In defense of the City Creek Center

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe affordable care centers, research centers, hospitals, housing for the needy. They would employ people. But you made a good point GG, didn't realize how many jobs there were in malls.  

Don't assume they are not working on those as well. I know they have helped primary children's hospital, which doesn't turn away any child who can't afford it. 

[Calm]

I can see two reasons for the Church to put significant investment into SLC.  One is purely economic, the other relates to the Church's mission of proclaiming the Gospel.  The Church has a lot of property in SLC and the area.  I wonder how much value all of that would lose if the Church in essence pull back to the boundaries of temple square and let everything else go to hell.

And how far the numbers visiting temple square would drop.  That just isn't about tourism,but is a huge missionary tool.  Most tourists/visitors I talk to come for multiple reasons to Utah,  but most try to hit temple square while they are here.  If there was nothing else around to attract them and if in fact there was significant urban blight to discourage them, I suspect numbers would be much, much lower.  The Church is intimately tied in peoples' mind with SLC, if it was known the Church held off investing in it, I suspect the Church would be seen as self centered, uncaring about its neighbors, disloyal to its history and the place that allowed it to grow in strength until it was ready to become a global Church.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Ahab said:

We support areas all over the world. Not just our own areas.

Really?  Did the Church build a mall in a few other cities recently in order to bolster the local economy?

[PeterPear]

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Really?  Did the Church build a mall in a few other cities recently in order to bolster the local economy?

Would it need to?

Why don't you just donate your mall.

http://www.deserettrust.com/realestate.html

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

Ah yes... the Mall argument yet again... 

Tacenda... I'll bet there's hundreds of people employed behind the scenes in those stores... from the receivers on the docks, to the pressers of clothing in prep for display, those who actually put items on hangers, folded on shelves, displayed in cases, the stock rooms... jobs that don't require advanced educations... then there's the sales staff... and there's the custodial staff that vacuums, dusts, and keep the stores looking good and welcoming... those that keep track of inventory... and on and on... hundreds of jobs that can be filled by those with minimum education.  And I bet every one of them is filled by someone glad to have the job, who might not qualify for other jobs requiring more skill or education... but who serve a needed service for the stores...

GG

All likely true. But should THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST be in the business of owning a place for retail outlets to be established?  Also I wonder what do this do the business of the outdoor mall a few blocks west of City Creek?  Is that still a vibrant mall?  My guess is City Creek just took business away from that and other malls in the SLC area.  And further as I have noted, why should the Church invest such an inordinate amount of money in the SCL/Utah economy when the majority of the church members do not live there?

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, PeterPear said:

Seriously? Didn't the Church found a city called Nauvoo? Or one called Salt Lake City? Wasn't it revealed to Joseph Smith the layout of the city of Zion? Used to design Far West, Missouri?

Didn't the Lord reveal to Joseph Smith in D&C 124 that he should build the Nauvoo House meant for weary-travelers, LDS or not and how it should financed?

Didn't the Lord reveal that the Mansion House should built and it was used as a hotel?

Why would the Lord cease revealing how his funds should be used because your His critic?

Well all of your assertions above are debatable as to how much God was or was not involved in all of these things.

[rchorse]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

...And further as I have noted, why should the Church invest such an inordinate amount of money in the SCL/Utah economy when the majority of the church members do not live there?

Is there another church headquarters or another metro area anywhere in the world as densely populated with Mormons as Utah? Arizona and Idaho have a lot of Mormons but don't really rival Utah.

The problem with the rationale that most members live outside Utah is that the membership is so scattered, especially outside the U.S., that there's not the critical mass necessary for a lot of things. 

That said, as has been noted earlier on this thread, a similar development is proceeding in Philadelphia, although on a smaller scale. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by rchorse

[MormonVideoGame]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

 That just isn't about tourism,but is a huge missionary tool. 

Why does God need malls, ads, expensive Pass-Along Cards, and expensive pamphlets for missionary work? The early church (both in first century and 1830s) didn't need malls, pamphlets, pass-along cards for rapid growth.

[Garden Girl]

17 minutes ago, Teancum said:

All likely true. But should THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST be in the business of owning a place for retail outlets to be established?  Also I wonder what do this do the business of the outdoor mall a few blocks west of City Creek?  Is that still a vibrant mall?  My guess is City Creek just took business away from that and other malls in the SLC area.  And further as I have noted, why should the Church invest such an inordinate amount of money in the SCL/Utah economy when the majority of the church members do not live there?

Good Morning Teancum... on a rainy Spring morning here on the central Oregon coast... 

