One woman speaker

[california boy]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You are also absolutely right.
Like our Heavenly Father, I am saddened that so many are choosing to leave.
And just like our Heavenly Father I am not willing to see a single correct principle, law, or ordinance of the gospel changed to get them to stay.

• Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

The gospel is true.  People have their agency.  Sometimes people make the wrong choice thinking they will be happier.  And they might, for a while.

I don't think anyone wants to see a single correct principle, law or ordinance of the gospel changed to get them to stay.  The question is, is it a correct principle to marginalize women, gays and minorities?  Is it a correct principle to deny baptism to children because of what the church leaders thinks of their parents?  Do you not struggle with those concepts at all?  Or is this one of those infallible principles that church leaders have absolutely right and everyone who doesn't fall in line are wrong and not worthy of being a part of the church.  

When you sin, don't you feel a gnawing in your soul that something needs to be corrected?  That things are not right between you and God?  But when you feel a peace come into your soul over a decision you have made, doesn't it assure you that things are right between you and God?  These are the tools God used to guide us to the right things even when leaders are wrong. Even when leaders have set policy that is in conflict with the message of Christ.  And this is why I trust God.  

When it becomes easier to draw closer to God outside membership in the church, then something is definitely wrong.  Because, make no mistake.  I have had such peace and a feeling of closeness with God since I left the church.  And that is why I stay away.  If I thought that God really doesn't want me to participate in the plan of happiness while on this earth by finding a love one, and experiencing all the things that relationships teach us, then I would be struggling with my choices.  

If you were unable to find a person you truly love, be able to marry them and have a family, would you feel that you were following the plan of God?  Would your heart be content?  Would the spirit whisper to you that you are doing what God wants?  Would your life be at peace? Just because someone is gay doesn't change any of that. Family is what the whole plan of salvation is centered around.  Take that away and what do you have left?

I know I am not going to change your mind.  And why would I.  You have't had to spend countless hours on your knees praying and asking God these questions.  You haven't had to fast countless times to find the answers to these questions.  You haven't had to live with a conflict in your soul for years.  For you it is simply nodding your head and falling in line.  

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The problem is I don't see this as God's law at all. In many ways it is antithetical to what I believe God's law to be. It is man's law being attributed to God, which is hardly the same thing.

But I think we agree on one thing. Sometimes the church isn't the best place for people. If it's not, they should leave. The church doesn't really want or welcome everyone so they should stop pretending they do. Their PR spin isn't working anyway so they should just be honest about who they want and who they don't.

But if people leave it's not because of their own failing, it's the church's.

I agree with your middle sentiment.  Your first and last lines I don't agree with at all.
Especially the last.  That's like saying it was God's fault 1/3 part of his children had to leave his presence forever.

Edited April 7, 2017 by JLHPROF

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree with your middle sentiment.  Your first and last lines I don't agree with at all.
Especially the last.  That's like saying it was God's fault 1/3 part of his children had to leave his presence forever.

No. You're making the classic mistake of treating the church as if it is God. The church is not God. God is not the church.

[carbon dioxide]

On 4/5/2017 at 2:32 AM, california boy said:

You really think God needs us to worship Him?  You think religion and the church is here on earth so that we can do things for God?  Personally I think you have entirely missed the purpose of why we are on this earth.  And with this kind of thinking, perhaps it is why religion is failing.  The sabbath was created for man and not man for the sabbath.  Could Christ have been more clear?  Religion is indeed for the people and what they get out of it.  God certainly does not need one single person to worship Him to be God. We can do nothing for God.  People are not checking the box about whether they are being fulfilled.  They are checking the box to see if religion is bringing them closer to God.  When religion divides people.  When religion keeps sinners out.  When religion discriminates.  When religion is untruthful.  When religion forbids children from being a part of them, THEN they start to check those boxes and leave.  

