2006, we had a lot of out of work engineers and other skilled positions. We had a brother who was a surveyor, but the construction (and especially road construction) economy in Arizona was terrible. He and his wife had a son. He called me and said that he had been offered a good job on the $1 billion I-15 project between Point of the Mountain and Nephi. Should he take it? I told him YES! They were destitute at that time, so I payed for a moving truck, first month's rent in a storage facility, and a month at an extended stay hotel. This would take care of their basic needs until his pay began coming in. When I called his bishop to tell him the situation (including that they will probably need a food order) and that I was sending their records, he wasn't happy. He acted like I was just kicking the can to him. But I put him in a position to be self-reliant, and that is the best possible use of fast offering funds. 

The extended-stay motel was in Midvale, right off of the 15, and close to where he would work.

I have found extended stay motels to be a cheap and good short-term solution to sudden loss of housing. Keeps people sheltered, and you don't need a deposit or background check. 

Nope, not Midvale. 

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

I have found extended stay motels to be a cheap and good short-term solution to sudden loss of housing. Keeps people sheltered, and you don't need a deposit or background check. 

I believe that the transient bishop in Salt Lake will no longer provide temporary housing to people in motels.  My understanding was that the church was sending tens of thousands of dollars a year to many of these types of places. 

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I believe that the transient bishop in Salt Lake will no longer provide temporary housing to people in motels.  My understanding was that the church was sending tens of thousands of dollars a year to many of these types of places. 

I can imagine, if I were a transient bishop in a metropolitan area, not being able to do that. For me, it's once in a while, as needs arise. 

If we were suddenly homeless and needed shelter, it's what I would do. 

The other issue is liability for damage. I put up a man in a hotel for a night once (paying for it myself), and the hotel manager complained that he had smoked up a storm in the room. Normally, he would charge me for that, but he knew that I was trying to help someone out and let it go. That worried me, with the room being on my debit card. The man had been in our ward, had gone to prison for armed robbery, had been released (his entire extended family had disowned him), and ended up in a nearby stake asking for me. A brother in our ward found him and called for instructions. I told him to take him to IHOP, and I would meet them there. We fed him, I put him up for the night, and I contacted that stake's transient bishop, who I think got him into a shelter in Phoenix. He also shook a lot from Parkinson's as we ate with him. Memories! That was late Easter Sunday night about six or seven years ago.

When the new stake presidency asked about bishop assignments this year (several new bishops), I was quick to tell them that I was agent bishop of our building. I didn't want to be the transient bishop for our stake . . .  

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

I can imagine, if I were a transient bishop in a metropolitan area, not being able to do that. For me, it's once in a while, as needs arise. 

If we were suddenly homeless and needed shelter, it's what I would do. 

The other issue is liability for damage. I put up a man in a hotel for a night once (paying for it myself), and the hotel manager complained that he had smoked up a storm in the room. Normally, he would charge me for that, but he knew that I was trying to help someone out and let it go. That worried me, with the room being on my debit card. The man had been in our ward, had gone to prison for armed robbery, had been released (his entire extended family had disowned him), and ended up in a nearby stake asking for me. A brother in our ward found him and called for instructions. I told him to take him to IHOP, and I would meet them there. We fed him, I put him up for the night, and I contacted that stake's transient bishop, who I think got him into a shelter in Phoenix. He also shook a lot from Parkinson's as we ate with him. Memories! That was late Easter Sunday night about six or seven years ago.

When the new stake presidency asked about bishop assignments this year (several new bishops), I was quick to tell them that I was agent bishop of our building. I didn't want to be the transient bishop for our stake . . .  

Wow! I don't know if I could do all of that, too worried about I and my family's safety, especially after what the Smart family went through after allowing the homeless to work at their home. Of course I know you didn't let him come to your home but you met up with someone who was involved in armed robbery.

I had no idea what bishop's go through. But more power to you!! I've only lived in the suburbs that don't have homeless/transients in it. 

