Latest MormonLeak: Ministering to YSA

[clarkgoble]

12 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

I have been LDS my entire life and never attended or even say a ward/branch with activity higher than maybe 50-60 percent.    IMO, the majority of members on the church's books are inactive (I would guess 2/3 of the church), and it's way worse among the younger generations.  

We have to be careful extrapolating from the wards we've lived in.

I'm just going by the ARIS and Pew data. They roughly agree with each other. For more information on what I mentioned you can check out the blog post I did on it a while back. The main problem is that the church figures includes 8-17 year olds whereas Pew and ARIS only look at those 18 and over. I did a few rough calculations to estimate the number of 8-17 year olds and I get an activity rate of about 65% for members of record. If you judge activity purely in terms of attending church regularly you probably end up just below 60% as about 92% of self-identified Mormons attend at least once a month. Which interestingly is close to the Pew figures for retention of adults who say they were raised Mormon. 

I think the evidence is pretty striking that most inactive members don't really consider themselves Mormon at all.

Edited March 22, 2017 by clarkgoble

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, california boy said:

I think you are completely missing the reason millennials are leaving.  When I was growing up in the church, the narrative was completely believable.  Joseph Smith had a vision of God and Jesus Christ.  Moroni gave him a sacred record written on golden plates.  It contained the dealings God had with the people on the American continents.  The Book of Abraham was written by the hand of Abraham himself.  Joseph Smith didn't want to live the law of polygamy but was forced to by an angel with a flaming sword.  Nothing disputed that.  It all seemed logical and true.  What a story.  God had restored his gospel in these latter days.

How  much of that narrative has been brought into doubt?  How much evidence tells a different story.  They are forced to ignore real evidence in order to believe what seemed logical and true a generation ago. To downplay the significants of this is folly.  

I don't know what decade you grew up in, but what society said was moral and what the church said was moral were similar enough in previous decades that members could easily be members but also usually fit in hasn't matched up since the 50's.  There was plenty of sex going on in my high school in the 60's.  No it is not about morality changing in my opinion.

I think Johnny Cakes brought some important points. Millennials don't easily buy into all the micro management the church likes to impose.  Tattoos, piercings, long hair, bare shoulders, don't date this person, if you are gay you are screwed for life.  The list goes on.  The truth is, millennials think NONE of this stuff matters or is connected to worthiness.  They just don'think God cares how many ear rings they are wearing.  Take a look at how much the institution of the church is responsible for all of this.  Blaming millennials is not going to fix the problem.  How can you be converted to a dogma that just doesn't make any sense to you and goes against everything you think of who God is and how he judges us.  What.  Pray more?  Is that going to change all these things that are unchangeable?

Like i said, the narrative hasn't really changed, but it used to be a lot easier to believe.  

I grew up in the 80's and 90's (graduated in 1995) and i can tell you that being a member back then was not at all difficult (and i didn't grow up in Utah).  My morals fit in with the morals of 80-90% of my high school even though there were only a handful of lds kids.  That has changed for my kids (who are now middle school and high school ages).

I think you are overstepping your bounds pretty aggressively by trying to suggest that no millennials think any of that stuff matters.  I know many millennials who do believe that stuff matters and that it's connected to worthiness, and you can't pretend they don't exist just because you disagree with them.  Many (tens of thousands) millennials still manage to be converted.  

Overall though i think you completely missed the point of my post.  I'm not blaming millennials, i'm saying that in a lot of ways they have it much harder than previous generations.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, rockpond said:

Yes, I think many members would be shocked to learn that each year we lose a number of young single adults that is equivalent to half of the new children of record.  And that's just the loss rate for the group of 18-25 year olds. 

Where does it say that last year we lost YSA that is equivalent to half of the new children of record?  Did I miss that somewhere?

[JAHS]

14 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Sorry, but it is ridiculous to believe that Christ cares if you have 1 pair or 2 pairs of earrings in each ear.  That's a man made rule, IMO, and the different ways local leaders interpret these rules and enforce them, is part of the problem I think.  My sister is one of the most Christlike persons I know, but she was kept from doing baptisms because of wearing one too many pairs of earrings?

It's this type of thing that younger members aren't buying into and they're leaving.

But that could not have been the only reason she left the church. Of course Christ doesn't care about the earrings, but like I said it's the attitude of disobedience and lack of humility that is causing them to leave. 

[JulieM]

Just now, JAHS said:

But that could not have been the only reason she left the church. Of course Christ doesn't care about the earrings, but like I said it's the attitude of disobedience and lack of humility that is causing them to leave. 

You're right that wasn't the only reason, but it was a hit and she experienced others that were similar regarding man made rules or policies vs. Christ's teachings.  She also couldn't get any good answers for some church history issues (and she did go to her leaders with questions and really tried to continue believing). The final blow was the new policy regarding SSM.  That's a huge issue for her generation.