I agree with almost everything here except the last part.  The Church exists as a vehicle to get people back to God.  We are here to learn obedience to God's will.  We are not here to see how far we can bend God's will towards our will.  People can check the boxes and leave but are they really hurting God or blowing themselves eternally up?  I can't see anyone on the other side giving a standing ovation to anyone who leaves the Church.  They see a little bit better on the eternal consequences.  I think their reaction is more on the lines to those that leave of "Are you serious?  Can you be that foolish?  You can't win this and it will only lead to suffering beyond what you can imagine."

[california boy]

25 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I agree with almost everything here except the last part.  The Church exists as a vehicle to get people back to God.  We are here to learn obedience to God's will.  We are not here to see how far we can bend God's will towards our will.  People can check the boxes and leave but are they really hurting God or blowing themselves eternally up?  I can't see anyone on the other side giving a standing ovation to anyone who leaves the Church.  They see a little bit better on the eternal consequences.  I think their reaction is more on the lines to those that leave of "Are you serious?  Can you be that foolish?  You can't win this and it will only lead to suffering beyond what you can imagine."

Did you read my post at the top of this page?  When the church starts to pull you further away from God, then there is a problem. Marginalizing people and forbidding their children from being baptized does not help one to draw closer to God through the church.  The church doesn't save a single person.  Christ does.  If you end up having a closer relationship to Christ outside the church then I simply don't think it is the foolish decision you are making it out to be.  

Do you honestly think that all those black families that found spirituality outside the church because of man made restrictions made a foolish decision also?  Would they have drawn closer to God by being a member of a church that forbid them from saving ordinances?  It all comes down to this one thing.  Does God really want his gay children to not participate in the plan of salvation while they are here on the earth?  Does He really not want them to find someone to love, and share this life with.  To marry and form families.  Does God really need his gay children to spend all eternity with a woman?  These are all serious questions.  They can not be dismissed easily.  It takes a lot of prayer and aching of the soul to know the will of God.  For me, it was just not enough to nod my head and trust in leaders that have been so wrong about this issue over the past decades.  I really should not of married a woman as my church leaders told me to do.  Being gay is not simply a choice as earlier leaders proclaimed. 

Have you ever thought about how marginalized women can feel in the church?  Is there really only one woman capable of sharing a side of the gospel that all white men might miss?  Have you ever wondered what someone who is a minority thinks when is all they see is all white apostles?  Has there never been a single person of color worthy enough to be an apostle?  Have you ever wondered what it would be like to have the church leaders forbid your children from being baptized?  Have you ever fasted about this issue? Pray about it a bit more.  Pray like your eternal salvation hinges on this issue.  See what the Spirit tells you.  Feel the peace that comes into your soul.  Trust God.

Edited April 7, 2017 by california boy

[rockpond]

43 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I agree with almost everything here except the last part.  The Church exists as a vehicle to get people back to God.  We are here to learn obedience to God's will.  We are not here to see how far we can bend God's will towards our will.  People can check the boxes and leave but are they really hurting God or blowing themselves eternally up?  I can't see anyone on the other side giving a standing ovation to anyone who leaves the Church.  They see a little bit better on the eternal consequences.  I think their reaction is more on the lines to those that leave of "Are you serious?  Can you be that foolish?  You can't win this and it will only lead to suffering beyond what you can imagine."

This makes the assumption that "The Church" and God's will are exactly aligned and overlapping.  I find no reason to accept such a conclusion.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

No. You're making the classic mistake of treating the church as if it is God. The church is not God. God is not the church.

Agreed.  But the Church has the specific responsibility to establish the Kingdom of God on the earth.  (Not to be the Kingdom, that's another issue, but to work for its establishment).

And just as not everyone belongs in the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial Kingdom or the Telestial Kingdom, not everyone belongs in the Church.
And the second we start changing standards in the name of inclusiveness we are no longer what we hope to be.

If those with sin still upon their heads were allowed into the Celestial Kingdom it would no longer be the Celestial Kingdom.  If those who refuse to live all God's laws and ordinances were to receive full exaltation in the top degree, the top degree becomes meaningless.
D&C 130 is very clear on this, as is D&C 88.

