Latest MormonLeak: Ministering to YSA

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I've listened to a couple podcast interviews/panels that he participated on, and he claims to be holding back on a lot of material and only releasing things that he can realistically corroborate and he thinks is of public interest.  He wouldn't disclose what his specific methodology is for what he chooses to release vs. what he holds back though.  

That's interesting.

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree that in my view the attrition rate has gotten worse. In my area...much worse.

While I think that leaders, both local and general, recognize the problem and have the best intentions of increasing engagement among these YSA, I really don't see that any substantive initiatives (other than possibly the missionary age change which I think postpones the attrition) to address the core issues.

What are the core issues? I think this article is interesting. http://faithit.com/10-things-wont-find-church-attract-millennials-frank-powell/

My main takeaway from this leak is that it is really sad that this stuff has to be leaked. Why does it need to be leaked? Because the church chooses not to share this information with the church at large. If they did they may get more diversity in feedback that they could consider AND they could seek the support of parents and loved ones in finding solutions.

It's NOT going to happen anytime soon. The Church has the attitude of holding onto the sinking ship. This is a very slow, arduous process and they are helpless turning the tide.

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The day is nigh approaching when any boundary will be considered too restrictive.  I for one see the value in creating boundaries and teaching principles to govern our lives by.  You call it micromanaging, I call it teaching.  I work with the youth in our ward, and what I see is the exact opposite of micromanagement.  The Aaronic priesthood quorums are designed for the youth to run the program, to make their own decisions and take leadership roles in the quorum.  They decide which activities to do, what lessons they want to learn about, they take turns teaching lessons, they choose which merit badges they want to work on, they plan their own campouts, they plan, shop for, and cook their own meals.  They hold leadership meetings and discuss concerns in the quorum and problem solve on their own.  The leaders are taking more of a supportive role in the back seat.  I have never heard of anyone leaving the church because it suggested that they shouldn't get a tattoo or wear too many ear rings.  We have two young men who come to our ward who wear ear rings.  Nobody even says anything, unless they are passing the sacrament.  Maybe you have been away from church too long, but micromanagement is not the program the church is running for the youth.  Quite the opposite - we are constantly discussing how we can best get out of their way.

Or, it confirms that millennials are not working for what the church has to offer.  The question is how do you instill those values of sacrifice, faith/work, covenant, prayer, patience and temperance in a generation who are noncommittal, suffer from entitlement, live for instant gratification, and who despise boundaries?  If the church were to adapt to accommodate such attitudes, then the church will have nothing to offer of real value to anyone.  

 

First: I've missed you where ya been?

Second:  I am not arguing that the church should lower its boundaries or the level at which they micro manage the youth...they can do as they please...my post was Why the youth of the church are abandoning the church... For the record I was in the bishopric of a University Ward...I have some experience dealing with these issues...I know of what I speak.

[JAHS]

The other recently leaked document:
"Guideline responses to common questions"

Gives some rather superficial responses to some of the questions and sort of dodges a couple of them. But for the most part are some good quick responses without getting into a lot of details and history on the subjects.  

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Since the data is from 2005, it does not seem to be of much use to us.  As per the OP, we don't even know how relevant this data is to us today, for example.  We're still guessing.

I'm not seeing anything that has been leaked in this 12 year old document that can help us 'accurately address the issue' today (and people are still using anecdotal evidence).  Neither does it allow us to 'assess the level of success currently being achieved' because it does not give us any data we can use to assess that.  And finally, individuals that are in a position to come up with alternatives to help would likely not use this 12 year old document to do so because it doesn't offer much information that is relevant or up-to-date.

From a 'what good does the leak of this document accomplish' standpoint, it's pretty negligible.  That's one of the reasons that i doubt these leaks are about giving people more agency and freedom of choice.  

Bluebell...refer back to my first post in this thread...those who are plugged into all news Mormon were well aware of this...but those on the inside who merrily go long as if all is well I guarantee that this leak goes 180 degrees against what they believe to be true and will cause cog did and a major head snap.

[Johnnie Cake]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not so much claiming that it's worthless as i am asking for evidence of it's worth.  So far, it doesn't seem to offer much, and it seems silly not to acknowledge that.

I'd be fine with the church releasing more stuff, but i'm tired of this 'call to transparency' as if being transparent about everything will solve much.  It's hard for the church to even get people to go to meetings that are directly relevant to their own callings and yet we think that if the church just gave people access to other people's meetings it will usher in a new golden age of awesomeness?  I don't think it will.    

