Onomasticon Wordplays by Matthew J. Bowen

[Darren10]

On a previous thread the idea of finding NHM inscriptions in the Arabian Peninsula is thought to be "not impressive" to one poster here. That thread lead into the idea of "wordplay" found within the Book of Mormon and in the context of it being used to relate the "place which was called Nahom" and NHM. NHM is an ancient Hebrew root word and one thing it does mean is "mourning". NHM discovered in the Arabian Peninsula is "the largest cemetery in the area" and therefore mourning, as one may imagine, would have been common in that place. Therefore, when Nephi, on educated in ancient Hebrew saw his sister-in-laws mourning at Nahom he included that detail within the Book of Mormon narrative and its existence is a very plausible spot to identify as an onomastic wordplay. By that I mean using proper names to relate to connected meanings of events.

Before continuing, a big shout out to calm and Rev. Testament on this board for guiding me through the process of removing format on this forum so that when I cite portions of published works it remains compatible to the software this forum uses. I had previously attempted to cite Mathew (Matt as I know him on facebook) Bowen on the other thread only to have my posts deleted as soon as I clicked on "submit reply".

I choose Bowen here for a few reasons. First, he is highly qualified to look for and present wordplays from ancient Hebrew and Egyptian literature. His academic resume at Mormon Interpreter reads, "Matthew L. Bowen was raised in Orem, Utah and graduated from Brigham Young University. He holds a PhD in Biblical Studies from the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC and is currently an Assistant Professor in Religious Education at Brigham Young University-Hawaii." on facebook this includes Egyptology at the Catholic University. Facebook also shows he is learned in Latin, Spanish, and Hebrew.

Second, I choose Bowen because I am very interested in linguistics. I am hardly an expert but I enjoy reading into it and I have thoroughly enjoyed Bowens essays which identifies wordplays in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. 

Third, from my interaction with him on facebook he seems to be a very decent and pleasant person to associate with. He's a scholar and excellent family man (married with children).

I will preset three essays from Bowen which identify wordplay situations in the Book of Mormon which reiterate specific doctrine with proper names used. They represent solid research and follow sound scholastic standards.

in his essay, “O Ye Fair Ones” — Revisited,  Bowen demonstrate how Nephi and Mormon use the meaning of Nephi to describe his people the Nephites.

Quote

It has now been over two decades since John Gee first proposed that the name Nephi derives from the Egyptian lexeme nfr,1 the final weak [Page 316]–r of which had come to be pronounced as –i by Lehi’s time. Since nfr indisputably means “good, fine, goodly” (of quality),2 “good, fair” (of character)3 and “beautiful, fair” (of appearance)4 or “kind” as an adjective, and “beauty,” “good,” “kindness” and “goodness” as a noun,5 I posited more than a decade ago6 that Nephi created a deliberate wordplay on his own name in his autobiographical introduction:

Quote

I, NEPHI, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days. (1 Nephi 1:1)

 

Nephi's identity as being "good" and 'fair" extended to his people the Nephites. Before their divine destruction Mormon, as Bowen outlines, laments:

Quote

Since the meaning of Nephi’s name as nfr — especially in the senses of “good, fair” (of character) and “beautiful, fair” (of appearance)10 — has implications for the derived gentilic term “Nephites,” I further suggested in a previous study11 that Mormon’s lament in Mormon 6 with its plaintive refrain “O ye fair ones” constitutes a wordplay on (or a play on the meaning of) the name Nephi and its gentilic derivative “Nephites”:

Quote

 

O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!

Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.

O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen! (Mormon 6:17–19)

 

 

 "O ye fair ones", and "O ye fair sons and daughters..." are definite references from Mormon to the Nephi people. Nephi, being likely derived from the Egyptian nfr, according to Bowen, "indisputably" means good, fair, beautiful, kindness, goodness, etc, to find those characteristics used to describe the Nephites is of no coincidence. Nephi, learned "in the language of the Egyptians", would make that word connection to describe his people who were "favored of the Lord". apparently this was carried throughout their common history as Mormon even used that wordplay to lament their spiritual downfall.