The Church may only be an earthly administrative organization, but they have a responsibility to create a society and culture that is as close to the highest Kingdom as they are capable of being.  And if that alienates or marginalizes a group that doesn't like the applicable laws that changes nothing.  I think the Church is out of order for not following some applicable laws, but it is still their calling to do the best.  Not to drop more laws to include more people.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I know I am not going to change your mind.  And why would I.  You have't had to spend countless hours on your knees praying and asking God these questions.  You haven't had to fast countless times to find the answers to these questions.  You haven't had to live with a conflict in your soul for years.  For you it is simply nodding your head and falling in line. 

You have NO idea how much time I have spent on my knees and in fasting concerning my weaknesses and sins.
If you think all I have to do is nod my head and obey and it comes easy you are sadly mistaken.

But I have NEVER expected the Church to drop a standard so that my sins become acceptable.

[Mystery Meat]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

When you sin, don't you feel a gnawing in your soul that something needs to be corrected?  That things are not right between you and God?  But when you feel a peace come into your soul over a decision you have made, doesn't it assure you that things are right between you and God?  These are the tools God used to guide us to the right things even when leaders are wrong. Even when leaders have set policy that is in conflict with the message of Christ.  And this is why I trust God.  

When it becomes easier to draw closer to God outside membership in the church, then something is definitely wrong.  Because, make no mistake.  I have had such peace and a feeling of closeness with God since I left the church.  And that is why I stay away.  If I thought that God really doesn't want me to participate in the plan of happiness while on this earth by finding a love one, and experiencing all the things that relationships teach us, then I would be struggling with my choices.  

There have been times in my life where certain actions seemed so innate that I was troubled the Church could teach them as sin. I was able to convince myself that I was doing no wrong. I felt a measure of peace. It was only willful ignorance on my part, however. I learned how wrong I was, and the "peace" was replaced with pain. Once I properly repented and aligned my will with the Lord's and allowed myself to accept that my actions were sinful, only then was the pain removed and replace with true peace.

In short, I think people are capable of doing everything they can to replace guilt with self-concocted peace when they are not ready/willing to accept that their actions are actually sinful.

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

There have been times in my life where certain actions seemed so innate that I was troubled the Church could teach them as sin. I was able to convince myself that I was doing no wrong. I felt a measure of peace. It was only willful ignorance on my part, however. I learned how wrong I was, and the "peace" was replaced with pain. Once I properly repented and aligned my will with the Lord's and allowed myself to accept that my actions were sinful, only then was the pain removed and replace with true peace.

In short, I think people are capable of doing everything they can to replace guilt with self-concocted peace when they are not ready/willing to accept that their actions are actually sinful.

I do think people can convince themselves that whatever they are doing is right.

However, I don't believe one can fake feeling at peace (for long).  Even "self-concocted peace" would be short lived if it wasn't a true feeling of peace, IMO. We all know when we're at peace and when we're not if we are truly being honest with ourselves.

I really believe we shouldn't judge what might bring peace to another.

Edited April 7, 2017 by JulieM

[SteveO]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

When it becomes easier to draw closer to God outside membership in the church, then something is definitely wrong.  Because, make no mistake.  I have had such peace and a feeling of closeness with God since I left the church.  And that is why I stay away.  If I thought that God really doesn't want me to participate in the plan of happiness while on this earth by finding a love one, and experiencing all the things that relationships teach us, then I would be struggling with my choices.  

If you were unable to find a person you truly love, be able to marry them and have a family, would you feel that you were following the plan of God?  Would your heart be content?  Would the spirit whisper to you that you are doing what God wants?  Would your life be at peace? Just because someone is gay doesn't change any of that. Family is what the whole plan of salvation is centered around.  Take that away and what do you have left?

I know I am not going to change your mind.  And why would I.  You have't had to spend countless hours on your knees praying and asking God these questions.  You haven't had to fast countless times to find the answers to these questions.  You haven't had to live with a conflict in your soul for years.  For you it is simply nodding your head and falling in line.  