Most of the people who are interested in these leaks are interested because humans are naturally nosey, not because they planning to use the information to members' advantage.  Humans like to see what's happening behind the curtain because it satisfies our basic curiosity.  And sometimes, it's also just interesting to see how things work.  But do i think the church is less than it could be because people don't have access to all the data in these meetings?  I don't.  

 

This leak goes completely against everything that the church is trying to claim as reality...a growing vibrant healthy organization expanding and filling the earth...this leak shows just the opposite...it is an institution on the brink of implosion...you add this to my post earlier this week of the collapses of the church in Europe with a major revelation that 800 of the 1100 units will be either eliminated or merged with 1 or 2 other units...this is not a healthy institution...members are running not walking for the doors and if you can't see that you are in complete denial 

[Duncan]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

Bluebell...refer back to my first post in this thread...those who are plugged into all news Mormon were well aware of this...but those on the inside who merrily go long as if all is well I guarantee that this leak goes 180 degrees against what they believe to be true and will cause cog did and a major head snap.

inside? like locally or at the CHQ? I don't get how it would cause any head snap, as local units report to CHQ and this memo from Elder Bateman reports those findings to the brethren so they won't be caught unawares as to the inactivity of YSA

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

This leak goes completely against everything that the church is trying to claim as reality...a growing vibrant healthy organization expanding and filling the earth...this leak shows just the opposite...it is an institution on the brink of implosion...you add this to my post earlier this week of the collapses of the church in Europe with a major revelation that 800 of the 1100 units will be either eliminated or merged with 1 or 2 other units...this is not a healthy institution...members are running not walking for the doors and if you can't see that you are in complete denial 

The institution and its doctrines are true and healthy. It's the members who are becoming unhealthy. The church growth rate is slowing but I see it simply as a sign of the times and am not really surprised by it. 

[churchistrue]

Skimmed through the pdf.  Most surprising thing I found was that we believe that Adam and Eve dwelt in Davies County, Missouri.  

 

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by churchistrue

[Johnnie Cake]

26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

inside? like locally or at the CHQ? I don't get how it would cause any head snap, as local units report to CHQ and this memo from Elder Bateman reports those findings to the brethren so they won't be caught unawares as to the inactivity of YSA

Poor choice of words on my part...I was referring to active traditional church attending members of the church who are kept from this sort of information and have the misimpression that the church is still the fastest growing church in the history of all time and that is still going to fill the earth with Mormon's.  This information runs contrary to this worldview

[Johnnie Cake]

26 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The institution and its doctrines are true and healthy. It's the members who are becoming unhealthy. The church growth rate is slowing but I see it simply as a sign of the times and am not really surprised by it. 

This is a statement of complete denial... if you can't accept that SL we have a problem...there is no hope

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

This is a statement of complete denial... if you can't accept that SL we have a problem...there is no hope

Thank you. I will take that as a compliment ;-)

[JLHPROF]

40 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The institution and its doctrines are true and healthy. It's the members who are becoming unhealthy. The church growth rate is slowing but I see it simply as a sign of the times and am not really surprised by it.

I agree.

While I completely agree that our ministry efforts can always be improved I don't know when it became the responsibility of the Church to save people from themselves or help people who don't want to be helped.
The gospel is what it is.  It's written down.  It's in scripture.  It's practiced and taught every week in meetinghouses all over the world.
It is there for people to investigate, study, accept, or reject.

The problem is that people want the gospel to change to become more inclusive and make everyone feel good about where they are in life. 
That isn't what the gospel is for.  The onus of conversion is on the individual, not the organization.

Edited March 21, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

This leak goes completely against everything that the church is trying to claim as reality...a growing vibrant healthy organization expanding and filling the earth...this leak shows just the opposite...it is an institution on the brink of implosion...you add this to my post earlier this week of the collapses of the church in Europe with a major revelation that 800 of the 1100 units will be either eliminated or merged with 1 or 2 other units...this is not a healthy institution...members are running not walking for the doors and if you can't see that you are in complete denial 

No. You are the one who appears to be woefully ignorant of the scriptures that prophesy that this very thing would happen, why it would happen, how bad it's going to get before things turn around for the better, what is going to happen to those who are causing it to happen, the time when a new burst of large-scale conversions to the restored Church will occur, and what the ultimate destiny will be for those valiant saints who faithfully weather the storm, and what will be the destiny of those wicked who attempt to destroy Zion. 