Father Is a Man: The Remarkable Mention of the Name Abish in Alma 19:16 and Its Narrative Context is another essay Bowen wrote which demonstrates an onomastic wordplay by the Book of Mormon presenting ot its readers with the rare moment of mentioning a female by name. As Bowen writes:

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Abstract: The mention of “Abish” and a “remarkable vision of her father” (Alma 19:16) is itself remarkable, since women and servants are rarely named in the Book of Mormon text.

Bowen points to the use of the Hebrew ab as "father":

Quote

Many Israelite names have the word ʼab- (“Father”) as a theophoric6 element. Israelites not only understood but apparently relished the double entendre-potential in these names — that the “father” element could be understood as not only referring to a deity but also the birth father of the name-bearer. The literary treatment of the name “Abimelech” in Judges 6–9 illustrates this phenomenon. The first part of the pericope (Judges 6–8 ) chronicles Gideon’s “salvation” of Israel including his defeat of the Midianites and their kings (8:21). In response to this great victory, Israel requests that Gideon and his “sons” rule dynastically over them, i.e., as kings: “Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian. And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the Lord shall rule over you” (Judges 8:22–23).

However, Gideon immediately proceeds to act like a king,7 multiplying gold (Judg 8:24–26) and wives (8:30) in violation of Deuteronomy [Page 80]17:17. From the captured Midianite gold, he fashions an idolatrous “ephod” and exerts royal authority over the cult at Ophrah. Moreover, Gideon sires a “son” whom he names “My Father is King,” i.e., Abimelech (ʼăbî, “my father” + melek, “king”). One can interpret this name to mean the “My Father [Yahweh] is king” (see especially Judges 8:23: “the Lord [Yahweh] shall rule over you”) or “My Father [Gideon/ Jerubbaal] is King.” The second part of the pericope (Judges 9) infers that Abimelech interprets his own names as the latter and uses this interpretation as a basis for his attempts to make himself king over Israel (see especially Judges 9:2–3, 8–22).

With Abish we read the following:

Quote

The name “Abish” as a Hebrew name16 suggests the meaning “Father is a man” or “My father is a man” (ʼab[î] “[my] father” + ʼîš “a man”),17 or at least an ancient Israelite would have heard these midrashic [Page 82]components18 in this name. “Abish” would have suggested a similar meaning to the Nephite ear,19 and perhaps it would have held this meaning for Lamanites who had learned the language of Nephi via the priests of Noah (Mosiah 24:4). Although only attested once as a Lehite personal name,20 the name “Abish” contributes to the “literary texture”21 of the story precisely because the elements “father” and “man” can be heard in the name. Precise scientific etymology was not, in any case, a primary concern of ancient authors in their literary inclusion and exploitation of names.22

[Page 83]We note the mention of Abish’s name and her introduction into the Lamanite conversion narrative:

Quote

And it came to pass that they did call on the name of the Lord, in their might, even until they had all fallen to the earth, save it were one of the Lamanitish women [cf. Heb. *nāšîm], whose name was Abish [*ʼab(îʼ)îš], she having been converted unto the Lord for many years, on account a remarkable vision of her father [cf. ʼ ăbîhâ] — (Alma 19:16)

The wordplay on the ʼab– (“father”) element is readily recognizable. As Michael O’Connor notes, onomastic wordplay can be “incomplete, as puns, casual rhymes, and verbal echoes often are, in all literary texts of all types and times.”23 However, the ʼîš (“man”)-element, too, is present, albeit “tacitly”24 in the term “women” (cf. Heb. nāšîm). The singular form of Hebrew nāšîm is ʼiššâ, the masculine counterparts of which are ʼîš and the poetic form ʼĕnôš (both of which share the Hebrew plural ʼănāšîm). In other words, the proposed elements of “Abish” are juxtaposed with the name “Abish” in the text.