You must know that there are gays still in the church who are faithful members?  Did they not spend countless hours on their knees praying and asking God these questions?  Or do only people who have left the church receive that benefit of the doubt?

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, SteveO said:

You must know that there are gays still in the church who are faithful members?  Did they not spend countless hours on their knees praying and asking God these questions?  Or do only people who have left the church receive that benefit of the doubt?

He didn't say that they hadn't.

I don't think anyone who has not been in the situation (gay and mormon) can entirely understand what CB has been through.

[JulieM]

16 minutes ago, SteveO said:

You must know that there are gays still in the church who are faithful members?  Did they not spend countless hours on their knees praying and asking God these questions? 

Not all prayers are answered identically.  

I have a family member who is gay that left the church and is now in a SSM.  I also have a dear friend whose gay son is very active in the church and remains celebate.

They both spent a lot of time on their knees in prayer.  They got different answers.  They followed the answer they received and are both very happy today.

Edited April 7, 2017 by JulieM

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed.  But the Church has the specific responsibility to establish the Kingdom of God on the earth.  (Not to be the Kingdom, that's another issue, but to work for its establishment).

And just as not everyone belongs in the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial Kingdom or the Telestial Kingdom, not everyone belongs in the Church.
And the second we start changing standards in the name of inclusiveness we are no longer what we hope to be.

If those with sin still upon their heads were allowed into the Celestial Kingdom it would no longer be the Celestial Kingdom.  If those who refuse to live all God's laws and ordinances were to receive full exaltation in the top degree, the top degree becomes meaningless.
D&C 130 is very clear on this, as is D&C 88.

The Church may only be an earthly administrative organization, but they have a responsibility to create a society and culture that is as close to the highest Kingdom as they are capable of being.  And if that alienates or marginalizes a group that doesn't like the applicable laws that changes nothing.  I think the Church is out of order for not following some applicable laws, but it is still their calling to do the best.  Not to drop more laws to include more people.

And sometimes the church needs to repent as an institution in the way it excludes others. Sometimes this repentance may look like it is caving to social pressure when really it is aligning more closely with what God would want. Sometimes making changes...even significant ones, means including groups that had been left out. Sometimes the church changes to allow blacks in the temples and the priesthood. Sometimes "doctrines" change for the better.

It would be foolish to claim that change towards inclusion is necessarily a bad thing when we all know the church and its leaders are imperfect.

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And sometimes the church needs to repent as an institution in the way it excludes others. Sometimes this repentance may look like it is caving to social pressure when really it is aligning more closely with what God would want. Sometimes making changes...even significant ones, means including groups that had been left out. Sometimes the church changes to allow blacks in the temples and the priesthood. Sometimes "doctrines" change for the better.

It would be foolish to claim that change towards inclusion is necessarily a bad thing when we all know the church and its leaders are imperfect.

So tired of this comparison.
Race and Sexuality are not comparable.
They may be inborn characteristics (although I remain unconvinced concerning sexuality) but for sexuality you have a choice in your actions.  You have the choice to sin or not.
I am not convinced that homosexuality is a group as much as a behavior.  But even if I am wrong and it is a fundamental trait of DNA, there is still a choice over action and sin.

[SteveO]

43 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Not all prayers are answered identically.  

I have a family member who is gay that left the church and is now in a SSM.  I also have a dear friend whose gay son is very active in the church and remains celebate.

They both spent a lot of time on their knees in prayer.  They got different answers.  They followed the answer they received and are both very happy today.

I'm not saying that its not possible.  But I get irritated when faithful members of the church are described as "simply nodding [their] head and falling in line."

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So tired of this comparison.
Race and Sexuality are not comparable.
They may be inborn characteristics (although I remain unconvinced concerning sexuality) but for sexuality you have a choice in your actions.  You have the choice to sin or not.
I am not convinced that homosexuality is a group as much as a behavior.  But even if I am wrong and it is a fundamental trait of DNA, there is still a choice over action and sin.

Be tired all you like but they do apply.