[juliann]

Rockpond posted this, about the RS President's address to the UN. It is a good addition to Rain's information.  http://www.sltrib.com/home/5174836-155/new-mormon-womens-leader-preaches-the

Quote

 

"While our beliefs and convictions may vary," she said, "we are united with other faiths in our commitment to a higher cause that transcends our personal interests and motivates us to give of our substance, our time and our energies on behalf of our fellow men and women."

Bingham noted that the Relief Society, which represents Mormonism's 7.1 million women, has a rich, 175-year history of assisting in charitable work. Through its LDS Charities organization, the Utah-based faith has helped millions in disaster-stricken regions, as well as refugees from the world's war-torn areas, with food, medicine and other assistance.

"Having said this," Bingham added, "I must emphasize that were LDS Charities left to do this work on our own, our impact would be limited."

 

Quote

"And indeed, when you can mobilize 7 million women, each doing what they can according to their own time and resources, there is no limit to what they can achieve," Bingham said. " ... Every faith-based organization echoes that same sentiment. We all desire to 'accomplish something extraordinary' — and, working together, we will."

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Wow! I don't know if I could do all of that, too worried about I and my family's safety, especially after what the Smart family went through after allowing the homeless to work at their home. Of course I know you didn't let him come to your home but you met up with someone who was involved in armed robbery.

I had no idea what bishop's go through. But more power to you!! I've only lived in the suburbs that don't have homeless/transients in it. 

You probably meet lots of people with felonies and never know it.  One of my past boyfriends committed armed robbery after we were no longer together.  I doubt many people would think he had done something like that now from what I have seen of him online.  Lots of people are stupid about doing crimes, while not being someone to be afraid of at every moment. There's a good chance that both of our brothers have done things that may make us afraid if we knew about them. ETA  So it's ok to be kind etc. Just be careful - with anyone.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Rain

[Tacenda]

Just now, Rain said:

You probably meet lots of people with felonies and never know it.  One of my past boyfriends committed armed robbery after we were no longer together.  I doubt many people would think he had done something like that now from what I have seen of him online.  Lots of people are stupid about doing crimes, while not being someone to be afraid of at every moment. There's a good chance that both of our brothers have done things that may make us afraid if we knew about them.  

You know you're right Rain! My brother is in that camp, he has done things that are illegal. Sometimes I'm really quite naive! I guess the "armed robbery" portion, just gave me a start.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wow! I don't know if I could do all of that, too worried about I and my family's safety, especially after what the Smart family went through after allowing the homeless to work at their home. Of course I know you didn't let him come to your home but you met up with someone who was involved in armed robbery.

I had no idea what bishop's go through. But more power to you!! I've only lived in the suburbs that don't have homeless/transients in it. 

Transients will sometime just show up at chapels asking for help even in the suburbs from what I have heard, though most follow bus routes and major highways in my experience.  Generally bishops will know what other bishops to call if there is a probability someone is a scammer because they are two wards away (they skip one building thinking they are being clever) if relatively close together on the pathway usually traveled.   My bishop used to chuckle about it, he was always the first or the last so very popular and a very nice, but also wise and practical man so he and the bishop chain did right by those who needed them, even if need included some gentle instruction about not gaming the system if they wanted continuing assistance.

Our ward up in Canada sat on an intersection of two main roads and there were a couple of hospitals close by.  My husband would park there for work as it bordered the university.  He came across a number of people living in their car waiting for a bishop to show up sometime.  We ended up doing babysitting a few times when it was the whole family and one parent was in hospital, I think we did dogs a couple of times.  Most of the time he just called the bishop though.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, Calm said:

Transients will sometime just show up at chapels asking for help even in the suburbs from what I have heard, though most follow bus routes and major highways in my experience.  Generally bishops will know what other bishops to call if there is a probability someone is a scammer because they are two wards away (they skip one building thinking they are being clever) if relatively close together on the pathway usually traveled.   My bishop used to chuckle about it, he was always the first or the last so very popular and a very nice, but also wise and practical man so he and the bishop chain did right by those who needed them, even if need included some gentle instruction about not gaming the system if they wanted continuing assistance.