During the conversion of King Lamoni we read, "12 And it came to pass that he arose, according to the words of Ammon; and as he arose, he stretched forth his hand unto the woman, and said: Blessed be the name of God, and blessed art thou.13 For as sure as thou livest, behold, I have seen my Redeemer; and he shall come forth, and be born of a woman, and he shall redeem all mankind who believe on his name. Now, when he had said these words, his heart was swollen within him, and he sunk again with joy; and the queen also sunk down, being overpowered by the Spirit." (Alma 19).

"God" to the Nephites at the time Abish came onto the scene was known as the Father of Heaven and earth. (Alma 18:5; I Nephi 11:21 original manuscript reads, "& the angel said unto me behold the lam of god yea even the eternal father knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw"). This is God to be "born of a woman" according to King Lamoni. Abish meaning "father is a man" fits perfectly into the content of the conversion of King Lamoni and his house. Therefore, Abish is specifically mentioned in Alma 19 despite a female servant almost never being mentioned in any ancient scripture.

The third and final essay I'll present here is called Place of Crushing: The Literary Function of Heshlon in Ether 13:25-31.

Quote

John Tvedtnes, who has suggested that the – ôn suffix in these names denotes “place of X,”20 suggests that “Heshlon” is formed from the Hebrew verb *ḥāšal as attested in Deuteronomy 25:18,21 where it is stated that the Amalekites attacked “the crushed” or “the feeble” (kjv), i.e., “the stragglers” (hanneḥĕšālîm),22 at the rear of Israel’s hosts. Here *ḥāšal is used is in a military context.

In addition to the attestation of *ḥāšal in Deuteronomy, the Aramaic cognate ḥāšēl is attested in Daniel 2:40: “And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth [wĕḥāšēl] all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.” The kjv translates ḥāšēl as “subdue,” but its use as a synonym of *dqq (“break in pieces” or “crush in small pieces”23) indicates that a better translation would be “and crushes.”24 The context here is also a military one.

Bowen later points out that it was at the place called Heshlon which the Jaredites destroyed ("crushed, subdued, broke into pieces") each other through civil war that their society never did fully recuperate.

Quote

By the time Ether came to Coriantumr and uttered his prophetic ultimatum (i.e., repent and be spared or otherwise be destroyed, Ether 13:20–21), Coriantumr and his sons had already “fought much and bled much” (13:19). Immediately thereafter, the name “Heshlon” (a hapax legomenon)38 occurs within the greatest concentration of the word beat, i.e. “defeat” in a military sense, anywhere in the scriptures.

The word beat (i.e., “attack and destroy,” cf. Heb. nākâ in the causative stem)39 occurs as a military term twenty times in the Book of Mormon, [Page 234]first in Mosiah 21:8.40 Mormon uses beat as a military technical term nine times (eight times in his personal record, Mormon 1–8, and once in Mosiah 21:8); Moroni uses beat eight times in Ether compared to only one by other Book of Mormon writers — Helaman1 once (Alma 57:22). Tellingly, Mormon and Moroni together account for nineteen out of twenty uses of beat as a military technical term. This is unsurprising considering the relentless “beatings” — military victories and defeats — that they witnessed, these culminating in the final crushing and “extinction”41 of their people.

Robert F. Smith in the previous NHM thread simply explained that scholars look into wordplay when events "occur in proximity to a possible occasion for wordplay". All three essays and the several others Bowen wrote at Mormon Interpreter, the Hebrew and/or Egyptian meaning of a proper name is approximately close to an event related to that etymological meaning. These are wordplays. Very easy to identify and very easily supported as wordplays within the Book of Mormon text.

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Darren10

[MormonVideoGame]

At this moment I don't have time to read and analyze all that, for now I am just going to quote Robert Smith

"Only on a few occasions will one find wordplay. It doesn't simply appear everywhere" - Robert Smith 

Which means the probability that Nephi is doing Hebrew word play in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35 is very low, especially because "mourn" appears 41 times in the Book of Mormon. No lottery luck required. 

Also, according to LDS scholar Stephen D. Ricks "Book of Mormon Nahom could have an etymological connection “to mourn, to groan,” but the place-name Nehem of the Arabian Peninsula might have had a different etymology."