Before I paste the verses of scripture that speak to all the above, I want you to know if you can't understand what the verses are saying, I will be happy to walk you through the prophecy line by line. Here is the prophecy:

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel. (1Nephi 14)

[california boy]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

My two cents-

I think the majority of the problem stems from a lot of youth growing up without ever gaining a personal testimony in (or being converted to) the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is espoused by the LDS church.

I think in the past, the basic inertia of members' lives help keep them active.  Staying active in the church as an adult was what a person did just as much as getting married and getting a full time job was what a person did.  I'm sure there are tons of members who went their whole lives until they died (bearing testimonies along the way) without ever being fully converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ.  The lives of millennials are governed by different inertia now though--Be yourself, Do your own thing, You are perfect just the way you are, No one can tell you who to be or what to do, question everything, etc.  

Plus, what society said was moral and what the church said was moral were similar enough in previous decades that members could easily be members but also usually fit in comfortably with the majority of people who weren't.  But now, while morality continues to be judged by whatever society says is acceptable, what society says is acceptable is usually directly at odds with the teachings of the church.  

So 1) being a member is not comfortable at all anymore in our culture in general, and 2) rather than inertia holding them to the church with little effort (like it did for earlier generations), it often actively works against their activity in church.  

All that means that being sincerely converted to the gospel (or not being converted) has way more of an impact on activity rates for YSA's than it used to.  Staying a member takes more real commitment and sincere belief than it has for a while.

I think you are completely missing the reason millennials are leaving.  When I was growing up in the church, the narrative was completely believable.  Joseph Smith had a vision of God and Jesus Christ.  Moroni gave him a sacred record written on golden plates.  It contained the dealings God had with the people on the American continents.  The Book of Abraham was written by the hand of Abraham himself.  Joseph Smith didn't want to live the law of polygamy but was forced to by an angel with a flaming sword.  Nothing disputed that.  It all seemed logical and true.  What a story.  God had restored his gospel in these latter days.

How  much of that narrative has been brought into doubt?  How much evidence tells a different story.  They are forced to ignore real evidence in order to believe what seemed logical and true a generation ago. To downplay the significants of this is folly.  

I don't know what decade you grew up in, but what society said was moral and what the church said was moral were similar enough in previous decades that members could easily be members but also usually fit in hasn't matched up since the 50's.  There was plenty of sex going on in my high school in the 60's.  No it is not about morality changing in my opinion.

I think Johnny Cakes brought some important points. Millennials don't easily buy into all the micro management the church likes to impose.  Tattoos, piercings, long hair, bare shoulders, don't date this person, if you are gay you are screwed for life.  The list goes on.  The truth is, millennials think NONE of this stuff matters or is connected to worthiness.  They just don'think God cares how many ear rings they are wearing.  Take a look at how much the institution of the church is responsible for all of this.  Blaming millennials is not going to fix the problem.  How can you be converted to a dogma that just doesn't make any sense to you and goes against everything you think of who God is and how he judges us.  What.  Pray more?  Is that going to change all these things that are unchangeable?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

No. You are the one who appears to be woefully ignorant of the scriptures that prophesy that this very thing would happen, why it would happen, how bad it's going to get before things turn around for the better, what is going to happen to those who are causing it to happen, the time when a new burst of large-scale conversions to the restored Church will occur, and what the ultimate destiny will be for those valiant saints who faithfully weather the storm, and what will be the destiny of those wicked who attempt to destroy Zion. 

Before I paste the verses of scripture that speak to all the above, I want you to know if you can't understand what the verses are saying, I will be happy to walk you through the prophecy line by line. Here is the prophecy:

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel. (1Nephi 14)

Well then, there are no problems.  Everything is going as planned.  No need to examine and evaluate what could be improved or should be addressed differently.

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well then, there are no problems.  Everything is going as planned.  No need to examine and evaluate what could be improved or should be addressed differently.

If the prophecy rings true..just hang it up..The fact that the church is even concerned in a fulfilling prophecy boggles my mind.

[rpn]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

It's also not going to change by chiding people about stricter Sabbath observance. 

If you look at the Jewish example, it very much could make a difference if Sabbath observance helps people identify with their faith, as part of the faith.   I think the Church is shooting for Mormons using the Sabbath like Jews observe it, with traditions that succor and help cohesion.

[Ouagadougou]

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Interestingly Pew has Mormons activity as surprisingly high. Especially considering there is much more to being an active Mormon than an active protestant or Catholic.  The latest Pew data has our retention at 64% with their earlier study having us at 70%. So a slight drop. While a lot of news reports had our retention being much higher in the past that's almost certainly nonsense. The 90% figure you see bandied about appears to be based only on gss data with the dataset being far too small to be trustworthy. I'd be shocked were retention much higher than 70% in the 1970's. 