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

But that could not have been the only reason she left the church. Of course Christ doesn't care about the earrings, but like I said it's the attitude of disobedience and lack of humility that is causing them to leave. 

Obedience to silly rules for obedience's sake isn't a virtue. Or if you think so, perhaps you should do everything I tell you to do, or else be accused of being prideful? 

[clarkgoble]

14 hours ago, california boy said:

I think you are completely missing the reason millennials are leaving.  When I was growing up in the church, the narrative was completely believable.  Joseph Smith had a vision of God and Jesus Christ.  Moroni gave him a sacred record written on golden plates.  It contained the dealings God had with the people on the American continents.  The Book of Abraham was written by the hand of Abraham himself.  Joseph Smith didn't want to live the law of polygamy but was forced to by an angel with a flaming sword.  Nothing disputed that.  It all seemed logical and true.  What a story.  God had restored his gospel in these latter days.How  much of that narrative has been brought into doubt?  How much evidence tells a different story.  They are forced to ignore real evidence in order to believe what seemed logical and true a generation ago. To downplay the significants of this is folly.  

There was plenty of anti-Mormon material when I was a kid. While it's more easily available today, most of it was available on the internet in the late 90's. So that's not what's changing. Further the change isn't just affecting Mormonism but religion in general. If anything Mormons are coming out of it better than most.

Quote

I don't know what decade you grew up in, but what society said was moral and what the church said was moral were similar enough in previous decades that members could easily be members but also usually fit in hasn't matched up since the 50's.  There was plenty of sex going on in my high school in the 60's.  No it is not about morality changing in my opinion.

I think there is a big difference in acceptability. When I was young it happened but there was still a vague sense that one shouldn't do it. Within the last decade social norms really have shifted a great deal. From the point where there's no longer a vague sense that one is violating social and religious norms to the point where it is religion itself that is perceived as being wrong and violating social norms. That's a pretty huge shift.

Also in the past even for those not that religious there were reasons to at least be nominally associated with a religion. That's shifted quite a bit to people preferring a loose sense of spirituality. There's also been a shift away from community involvement and the rise of the Nones tends to have a significantly above average sense of this social involvement. It's not just a shift away from religion but a shift away from other social organizations including sports.

Pew had a good discussion last year.  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/13/a-closer-look-at-americas-rapidly-growing-religious-nones/

 

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

Obedience to silly rules for obedience's sake isn't a virtue. Or if you think so, perhaps you should do everything I tell you to do, or else be accused of being prideful? 

But you are not a prophet of God, so no I wouldn't do everything you tell me. Now if you were a car mechanic helping me fix my car then maybe I would.

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

But you are not a prophet of God, so no I wouldn't do everything you tell me. 

But we also are taught that Prophets are not infallible.  That's where personal inspiration comes in.

Do you really believe that only wearing one pair of earrings came from God?  Or did it come from a man who just had an opinion regarding that?  I think many younger (and older) believe the later.

[Gray]

14 hours ago, rpn said:

If you look at the Jewish example, it very much could make a difference if Sabbath observance helps people identify with their faith, as part of the faith.   I think the Church is shooting for Mormons using the Sabbath like Jews observe it, with traditions that succor and help cohesion.

If that's the angle, then they need to find a new target. Sabbath observance isn't uniquely Mormon. They'd be better off emphasizing the Word of Wisdom more. 

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, JAHS said:

But you are not a prophet of God, so no I wouldn't do everything you tell me. Now if you were a car mechanic helping me fix my car then maybe I would.

That just proves how prideful you are. If you were truly humble you'd do everything I say without question.

Obviously I'm not serious, but that's what the "you just disagree because you're prideful" argument sounds like.  

[stemelbow]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like i said, the narrative hasn't really changed, but it used to be a lot easier to believe.  

I grew up in the 80's and 90's (graduated in 1995) and i can tell you that being a member back then was not at all difficult (and i didn't grow up in Utah).  My morals fit in with the morals of 80-90% of my high school even though there were only a handful of lds kids.  That has changed for my kids (who are now middle school and high school ages).

I think you are overstepping your bounds pretty aggressively by trying to suggest that no millennials think any of that stuff matters.  I know many millennials who do believe that stuff matters and that it's connected to worthiness, and you can't pretend they don't exist just because you disagree with them.  Many (tens of thousands) millennials still manage to be converted.  

Overall though i think you completely missed the point of my post.  I'm not blaming millennials, i'm saying that in a lot of ways they have it much harder than previous generations.