During the same time as the ban the church taught that interracial marriage was a sin. Now it's not. Did they change the law of God to be more inclusive or did they repent of the racist ideas of their time and culture? Interracial couples had the choice whether or not to act on their love and marry. Following your logic God would not have changed to include them and they could have simply chosen to follow the laws of men that were presented as the laws of God.

So a gay person can choose not to act on the attraction and remain alone for their entire life and possibly eternity (depending on which LDS person you're talking to) yet we know that it is not good for man (or woman) to be alone. So what is one to do? Be eternally miserable or agree to partake of the fruit and live the law of chastity within a monogamous loving relationship? The behavior argument is just as tired to me as the gay comparison is to you. Either every individual has the ability to live by the same law (chastity as defined for boy gay and straight) and have the same access to a happy life, or God turns out to be a bit of a jerk. Some people like a jerky God but I'm not one of those people.

When the church is wrong, like it was with blacks regarding temple, priesthood, interracial marriage etc, it should repent. The same goes for when they are wrong about gays and promote policies of double standards and exclusion. The church should repent.

 

[rodheadlee]

On 4/5/2017 at 7:44 AM, omni said:

 

Do you really believe that an all loving God would damn an otherwise good person for eternity in the Telestial Kingdom, simply for leaving the Church?  I doubt you would support the Taliban for imprisoning someone who converted from Islam to Christianity, so why do you believe a perfectly just God would do something similar (or much worse)?

D&C 84:

40 Therefore, all those who receive the ^apriesthood, receive this ^boath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

  41 But whoso breaketh this ^acovenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall ^bnot have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

  42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels ^acharge concerning you.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

You have NO idea how much time I have spent on my knees and in fasting concerning my weaknesses and sins.
If you think all I have to do is nod my head and obey and it comes easy you are sadly mistaken.

But I have NEVER expected the Church to drop a standard so that my sins become acceptable.

I wasn't talking about your sins.  I was talking about the sins you see in others.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

You must know that there are gays still in the church who are faithful members?  Did they not spend countless hours on their knees praying and asking God these questions?  Or do only people who have left the church receive that benefit of the doubt?

I don't presume to know the answers to other peoples prayers.  I also don't know where they are in their dealing with being gay or these other issues we have been talking about.  I knew I was gay since I was 12 years old.  Yet I served a mission, taught seminary, served in a bishopric, was on the high counsel, YM president.  All the time I wrestled with this issue.  I was so unhappy and trusted no one until I started trusting God and the feelings I had of the course I should take.  Just because someone is in the church does not mean that they are at peace with this issue or any of the other issues we have talked about in this thread.  What we do know is that the majority of gay members eventually leave the church.  What I know is that this policy is not drawing people closer to God.  

Edited April 7, 2017 by california boy

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

So tired of this comparison.
Race and Sexuality are not comparable.
They may be inborn characteristics (although I remain unconvinced concerning sexuality) but for sexuality you have a choice in your actions.  You have the choice to sin or not.
I am not convinced that homosexuality is a group as much as a behavior.  But even if I am wrong and it is a fundamental trait of DNA, there is still a choice over action and sin.

They are absolutely comparable. 

Blacks were asked to live a version of the plan of salvation that differed from what white people were asked to live.  Then, in 1978, that changed. 

Today gays are asked to live a version of the plan or salvation that differs from what OSA people live.  Someday that will change. 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 4/3/2017 at 11:39 AM, stemelbow said:

Come on. 

"One woman speaker"

imagine The God you believe creates 50% of humans as females........ and we give Her less than 10%.

[Storm Rider]

20 hours ago, rockpond said:

This makes the assumption that "The Church" and God's will are exactly aligned and overlapping.  I find no reason to accept such a conclusion.

When I look at every prophet of God from the beginning telling me a very similar message; when I can read the writings of the early Church Fathers of the Catholic tradition; when I can read the great philosophers and they each and every one condemn a behavior as sinful and against God's plan then I can see no reason whatsoever to think that all of the sudden God woke up and began telling his children something totally, completely different.  You may argue all you want but history, all of history, stands as a testament that you are wrong in your thinking.