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Darren10]

51 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

At this moment I don't have time to read and analyze all that, for now I am just going to quote Robert Smith

"Only on a few occasions will one find wordplay. It doesn't simply appear everywhere" - Robert Smith 

Which means the probability that Nephi is doing Hebrew word play in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35 is very low, especially because "mourn" appears 41 times in the Book of Mormon. No lottery luck required. 

Also, according to LDS scholar Stephen D. Ricks "Book of Mormon Nahom could have an etymological connection “to mourn, to groan,” but the place-name Nehem of the Arabian Peninsula might have had a different etymology."

 

It's all good. My main point here is to show places where wordplays could definitely be identified and are in the Book of Mormon.

Regardless of what Nehem means it is still, even assuming it was "Nehem" in Nephi's time, very plausible that since it would have been spelled NHM and NHM is also related to "mourning", that Nephi included the act of "mourning" from his extended family members into the Book of Mormon narrative.

[Darren10]

Oops, it's Mathew L. Bowen.

[MormonVideoGame]

4 hours ago, Darren10 said:

It's all good. My main point here is to show places where wordplays could definitely be identified and are in the Book of Mormon.

but it can't "definitely be identified" in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35, you agree?  Like I said it is possible, but coincidence and agenticity are also possible. With Occam's razor we don't need to believe Nahom is connected to NHM unless you present evidence.  Do you have any evidence? or just speculation? because you and Robert Smith are mostly doing speculation. I understand Hebrew wordplay may be a real thing, but you need to demonstrate that Nephi was doing Hebrew wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35. 

Read "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Taleb or "The Drunkard's Walk" by Leonard Mlodinow  or "The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events" by David Hand 

Or simply read the Bible Code 

 

"Many examples have been documented in the past. One cited example is that by taking every 50th letter of the Book of Genesis starting with the first taw, the Hebrew word "torah" is spelled out. The same happens in the Book of Exodus"   Miracle or Coincidence? What do you think? 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Darren10]

10 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Could. Like I said I agree it's possible. However, coincidence and agenticity are also possible. With Occam's razor we don't need to believe Nahom is connected to NHM unless you present evidence.  Do you have any evidence? or just speculation? because you and Robert Smith are mostly doing speculation. I understand Hebrew wordplay may be a real thing, but you need to demonstrate that Nephi was doing Hebrew wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35. 

Read "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Taleb or "The Drunkard's Walk" by Leonard Mlodinow  or "The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events" by David Hand 

Or simply read the Bible Code 

 

"Many examples have been documented in the past. One cited example is that by taking every 50th letter of the Book of Genesis starting with the first taw, the Hebrew word "torah" is spelled out. The same happens in the Book of Exodus"   Miracle or Coincidence? What do you think? 

 

 

That is very interesting.

[MormonVideoGame]

4 hours ago, Darren10 said:

is to show places where wordplays could definitely be identified and are in the Book of Mormon.

I changed my previous comment: "but it can't "definitely be identified" in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35, you agree?" 

Edited February 24, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I changed my previous comment: "but it can't "definitely be identified" in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35, you agree?" 

Definitely identifying mourning with "Nahom" has nit been done but thst is not what anyone claims, at least not reponsible LDS scholars. They simply say that NHM relates to mourning and thus Nephi included mourning at Nahom. If a large cemetary in the Arabian Peninsula were to be discovered and that place's name was Nehrm, thst eould be a very good, if not strong, linguistic connection. 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/24/2017 at 11:09 AM, MormonVideoGame said:

...........................................

"Only on a few occasions will one find wordplay. It doesn't simply appear everywhere" - Robert Smith 

Which means the probability that Nephi is doing Hebrew word play in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35 is very low,

False.  The probability that Nephi is doing wordplay at 1 Nephi 16:34-35 is very high, both because the toponym Nahom is in close proximity to the word "mourn," and because the meaning of the Hebrew word carries that meaning.