I do understand what you are saying and your point is not lost on me, but SLC is known worldwide as the city founded by the Church... the headquarters for the Church as others have pointed out... the Temple Square area draws thousands (millions?) of visitors to SLC, which benefits the economy generally... I've never been to City Creek Mall but my understanding is that there are several upscale stores that many visitors, and residents, would bypass in favor of the nearby smaller outdoor mall that you mention... i.e., there's room, and need, for both to contribute to the city's health, beauty, and economy.  IMO, when you consider the number of visitors to SLC, including non-members and members alike, where the majority of Church members live, i.e., outside of SLC/Utah, is not that relevant.

My last visit to SLC was a few years go while visiting a friend.  We went to Temple Square and the plaza area... how beautiful!! The flowers were so very beautiful.  The Conference Center...  

GG 

[carbon dioxide]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

And how far the numbers visiting temple square would drop.  That just isn't about tourism,but is a huge missionary tool.  Most tourists/visitors I talk to come for multiple reasons to Utah,  but most try to hit temple square while they are here.  If there was nothing else around to attract them and if in fact there was significant urban blight to discourage them, I suspect numbers would be much, much lower.  The Church is intimately tied in peoples' mind with SLC, if it was known the Church held off investing in it, I suspect the Church would be seen as self centered, uncaring about its neighbors, disloyal to its history and the place that allowed it to grow in strength until it was ready to become a global Church.

One thing the church could do locally for missionary work and making its image stronger is to encourage the leaders of the government to loosen up some of the alcohol laws and other things in Utah.  That would be  a gesture of good will rather than be a thorn in the side of the local non-LDS residence of Utah. That might do far more than investing in temple square. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, rchorse said:

Is there another church headquarters or another metro area anywhere in the world as densely populated with Mormons as Utah? Arizona and Idaho have a lot of Mormons but don't really rival Utah.

The problem with the rationale that most members live outside Utah is that the membership is so scattered, especially outside the U.S., that there's not the critical mass necessary for a lot of things. 

That said, as has been noted earlier on this thread, a similar development is proceeding in Philadelphia, although on a smaller scale. 

No there is not.  Does that Justify pouring a very large sum into economic development into the local community where church headquarters is?  The gist of the article is the mall is an economic boon to the SLC and Utah economy.  Is it the job of the Church to spur economic development where its headquarters are?  If yes why?

[Teancum]

18 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

Good Morning Teancum... on a rainy Spring morning here on the central Oregon coast... 

I do understand what you are saying and your point is not lost on me, but SLC is known worldwide as the city founded by the Church... the headquarters for the Church as others have pointed out... the Temple Square area draws thousands (millions?) of visitors to SLC, which benefits the economy generally... I've never been to City Creek Mall but my understanding is that there are several upscale stores that many visitors, and residents, would bypass in favor of the nearby smaller outdoor mall that you mention... i.e., there's room, and need, for both to contribute to the city's health, beauty, and economy.  IMO, when you consider the number of visitors to SLC, including non-members and members alike, where the majority of Church members live, i.e., outside of SLC/Utah, is not that relevant.

My last visit to SLC was a few years go while visiting a friend.  We went to Temple Square and the plaza area... how beautiful!! The flowers were so very beautiful.  The Conference Center...  

GG 

I understand the desire of the Church to have the area surrounding Temple Square Etc look nice and not run down.  I think there were other ways to do this probably at less cost than a mutli-billion $ mall.

 

 

[Ouagadougou]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Only to the deeply stupid.

Because President Trump hasn't talked about jobs or creating jobs once over the last six months, right?  I didn't realize a church's focus should be on economic development/jobs/malls.  The church, IMO, sounds more like a corporation in this case because of its focus on jobs and economic development.  I guess at the end of the day, $ is the priority for some...

Mission of the Church:

 1. Perfect the saints

 2.  Proclaim the gospel

 3.  Redeem the dead

 4. Care for the poor and needy

 5. Create jobs

 6.  Build malls 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Ouagadougou

[strappinglad]

For the first several decades of my life, my family was assigned an amount to be given to the bishop for a " building fund " Such was to be used for building maintenance and repair and for future buildings when needed. We haven't had that particular request for many years now. I wonder, did the buildings stop needing repairs or supplies of paper and soap? Did the Church stop building new structures? Oh I know, the Lord just took a bunch of gold and silver from the earth and piled it up in the basement of the Church Office building so all such expenses could be covered without anyone getting their hands dirty. It all started with Josephs ' treasure seeking ' you know.  Then there is the parable of the talents which suggests that the Lord likes one to increase their wealth and not just bury it for a rainy day. That is , of course, only metaphor. The money needed to do the work of the Lord in the world doesn't fall off trees on Temple square. For the majority of the branches in the world outside of the US, more money must be spent to build and maintain them than ever comes in from the local membership. The business interests of the Church provides profits which can be used all over and at the same time reduces the burden on members. Hurrah for smart investing !