I still would say California boy made a pretty well reasoned post.  I don't think he says no millennials, but like you said things have changed in the past 20 years for kids.  The general trend is more and more millennials find less and less connection to Church.  Within the LDS Church I'd say there are many reasons for that.  Some are as mentioned by California boy.  Now that's a generalized comment, fo course.  Of course there are exceptions, of course there are plenty of millennials who will embrace, what I'd call, a pretty pharisaic system when it comes to Church.  But I think it's evident as the rising generations keep coming interest will continue to wane. 

I'd maintain the Church will make plenty of changes int he next few years some of them will be big.  And they'll have to do it unless they want to continue to see good people leaving at higher and higher rates.  This trend of the younger generation is really just a symptom of big issues. 

[california boy]

11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There was plenty of anti-Mormon material when I was a kid. While it's more easily available today, most of it was available on the internet in the late 90's. So that's not what's changing. Further the change isn't just affecting Mormonism but religion in general. If anything Mormons are coming out of it better than most.

I think there is a big difference in acceptability. When I was young it happened but there was still a vague sense that one shouldn't do it. Within the last decade social norms really have shifted a great deal. From the point where there's no longer a vague sense that one is violating social and religious norms to the point where it is religion itself that is perceived as being wrong and violating social norms. That's a pretty huge shift.

Also in the past even for those not that religious there were reasons to at least be nominally associated with a religion. That's shifted quite a bit to people preferring a loose sense of spirituality. There's also been a shift away from community involvement and the rise of the Nones tends to have a significantly above average sense of this social involvement. It's not just a shift away from religion but a shift away from other social organizations including sports.

Pew had a good discussion last year.  http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/13/a-closer-look-at-americas-rapidly-growing-religious-nones/

 

I think you have brought up some very valid points. I am still however not convinced that the reason for the bleeding is because sex is more accepted in society.  For Mormons, that was already a line drawn in the sand and one that most decided to embrace as part of their belief in the Mormon church narrative.  When you loose faith in the narrative of the Mormon church, then I think it is much easier to cross that line, further pulling you away from church activity.

[rpn]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

If that's the angle, then they need to find a new target. Sabbath observance isn't uniquely Mormon. They'd be better off emphasizing the Word of Wisdom more. 

So you are saying, pick something other than what God Himself designated in the Ten Commandments, because that won't work as well as WofW?  Sabbath is uniquely God's tool.   And I'd bet He is happy when everyone does it as commitment to Him.

Edited March 22, 2017 by rpn

[JAHS]

9 minutes ago, JulieM said:

You're right that wasn't the only reason, but it was a hit and she experienced others that were similar regarding man made rules or policies vs. Christ's teachings.  She also couldn't get any good answers for some church history issues (and she did go to her leaders with questions and really tried to continue believing). The final blow was the new policy regarding SSM.  That's a huge issue for her generation.

There you have it. The disobedience to the small things led to the lack of understanding for the reasons for a bigger thing. To me the new policy on SSM makes good sense. It protects the child from conflicts with his parents and retains control that the parents should be allowed to have over what he is taught in their home until he is an adult. 

[clarkgoble]

12 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think you have brought up some very valid points. I am still however not convinced that the reason for the bleeding is because sex is more accepted in society.  For Mormons, that was already a line drawn in the sand and one that most decided to embrace as part of their belief in the Mormon church narrative.  When you loose faith in the narrative of the Mormon church, then I think it is much easier to cross that line, further pulling you away from church activity.

It's not just sex but also things like homosexuality which while technically part of sex have shifted far more. 

I'm still not convinced the "lost faith in the narrative of the Church" is the prime mover here. Rather I think it is this much broader social shift due to larger social reasons. There's no doubt some leave because they stop believing in prophets. But I suspect they're the minority.

Edited March 22, 2017 by clarkgoble

[JAHS]

19 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But we also are taught that Prophets are not infallible.  That's where personal inspiration comes in.

Do you really believe that only wearing one pair of earrings came from God?  Or did it come from a man who just had an opinion regarding that?  I think many younger (and older) believe the later.

The earring idea of course came from the man. The general concept of not being a worldly person comes from God. Not wearing multiple earrings or tattoos, etc. helps keep us from being identified as a product of the secular world. 

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Church is not an America only operation.  One should not compare the younger generation of the US to be the same as the younger generation in other parts of the world.  The question really is does the Church really require a growing membership to exist?   I don't think so.  If one was to to present two different options one with being a church that has 50 million members by 2050 but 99% of them are lukewarm and really don't accept the teachings or a church of just 1 or 2 million strong members who do accept the teachings, which is the preferred one that the Church should be?   In the end there is only one number that really matters the most and that is the number one.  The one being each individual member or US.  If the Church is growing like a weed but we are not living the commandments and doing what we are supposed to do, it does not matter for us personally in our salvation.  We will be on the outside looking in.  On the other hand if we are where we should be it does not matter if even 99.99% of the Church members leave, we will be just fine.  We spend too much time worrying about numbers.  Just worry about what is in our control and don't worry about what is not.