On 2/24/2017 at 11:09 AM, MormonVideoGame said:

especially because "mourn" appears 41 times in the Book of Mormon. No lottery luck required. 

False.  The other occurrences are too far off to be relevant.  You need a course in statistics, good buddy.

On 2/24/2017 at 11:09 AM, MormonVideoGame said:

Also, according to LDS scholar Stephen D. Ricks "Book of Mormon Nahom could have an etymological connection “to mourn, to groan,” but the place-name Nehem of the Arabian Peninsula might have had a different etymology."

I have already answered that objection several times for you:  We do not need to know the meaning the word had for ancient South Arabs.  We need only understand what Nephi heard in that word as a Hebrew speaker.  That's how punning works.

[Robert F. Smith]

We have discussed punning and wordplay several times over the years on this board.  Here are some examples:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56452-pahoran/ 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63590-mormons-cry-after-the-nephite-lamanite-battle/#comment-1209383604 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64605-mormon-interpreters-“most-desirable-above-all-things”-onomastic-play-on-mary-and-mormon-in-the-book-of-mormon-by-mathew-l-bowen/#comment-1209442808 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68093-son-of-man-meaning-as-used-by-jesus/?page=3#comment-1209662626 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68344-ammon-as-an-intertextual-type-of-christ/#comment-1209676621 

 

[MormonVideoGame]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False.  The probability that Nephi is doing wordplay at 1 Nephi 16:34-35 is very high, both because the toponym Nahom is in close proximity to the word "mourn," and because the meaning of the Hebrew word carries that meaning.

the close proximity to the word "mourn" is irrelevant, unless you demonstrate that Nephi was doing wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35. You are doing things backwards, you need to demonstrate word-play in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35 first, not the other way around. After that then we can talk about the meaning of that Hebrew word. 

You need to make the dots before drawing the lines, not the other way around. 

I am still waiting for the dating of those NHM inscriptions.  

Bytheway, I don't know if it is true, but according to some critics it should be "Nachom". 

Edited February 25, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

.

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

18 hours ago, Darren10 said:

. They simply say that NHM relates to mourning 

"Nohemi Gonzalez's stepfather and mother, mourn at her vigil Sunday at Cal State Long Beach"

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-cal-state-student-paris-shootings-20151114-story.html

Hebrew word-play? 

"Only on a few occasions will one find wordplay. It doesn't simply appear everywhere" - Robert Smith

Edited February 25, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

the close proximity to the word "mourn" is irrelevant, unless you demonstrate that Nephi was doing wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35. You are doing things backwards, you need to demonstrate word-play in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35 first, not the other way around. After that then we can talk about the meaning of that Hebrew word. 

You need to make the dots before drawing the lines, not the other way around. 

I am still waiting for the dating of those NHM inscriptions.  

Bytheway, I don't know if it is true, but according to some critics it should be "Nachom". 

I can see that you are a cart-before-the-horse kind of guy.  You badly need to consult with some non-Mormon literary analysts on what punning and wordplay are.  You clearly don't get it yet.

[Darren10]

18 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

"Nohemi Gonzalez's stepfather and mother, mourn at her vigil Sunday at Cal State Long Beach"

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-cal-state-student-paris-shootings-20151114-story.html

Hebrew word-play? 

"Only on a few occasions will one find wordplay. It doesn't simply appear everywhere" - Robert Smith

But *it's possible* that Nephi did because that's what ancient Hebrew prophets did with regular frequency. 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/25/2017 at 1:28 PM, MormonVideoGame said:

"Nohemi Gonzalez's stepfather and mother, mourn at her vigil Sunday at Cal State Long Beach"

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-cal-state-student-paris-shootings-20151114-story.html

Hebrew word-play? 