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

I understand the desire of the Church to have the area surrounding Temple Square Etc look nice and not run down.  I think there were other ways to do this probably at less cost than a mutli-billion $ mall.

The mall was not the whole cost of the project. Online shopping seems to be the trend anyway.  Malls are closing around the country.   I am not a big fan of the whole thing.  There are probably a hundred better things the Church could focus its time and money on. 

[rockpond]

On 3/17/2017 at 11:16 AM, MormonVideoGame said:

In our opinion: City Creek Center visionaries and developers deserve a round of applause By Deseret News editorial board

I think the mall was a good idea because it helped the economy, and created many jobs which help the poor. 

Will the church ever fund similar projects in poor countries like Mexico, Brazil, Ghana? or at least in poor USA cities like Detroit, Michigan. Fresno, California. El Paso, Texas. Flint, Michigan. Memphis, Tennessee? 

1.  No big surprise that the editorial board of the Church owned newspaper (with offices less than 3 blocks away from CCC) agrees with their parent company's decision to build the mall.

2.  Building a mall isn't the only way to help the economy or create jobs.

3. I don't think a similar project is needed in poor countries but it would be great to see the church pour a $1.5b into projects that would benefit the lives of the poor and hungry around the globe.

4. Detroit, Fresno, El Paso, Flint, and Memphis don't even compare to the problems in Mexico, Brazil, and Ghana.

 

I respect those who are willing to call CCC what it is:  The Church's attempt to make money and keep SLC a world-class city.  Continued attempts to ascribe more noble motivations are laughable.

[rockpond]

47 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

For the first several decades of my life, my family was assigned an amount to be given to the bishop for a " building fund " Such was to be used for building maintenance and repair and for future buildings when needed. We haven't had that particular request for many years now. I wonder, did the buildings stop needing repairs or supplies of paper and soap? Did the Church stop building new structures? Oh I know, the Lord just took a bunch of gold and silver from the earth and piled it up in the basement of the Church Office building so all such expenses could be covered without anyone getting their hands dirty. It all started with Josephs ' treasure seeking ' you know.  Then there is the parable of the talents which suggests that the Lord likes one to increase their wealth and not just bury it for a rainy day. That is , of course, only metaphor. The money needed to do the work of the Lord in the world doesn't fall off trees on Temple square. For the majority of the branches in the world outside of the US, more money must be spent to build and maintain them than ever comes in from the local membership. The business interests of the Church provides profits which can be used all over and at the same time reduces the burden on members. Hurrah for smart investing !

How much profit has the Church made from City Creek Center?  And what is that alleged profit used for?  If not profitable now, what is the forecast for profitability?

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

How much profit has the Church made from City Creek Center?  And what is that alleged profit used for?  If not profitable now, what is the forecast for profitability?

Perhaps you can find someone in the IRS to search it out and leak it to some news organization who will then hold us all spellbound for 30 minutes awaiting a massive reveal.

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

Good Morning Teancum... on a rainy Spring morning here on the central Oregon coast... 

I do understand what you are saying and your point is not lost on me, but SLC is known worldwide as the city founded by the Church... the headquarters for the Church as others have pointed out... the Temple Square area draws thousands (millions?) of visitors to SLC, which benefits the economy generally... I've never been to City Creek Mall but my understanding is that there are several upscale stores that many visitors, and residents, would bypass in favor of the nearby smaller outdoor mall that you mention... i.e., there's room, and need, for both to contribute to the city's health, beauty, and economy.  IMO, when you consider the number of visitors to SLC, including non-members and members alike, where the majority of Church members live, i.e., outside of SLC/Utah, is not that relevant.

My last visit to SLC was a few years go while visiting a friend.  We went to Temple Square and the plaza area... how beautiful!! The flowers were so very beautiful.  The Conference Center...  

GG 

Here's a link to help you get an idea of the expanse/expense that City Creek Mall is, it's very upscale. Not going to lie it is fun to shop there. Of course I'm mainly a window shopper. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=city+creek+mall+advertising&rlz=1CAACAO_enUS714US714&espv=2&tbm=isch&imgil=BnafQ7fkxDbr5M%3A%3Bq4SxgX-_vJ_YJM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmormonism-unveiled.blogspot.com%252F2013%252F07%252Flds-owned-city-creek-center.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=BnafQ7fkxDbr5M%3A%2Cq4SxgX-_vJ_YJM%2C_&usg=__zwpYFivHW102AetXfmg56l3tj24%3D&biw=1366&bih=630&dpr=1&ved=0ahUKEwixyI2zr-HSAhUHzWMKHd4VBbQQyjcIUg&ei=m9jNWPGOAYeajwPeq5SgCw#imgrc=7-tlEzw0sXEGvM:

[Jeanne]

The link Tacenda ..is beautiful..no doubt..but I was lookng for Jesus and couldn't find him anywhere.  Maybe he was in a men's store looking for a sale.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

The link Tacenda ..is beautiful..no doubt..but I was lookng for Jesus and couldn't find him anywhere.  Maybe he was in a men's store looking for a sale.