Getting back to retention that's across all ages since sample sizes are far too small to break out millennials in a meaningful way. Of those who self-identify as Mormon though the vast majority go to meetings regularly and engage in the typical Mormon behaviors. In fact Pew gets activity at such high levels I tend to be a little leery of their data. Pew actually has 65% of all self-identifying Mormons over the age of 18 as having current temple recommends for instance. When you consider that there are a lot of people between the ages of 18-25 who haven't been endowed that's a pretty staggering figure. They have 77% attending meetings weekly and not just monthly.

I have been LDS my entire life and never attended or even say a ward/branch with activity higher than maybe 50-60 percent.    IMO, the majority of members on the church's books are inactive (I would guess 2/3 of the church), and it's way worse among the younger generations.  

[Bobbieaware]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

Well then, there are no problems.  Everything is going as planned.  No need to examine and evaluate what could be improved or should be addressed differently.

Unlike you (someone who believes the Church isn't true and, as a natural consequence of that Inauthenticity, views it's leaders as nothing more than uninspired imposters) I believe the apostles and prophets of the Church are who they say they are and that they are leading the kingdom of God according to the Lord's own will and counsel.

As an aside, I'm wondering why someone who believes the Church isn't true seems to frequently insist that it's uninspired leaders teach and act in accordance with your higher form of wisdom when, according to you, they are obviously ill-equipped to be able to do so is beyond me?

It seems likely you must be aware of the fact that Jesus Christ -- someone I believe to be the greatest, wisest, most loving, inspired and effective religious leader of all time -- succeeded in turning thousands of people to his favor during his miraculous three-year missionary ministry in the Holy Land. Yet at the time that seemingly very successful ministry came to a close there remained a remnant of only about 130 believers who continued to  participate as active members of the Church. Perhaps if Jesus  had a group modern-style progressives to advise him his convert retention rate could have been so much higher. In fact, perhaps you can humor me and set forth some of the counsel you would have given to Jesus to greatly improve his convert retention rate.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

If the prophecy rings true..just hang it up..The fact that the church is even concerned in a fulfilling prophecy boggles my mind.

Could you please rephrase the above comment so I'll have a better idea what it is you're saying?

[Thinking]

10 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why does it need to be leaked? Because the church chooses not to share this information with the church at large.

In my opinion the leaders want the general membership to believe that all is well.

Quote

Some have asserted that more members are leaving the Church today and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past. This is simply not true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger.   Quentin L. Cook

The Book of Mormon warns against claiming that all is well when it isn't.

Quote

Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion! Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!   2 Nephi 28:24,25

 

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

No. You are the one who appears to be woefully ignorant of the scriptures that prophesy that this very thing would happen, why it would happen, how bad it's going to get before things turn around for the better, what is going to happen to those who are causing it to happen, the time when a new burst of large-scale conversions to the restored Church will occur, and what the ultimate destiny will be for those valiant saints who faithfully weather the storm, and what will be the destiny of those wicked who attempt to destroy Zion. 

Before I paste the verses of scripture that speak to all the above, I want you to know if you can't understand what the verses are saying, I will be happy to walk you through the prophecy line by line. Here is the prophecy:

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel. (1Nephi 14)

Feeling better?

[rockpond]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

Sure, I think those are valid things to consider.  I don't know what that might look like, but if we can find more effective and faith promoting ways to come together as a community then I am all for it.  Shorter blocks?  You have my vote!  While such changes may be popular, I do see them as superficial and not sufficient to generate long-term faith commitment.  Nothing can take the place of sacred sacrifice, of nourishing the seed daily, of living the gospel ...if only it was a video game, then we might have more success with millennials!

I wasn't suggesting that the 3-hour block should be shorter. 

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

 Blaming millennials is not going to fix the problem.  How can you be converted to a dogma that just doesn't make any sense to you and goes against everything you think of who God is and how he judges us.  

Millennials schmillennials, I don't care what you call them, if they want to be a member of God's church like everyone else they will have to accept what He wants us to do and believe in today and trust what our latter-day prophets say. If they don't want to do that then this church is not for them. Nevertheless they need to take responsibility for their own salvation and not expect the church to be "carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Eph 4: 14) just to satisfy what they think God should be. They will still be saved in one of God's kingdoms anyway.