"Only on a few occasions will one find wordplay. It doesn't simply appear everywhere" - Robert Smith

This would only be interesting in a context where a translation from a document written by speaker of Classical Hebrew, which is not the case here.  You seem to continue to miss the point, guy.  Here is a biblical example, about which we sang a hymn at church today:

Quote

The name “Ebenezer” actually comes from the Bible. In 1 Samuel 7, during the end of the time of the judges, Israel experiences revival under the leadership of Samuel. The nation repents of their sin, destroys their idols, and begins to seek the Lord (1 Samuel 7:2–4). Samuel gathered the people at Mizpah where they confessed their sin, and Samuel offered a sacrifice on their behalf (verses 5–9).

It was during this time of repentance and renewal that the enemy attacked: “While Samuel was sacrificing the burnt offering, the Philistines drew near to engage Israel in battle” (1 Samuel 7:10). The Israelites went out to do battle against the invaders, and God sent them supernatural help: “That day the LORD thundered with loud thunder against the Philistines and threw them into such a panic that they were routed before the Israelites” (verse 10).

Israel’s victory over the Philistines was decisive. Several cities the Philistines had captured were restored to Israel, and it was a long time before the Philistines tried to invade Israel again (1 Samuel 7:13–14). To commemorate the divine victory, “Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Shen. He named it Ebenezer, saying, ‘Thus far the LORD has helped us’” (verse 12).

Ebenezer means “stone of help.” From then on, every time an Israelite saw the stone erected by Samuel, he would have a tangible reminder of the Lord’s power and protection. The “stone of help” marked the spot where the enemy had been routed and God’s promise to bless His repentant people had been honored. The Lord had helped them, all the way to Ebenezer.  https://www.gotquestions.org/Ebenezer.html .

People do puns and wordplay in English too, but the context has to be right to fit the language.

Get it?  The play is on elope and cantaloupe.

Here's another one, from http://www.alphadictionary.com/fun/pun.html ,

Quote

A panda walks into a restaurant and orders a sandwich. When he receives the check, he pulls out a gun, fires it several times, then walks out the door. A stunned patron then asks the waiter, "What was that all about?" The waiter responded, "That's just the way pandas are," and walked away. Well, the patron didn't know what a panda was, so at home that night he looks up "panda" in the dictionary and what he finds explained everything: "Panda: A large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China; eats shoots and leaves." [Two punning words.]

Get it?  Eats bamboo shoots and bamboo leaves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKFaujY6DeM

 

[MormonVideoGame]

9 hours ago, Darren10 said:

But *it's possible* that Nephi did because that's what ancient Hebrew prophets did with regular frequency. 

 NHM in Hebrew is Nacham נָחַם which means "to be sorry, to console oneself". It seems the word needs "ch" to mean "to be sorry, to console oneself". http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5162.htm.  

47 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This would only be interesting in a context where a translation from a document written by speaker of Classical Hebrew, which is not the case here.  

I agree it is possible, I don't dispute that. All am saying is that coincidence is another possibility... a reasonable one.

I didn't find Hebrew scholars (LDS or non-LDS) that say Nephi was doing wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35, And I am still waiting for evidence that the NHM altars date to at least 600 BC.  

Edited February 27, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 NHM in Hebrew is Nacham נָחַם which means "to be sorry, to console oneself". It seems the word needs "ch" to mean "to be sorry, to console oneself". http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5162.htm.  

I agree it is possible, I don't dispute that. All am saying is that coincidence is another possibility... a reasonable one.

I didn't find Hebrew scholars (LDS or non-LDS) that say Nephi was doing wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35,

Well, since no one is a scholar in your book, it might be pretty hard to find anyone talking about wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34-35.  So that you will always consider the following to be "fake news":

https://books.google.com/books?id=fNU2AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=nhm+wordplay&source=bl&ots=kPdLICrQph&sig=Ot7KCq621kW1BpzHztVPGw8UaGI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj29dXRq6_SAhWrjlQKHW3IB4AQ6AEIMTAF#v=onepage&q=nhm wordplay&f=false (Interpreter 8 [2014]:178)

https://books.google.com/books?id=J9CGDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=nhm+wordplay&source=bl&ots=sitGpP_Opz&sig=ENmeu9RjHtjMXkD-upYF8Xffz78&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj29dXRq6_SAhWrjlQKHW3IB4AQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=nhm wordplay&f=false (Interpreter, 19 [2016]:192-193)

Stephen D. Ricks, "On Lehi's Trail: Nahom, Ishmael's Burial Place," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, 20/1 (2011):66-68, online at http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1475&context=jbms .