I agree with you that other countries will have very different dynamics at play, especially in less developed nations.  

The church can certainly continue to exist even with reduced numbers.  There are many churches with less than 1M members that continue to exist, their influence on the broader culture will be weakened significantly, but that doesn't mean they go out of business with fewer numbers. 

As for your comments about living the commandments, I think you're implying that the choice the church would have to make to appeal to the younger generations would be in direct violation of commandments.  If thats what you mean, I strongly disagree, as I think its a failure to follow commandments that has created this predicament in the first place.  

[JulieM]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

There you have it. The disobedience to the small things led to the lack of understanding for the reasons for a bigger thing. 

That's a complete misrepresentation and your attitude and judgmental statements are good examples of what is contributing to driving them away from the church.

[Gray]

14 minutes ago, rpn said:

So you are saying, pick something other than what God Himself designated in the Ten Commandments, because that won't work as well as WofW?  Sabbath is uniquely God's tool.   And I'd bet He is happy when everyone does it as commitment to Him.

I'm saying if you're looking to increase cohesion, find something uniquely Mormon. The Sabbath is uniquely Jewish, and we don't really follow the Sabbath that's in the ten commandments anyway. We follow a weird hybrid of the Sabbath and the Lord's Day. 

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, rpn said:

So you are saying, pick something other than what God Himself designated in the Ten Commandments, because that won't work as well as WofW?  Sabbath is uniquely God's tool.   And I'd bet He is happy when everyone does it as commitment to Him.

It feels like tradition and guesswork when we apply this stuff to God.  Jesus was recorded as objecting to the strict observance of the Sabbath in his day. 

[JLHPROF]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

I think Johnny Cakes brought some important points. Millennials don't easily buy into all the micro management the church likes to impose.  Tattoos, piercings, long hair, bare shoulders, don't date this person, if you are gay you are screwed for life.  The list goes on.  The truth is, millennials think NONE of this stuff matters or is connected to worthiness.  They just don'think God cares how many ear rings they are wearing.  Take a look at how much the institution of the church is responsible for all of this.  Blaming millennials is not going to fix the problem.  How can you be converted to a dogma that just doesn't make any sense to you and goes against everything you think of who God is and how he judges us.  What.  Pray more?  Is that going to change all these things that are unchangeable?

Found the problem.
Somewhere along the way we got the wrong idea that the truth of God has any relationship to what WE think it should be.
God's truth is completely independent of any opinion we might hold.

The Millennial issue isn't one of morality.  It's one of self-centeredness.  Note: NOT selfishness - I think Millennials are just as generous and hardworking as anyone.  It's an issue of self-focus.  You see it in the workplace and higher education all the time.  You see it in politics.  And now you see it in their religious ideals.

Gone are the days of searching for truth.  Now everyone is searching for "their truth".
 

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, JAHS said:

There you have it. The disobedience to the small things led to the lack of understanding for the reasons for a bigger thing. To me the new policy on SSM makes good sense. It protects the child from conflicts with his parents and retains control that the parents should be allowed to have over what he is taught in their home until he is an adult. 

The policy does not protect children in any sense.  If the child objects to his/her parents relationship because of Church teaching, it matters not if the child gets baptized or not.  The child would still object. This confuses me because I can think of a number of things that my children object to when it comes to my wife and i's policies, teachings and procedures.  There's no particular difficulty there.  They disagree...big deal. 

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, JAHS said:

There you have it. The disobedience to the small things led to the lack of understanding for the reasons for a bigger thing. To me the new policy on SSM makes good sense. It protects the child from conflicts with his parents and retains control that the parents should be allowed to have over what he is taught in their home until he is an adult. 

or disobedience to the stupid and useless things led to a greater appreciation for important things and so she left. 

[clarkgoble]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It feels like tradition and guesswork when we apply this stuff to God.  Jesus was recorded as objecting to the strict observance of the Sabbath in his day. 

I think he was objecting to some of the rules that had sprung up beyond the law of Moses. There's no sign he didn't fully support following the law of Moses - which frankly had more micromanagement than rules on earrings at the temple. I think the temple is an unique case since it's all about moving yourself temporarily from the secular world to a different sort of environment. We don't say you always have to wear white but at the temple we all wear white.

That said I do think part of the social issue is that Mormons socially have a set of loose norms about dress and behavior not really formally part of the religion. Little things like what "Sunday best" means in terms of dress. If you don't want to wear a dress for instance then that will chaff at you. So I really do think peer group issues can be a big deal when there starts to be practical conflict between what the norms of the two peer groups are. (For the record I think that's precisely why the Church makes the more formal rules on things like tattoos -- to help keep kids out of certain peer groups)