No, I don't think that the Church of Jesus Christ is perfect or that everything that has ever been stated over the pulpit is the word of God, but I do know that the restoration of real.  I do know that God was active in the lives of holy men and women since time began.  I recognize that God speaks today.  I also acknowledge that some questions will not have answers in this life and I can accept that as a part of a mortal existence.  What I will not do is think that humanity is ever God or that any society can conflict with fundamental principles of God's word and be correct or right.  You can dress it up any way you desire and at the end of the day, as the old saying goes, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  

[rockpond]

40 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

When I look at every prophet of God from the beginning telling me a very similar message; when I can read the writings of the early Church Fathers of the Catholic tradition; when I can read the great philosophers and they each and every one condemn a behavior as sinful and against God's plan then I can see no reason whatsoever to think that all of the sudden God woke up and began telling his children something totally, completely different.  You may argue all you want but history, all of history, stands as a testament that you are wrong in your thinking.

No, I don't think that the Church of Jesus Christ is perfect or that everything that has ever been stated over the pulpit is the word of God, but I do know that the restoration of real.  I do know that God was active in the lives of holy men and women since time began.  I recognize that God speaks today.  I also acknowledge that some questions will not have answers in this life and I can accept that as a part of a mortal existence.  What I will not do is think that humanity is ever God or that any society can conflict with fundamental principles of God's word and be correct or right.  You can dress it up any way you desire and at the end of the day, as the old saying goes, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  

Really?  You are going to appeal to the religious teachings over the history of the world as your rationale for condemning homosexuals to a life of celibacy?  Those same teachings that have brought us crusades, wars, and terrorism?  The teachings that demean women and justified slavery?

Like you, I do not believe that society is ever God.  Scripture is a recording man's interaction with the divine.  It must be revered and we also must remember that as much as it reflects God's will, it also often reflects mortal prejudice and shortcomings. I love the scriptures (just finished my morning study) they are a gift.  Likewise, the Spirit is a gift to each of us.  And our intellect is a gift from God as well.  Somehow we're going to have to bring all of these gifts into harmony. 

[california boy]

58 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

When I look at every prophet of God from the beginning telling me a very similar message; when I can read the writings of the early Church Fathers of the Catholic tradition; when I can read the great philosophers and they each and every one condemn a behavior as sinful and against God's plan then I can see no reason whatsoever to think that all of the sudden God woke up and began telling his children something totally, different.  You may argue all you want but history, all of history, stands as a testament that you are wrong in your thinking.

No, I don't think that the Church of Jesus Christ is perfect or that everything that has ever been stated over the pulpit is the word of God, but I do know that the restoration of real.  I do know that God was active in the lives of holy men and women since time began.  I recognize that God speaks today.  I also acknowledge that some questions will not have answers in this life and I can accept that as a part of a mortal existence.  What I will not do is think that humanity is ever God or that any society can conflict with fundamental principles of God's word and be correct or right.  You can dress it up any way you desire and at the end of the day, as the old saying goes, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.  

Are you referring to slavery which was accepted in the Bible, great philosophers and  throughout religion for thousands of years until just the last 100 years?  Or are you referring to women being the property of their husbands and should not be allowed to have a voice especially in church?  That is the God you worship?  That is the never changing God you think society has destroyed?  Because that was agreed to, throughout the Bible, the Catholic church and great philosophers for centuries.  So your outrage is not that only one woman spoke in Conference, but rather that ANY woman was allowed to speak in Conference.

Wow.  God's will should be reinstituted.  We have strayed so far.  i can see your reason for your outrage.  I am a bit confused though.  You also mentioned something I am interested in hearing.  You mentioned how active God was in the lives of holy men and women since time began.  Can you tell me where I can find the record of the  thousands of holy women since time began?  Because I only know of a handful ever mentioned in all of the thousands of years recorded in scripture. 

Edited April 8, 2017 by california boy