I laid out the full linguistic argument applying biblical Hebrew at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68649-south-arabian-inscriptions/ , but you choose to use the http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5162.htm site for yokels as your reason for rejecting good scholarship.

3 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

And I am still waiting for evidence that the NHM altars date to at least 600 BC.  

I gave you the sources for the non-Mormon dating of the site and altars.  If you consider those scholars liars, please say so.

[MormonVideoGame]

55 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, since no one is a scholar in your book, it might be pretty hard to find anyone talking about wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34-35.  So that you will always consider the following to be "fake news":

No, but I have to be extra careful with free online Journals that are not recognized by the scholarly community. Neal Rappleye, Stephen Smoot, and Jeff Lindsay are not Hebrew scholars.  Stephen D. Ricks wrote "could have", and I agree with that. Bytheway, how many scholarly articles has Stephen D. Ricks written for a respected Journal? 

55 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I gave you the sources for the non-Mormon dating of the site and altars.  If you consider those scholars liars, please say so.

You wrote 

Quote

the numbers are given in centuries, in item 1, "aus dem 7. und 8. Jh. v. Chr.," meaning "from the 7th and 8th centuries B.C." Not the same thing, but still pre-Lehi. For those who want to look at the article online, go to http://digital.library.stonybrook.edu/cdm/ref/collection/amar/id/94855 .

that doesn't tell me anything. 

55 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I laid out the full linguistic argument applying biblical Hebrew at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68649-south-arabian-inscriptions/ , but you choose to use the http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5162.htm site for yokels as your reason for rejecting good scholarship.

When did you present evidence that Nephi was using wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35? Yes I agree it's possible, but  coincidence (and patternicity)  can explain it just as well, if not better because no one has demonstrated that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient text.  If you have good evidence please present it to the scholarly community for review.  

Edited February 27, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Benjamin Seeker]

I hate to interrupt the lovely exchange, but shouldn't we consider the possibility that the word play is intended and that it doesn't neccessarily neccessitate an ancient source. 

There seems to be a pattern in the BOM where proper names can be seen as punning. We've got:

• Nephi
• Abish
• Nahom
• I know Matt Bowen also wrote an article on the name Joseph. 
• I'll add to that Laman. Lmn can be interpreted as port or inlet in Aramaic, which puns nicely with Lehi's suggestion that Laman be like that river always flowing into the Red Sea.
• I'll also add Ammon, which puns nicely with Ammon's twice repeated "I am a man." Actually Ammon and Abish work really well together. Abish means "father is a man," which fits nicely with Ammon's "I am a man." Matt Bowen points out how Abish is Ammon's female counterpart in the narrative, but he doesn't acknowledge the equally clear and almost comical english wordplay.

My guess is there are more, but this is enough to suggest a pattern of wordplay. The presence of just one English wordplay obviously suggests the possibility of modern origin for all of them.

[MormonVideoGame]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

• I'll add to that Laman. Lmn can be interpreted as port or inlet in Aramaic

In Aramaic? 

 

[MormonVideoGame]

I have a question: Had Ishmael died in Bountiful, does that mean Nephi wouldn't have mention "daughters of Ishmael did mourn exceedingly"? 

[Darren10]

13 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 NHM in Hebrew is Nacham נָחַם which means "to be sorry, to console oneself". It seems the word needs "ch" to mean "to be sorry, to console oneself". http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5162.htm.  

I agree it is possible, I don't dispute that. All am saying is that coincidence is another possibility... a reasonable one.

I didn't find Hebrew scholars (LDS or non-LDS) that say Nephi was doing wordplay in 1 Nephi 16:34 - 35, And I am still waiting for evidence that the NHM altars date to at least 600 BC.  