I guess I shouldn't get down on the church and it's profit side. I see that they do like things to look nice, clear back to Nauvoo days. 

And they may just be the country's saving grace if we should fall. But we are a worldwide church too. And I guess it's temples could provide shelter if it ever came to that and their bank account could provide help for a despairing country. I have always believed that there aren't swindlers in the church, just maybe some wastefulness on occasion as far as video and advertising, but so be it.

I guess we'll see what D. Michael Quinn has to say about it when his book comes out. Not that he's an authority, but would like to see what it says. 

 

[Garden Girl]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Here's a link to help you get an idea of the expanse/expense that City Creek Mall is, it's very upscale. Not going to lie it is fun to shop there. Of course I'm mainly a window shopper. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=city+creek+mall+advertising&rlz=1CAACAO_enUS714US714&espv=2&tbm=isch&imgil=BnafQ7fkxDbr5M%3A%3Bq4SxgX-_vJ_YJM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmormonism-unveiled.blogspot.com%252F2013%252F07%252Flds-owned-city-creek-center.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=BnafQ7fkxDbr5M%3A%2Cq4SxgX-_vJ_YJM%2C_&usg=__zwpYFivHW102AetXfmg56l3tj24%3D&biw=1366&bih=630&dpr=1&ved=0ahUKEwixyI2zr-HSAhUHzWMKHd4VBbQQyjcIUg&ei=m9jNWPGOAYeajwPeq5SgCw#imgrc=7-tlEzw0sXEGvM:

Yes, but according to Teancum there is a smaller open mall nearby, so there is obviously a choice for those who don't feel they can/want to shop at City Center... where I live, we have the outlet style mall which is popular with such stores as Old Navy, the Gap, Eddie Bauer, etc... all selling the same style/quality of merchandise,,, with their particular brand name emblazoned on it... I was so frustrated the other day when I went into Old Navy, I asked the clerk if they possibly had just a plain tee shirt without their ridiculous logo all over it.  They had only one in black, gray or navy... I bought 2 navy tees of mediocre quality but at least they didn't have a logo on them... If I want a choice of something of higher quality or style, I have to drive 65 miles to Salem where they have some boutiques, or a Nordstrom.  

GG

[Garden Girl]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess I shouldn't get down on the church and it's profit side. I see that they do like things to look nice, clear back to Nauvoo days. 

And they may just be the country's saving grace if we should fall. But we are a worldwide church too. And I guess it's temples could provide shelter if it ever came to that and their bank account could provide help for a despairing country. I have always believed that there aren't swindlers in the church, just maybe some wastefulness on occasion as far as video and advertising, but so be it.

I guess we'll see what D. Michael Quinn has to say about it when his book comes out. Not that he's an authority, but would like to see what it says. 

 

Am I mistaken, or isn't Quinn a vocal critic of the Church, and if so, as such I would expect his book to present the Church from his particular critical view... right up your alley...

GG

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

Am I mistaken, or isn't Quinn a vocal critic of the Church, and if so, as such I would expect his book to present the Church from his particular critical view... right up your alley...

GG

Ha! But he is a believing critic.

[Rain]

 

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

1.  No big surprise that the editorial board of the Church owned newspaper (with offices less than 3 blocks away from CCC) agrees with their parent company's decision to build the mall.

2.  Building a mall isn't the only way to help the economy or create jobs.

3. I don't think a similar project is needed in poor countries but it would be great to see the church pour a $1.5b into projects that would benefit the lives of the poor and hungry around the globe.

4. Detroit, Fresno, El Paso, Flint, and Memphis don't even compare to the problems in Mexico, Brazil, and Ghana.

 

I respect those who are willing to call CCC what it is:  The Church's attempt to make money and keep SLC a world-class city.  Continued attempts to ascribe more noble motivations are laughable.

When visiting the sort center on welfare square I found the church needs to be very careful where they pour in money. Early on they just gave a bunch of things to the poorest countries, but found they were having bad effects on the economy. This changed a lot of the way they do things. 

For example, instead of sending in a bunch of new clothes to give to people they take the clothes that are not in the best of conditions from Deseret Industries and sell them inexpensively to the "rag sellers" who then sell them to people who want to wear them. Overall they started to see boosts in local economies when they did this instead of before where they hurt the local economy. 

I'm sure the church can do better with money sometimes, but when I find out things like this I realize that often finances with the church are a lot more complicated than most would imagine. I never would have guessed that giving clothes outright would hurt some places. 

So I don't know Salt Lake was picked over other places.  I can guess, but it would only be a guess because I have not a single fact to back up my guesses.