Our ward up in Canada sat on an intersection of two main roads and there were a couple of hospitals close by.  My husband would park there for work as it bordered the university.  He came across a number of people living in their car waiting for a bishop to show up sometime.  We ended up doing babysitting a few times when it was the whole family and one parent was in hospital, I think we did dogs a couple of times.  Most of the time he just called the bishop though.

I think I must lead a sheltered life, after reading yours and Rongo's posts.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think I must lead a sheltered life, after reading yours and Rongo's posts.

I likely wouldn't have known about it if my husband hadn't got involved just because of where he parked.  Bishops rarely go around sharing how they help people having problems...which is exactly right.

[ERMD]

There is a Christian charity in our town that is locally owned and operated.  It is pretty big, considering it's a small-town operation.  As few years ago, as part of a service activity, our youth tried to go there to volunteer.  We were told we could not participate due to "doctrinal differences."  Recently, a couple of ward members went there to volunteer (unaware of the previous situation).  They were presented with a document declaring a variety of Trinitarian beliefs with which they had to agree and were required to sign in order to work there.  They did not sign, so they were not allowed to work.

When I read Sis. Bingham's words spoken to the UN, I can't help but see a stark difference.  Having served as a bishop, worked at bishop's storehouses and stake farms, participated in Just Serve initiatives and large-scale disaster relief operations organized by the Church, I can't help but shake my head when I see the criticism directed at the Church for what it does, how it does it, and what it does not do when it comes to humanitarian efforts.  I certainly don't know everyone's situation or experience, but based on my experience, such criticism is levied out of ignorance.

 

[Gray]

15 minutes ago, ERMD said:

There is a Christian charity in our town that is locally owned and operated.  It is pretty big, considering it's a small-town operation.  As few years ago, as part of a service activity, our youth tried to go there to volunteer.  We were told we could not participate due to "doctrinal differences."  Recently, a couple of ward members went there to volunteer (unaware of the previous situation).  They were presented with a document declaring a variety of Trinitarian beliefs with which they had to agree and were required to sign in order to work there.  They did not sign, so they were not allowed to work.

 

That is so obnoxious

[HappyJackWagon]

57 minutes ago, ERMD said:

There is a Christian charity in our town that is locally owned and operated.  It is pretty big, considering it's a small-town operation.  As few years ago, as part of a service activity, our youth tried to go there to volunteer.  We were told we could not participate due to "doctrinal differences."  Recently, a couple of ward members went there to volunteer (unaware of the previous situation).  They were presented with a document declaring a variety of Trinitarian beliefs with which they had to agree and were required to sign in order to work there.  They did not sign, so they were not allowed to work.

When I read Sis. Bingham's words spoken to the UN, I can't help but see a stark difference.  Having served as a bishop, worked at bishop's storehouses and stake farms, participated in Just Serve initiatives and large-scale disaster relief operations organized by the Church, I can't help but shake my head when I see the criticism directed at the Church for what it does, how it does it, and what it does not do when it comes to humanitarian efforts.  I certainly don't know everyone's situation or experience, but based on my experience, such criticism is levied out of ignorance.

 

Sounds kind of like the BYU honor code

If you want to participate you must first sign. Seems shortsighted and exclusionary. But like BYU, the charity can choose the rules of engagement within their organization.

[ERMD]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Sounds kind of like the BYU honor code

If you want to participate you must first sign. Seems shortsighted and exclusionary. But like BYU, the charity can choose the rules of engagement within their organization.

Non-sequitur trolling  that does not address the issue.

Thanks for playing.

Edited April 14, 2017 by ERMD

[HappyJackWagon]

30 minutes ago, ERMD said:

Non-sequitur trolling  that does not address the issue.

Thanks for playing.

Don't be a(n) ________.

[ERMD]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Don't be a(n) ________.

Don't leave us guessing.  Finish the sentence.