And there is this:

Quote

The Hebrew root for "grieve, " nhm [;j"n], communicates a mixture of divine indignation against sin and a heartfelt anguish concerning the plight of his creation. Thus, in grief, God responds in judgment against sin, yet bestows saving grace and mercy on Noah and his family ( Gen 6:7-8 ).

(snip)

Isaiah's messianic prophecy describes God's Anointed as a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief ( Isa 53:3 ). Jesus wept at the death of Lazarus, pleaded with Jerusalem, and agonized in the garden ( John 11:33 ; Matt 23:37-39 ; Luke 13:34-35 ; Matt 26:38 ; Mark 14:34 ; Luke 22:44 ).

All related to NHM.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/grief-grieving.html

 

[Benjamin Seeker]

9 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

In Aramaic? 

 

One of the first aspects of the BOM that first got me questioning its historicity was its intertextuality with the NT. At one point I noticed that verse where Ammon is called Rabbanah, which verse IS a possible allusion to the passage towards the end of John where Mary calls Jesus Raboni. I was extra bugged by this because I knew that Raboni was Aramaic, and I thought it was ridiculous for a very similar word to be appearing in the BOM, considering Aramaic didn't become the common spoken language in Israel until after Lehi's departure. In learning more about the term Raboni, I learned that Aramaic was actually a pretty old language, that Rabbanah was a legit version of Raboni, and it was possible that a group leaving the middle east in 600 BC had knowledge of Aramaic. Excited at this possibility, I began looking up other BOM words in hopes of finding a pattern of evidence in support of ancient Aramaic in the BOM, or something along those lines. While I didn't find that, I did come across the the possible lmn/Laman pun. 

A year or so down the line I discovered that the inclusion of Rabbanah is possibly a result of masonic influence on the Book of Mormon, specifically Royal Arch Masonry. This isn't far fetched, considering how the Enochian legend of Royal Arch Masonry appears to have heavily influenced the BOM and the account of it's discovery. Also, a cipher common to Royal Arch Masonry likely influenced the characters in the document called the Anthon transcript (recently discovered to almost certainly not be the anthon transcript but something likely associated with JS early revelatory efforts), for characters in the GAEL, and for characters in a letter by Phelps dating to the early 1830s. In Royal Arch Masonry, Raboni is one of the passwords of the 7th degree, where it is said to signify "Good Master," which could be seen as related to the meaning of Rabbanah given in Alma 18:13, which is "great king." Rabbanaim, another derivative of Raboni, is a term used in the higher degrees of masonry and possibly used as a password in degrees beyond the Royal Arch Degrees (Its definitely a term used in the higher degrees (see Mackey's famous encyclopedia of masonry), but I only have one questionable source to it's exact location and use). 

In short, the above is one possible explanation for how knowledge of an Aramaic term, Rabbanah, could be had by a 19th century farm boy, and is particulary relevant to JS who was involved with the esoteric and has been shown in various other related circumstances to have been influenced by Masonry. If one example of legit ancient language in the BOM can be explained this way, then it's very possible all have the other examples (if really legit), have more ordinary, though still pretty interesting, explanations.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[Darren10]

7 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I have a question: Had Ishmael died in Bountiful, does that mean Nephi wouldn't have mention "daughters of Ishmael did mourn exceedingly"? 

That's very likely. No explicit mention of mourning when Nephite kings died.

Quote

 5 And king Benjamin lived three years and he died.

 

(Mosiah 6)

That's it for King Benjamin and he appeared to have been greatly beloved among the people. Even Nephi, who was loved by the people, it says this:

Quote

9 Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the kings.

 10 The people having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a great protector for them, having wielded the sword of Laban in their defence, and having labored in all his days for their welfare—

 11 Wherefore, the people were desirous to retain in remembrance his name. And whoso should reign in his stead were called by the people, second Nephi, third Nephi, and so forth, according to the reigns of the kings; and thus they were called by the people, let them be of whatever name they would.

 12 And it came to pass that Nephi died.

(Jacob 1)

That's it.