Mormon's Cry After The Nephite-Lamanite Battle

[theplains]

Several questions come to mind when I examine the words of Mormon in 6:16-22.

 

"And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair 

ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive 

you! Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are 

fallen, and I mourn your loss. O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, 

ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen! But behold, 

ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return. And the day soon cometh that 

your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in 

corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the 

judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that 

ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, 

ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; 

and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy".

 

He makes several references to them as 'fair'.  How are they considered the 'fair

ones' when they had departed from the ways of the Lord and had rejected Him?

 

Why does he say 'if it so be that ye are righteous' when he already established the

fact that they were destroyed for their rejection of Jesus?  He even views them as

wicked in verse 7.

 

Why would this justifiably-slain people be considered blessed with their fathers who 

had gone before them?

 

Why does he say "O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon 

you"?  How does he know that they did not repent?  Did their destruction mean none

of them repented?  Would they have lived (like the 24) had they repented?

 

Do you believe the Hill Cumorah (the place of that battle) is in New York state like the

April 1928 General Conference teaches?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Duncan]

"we all have our free agency. God doesn’t rob anyone of that. And sometimes even a General Authority has used his agency in a wrong direction…Now, a General Authority might speculate, I suppose. We have had speculation, for instance, on the part of some with respect to Book of Mormon geography, and it is plain, unadulterated speculation and not doctrine. And if a General Authority has speculated on Book of Mormon geography he did not represent the view of the Church while doing so."

Elder Mark E. Petersen,  “Revelation,” address to religious educators, 24 August 1954 

Edited May 29, 2014 by Duncan

[ksfisher]

Several questions come to mind when I examine the words of Mormon in 6:16-22.

 

"And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair 

ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive 

you! Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are 

fallen, and I mourn your loss. O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, 

ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen! But behold, 

ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return. And the day soon cometh that 

your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in 

corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the 

judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that 

ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, 

ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; 

and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy".

 

He makes several references to them as 'fair'.  How are they considered the 'fair

ones' when they had departed from the ways of the Lord and had rejected Him?

 

Why does he say 'if it so be that ye are righteous' when he already established the

fact that they were destroyed for their rejection of Jesus?  He even views them as

wicked in verse 7.

 

Why would this justifiably-slain people be considered blessed with their fathers who 

had gone before them?

 

Why does he say "O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon 

you"?  How does he know that they did not repent?  Did their destruction mean none

of them repented?  Would they have lived (like the 24) had they repented?

 

Do you believe the Hill Cumorah (the place of that battle) is in New York state like the

April 1928 General Conference teaches?

 

Thanks,

Jim

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/insights/23/6/S00001-O_Ye_Fair_Ones_An_Additional_Note_on_the_Meaning_of_the_Name.html

"O Ye Fair Ones": An Additional Note on the Meaning of the Name Nephi

An earlier Insights article noted a possible wordplay1 in the first verse of the Book of Mormon that provides internal textual evidence that the name Nephi derives from the Egyptian word nfr.2 While nfr denotes "good, fine, goodly"3 of quality, it also signifies "beautiful, fair"4 of appearance. Assuming that at least some senses of the Egyptian word passed into Nephite language and culture, this second sense of nfr may have influenced Nephite self-perception. Several Book of Mormon passages evidence the affiliation.

If the name Nephi can be translated "good, goodly, beautiful, fair," then the term Nephites might be substantively rendered "goodly ones" or "fair ones." Interestingly, Mormon, when lamenting the vast scene of slaughtered Nephites following the battles at Cumorah, addressed them as such:

O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord!

O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood

with open arms to receive you! Behold, if ye had not done this,

ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.

O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones,

how is it that ye could have fallen! (Mormon 6:17—19)5

Mormon uses the expression O ye fair ones in anaphora (i.e., a literary device in which a word or phrase is repeated at the beginning of consecutive clauses),6 and the word fair occurs four times in his lament, his rhetoric clearly suggesting that the quality of being "fair" once distinguished the Nephites from every other people.

Another passage demonstrates an etymological connection between Nephites and "fair ones." Following the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning Christ's birth, Mormon records that the Lamanites, apart from those who were Gadianton robbers, underwent a change in appearance, effectively becoming Nephites:

And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair,

and they were numbered among the Nephites,

and they were called Nephites. (3 Nephi 2:16)

Here a wordplay on fair and Nephites occurs in epistrophe (i.e., repetition of a word or phrase at the end of successive clauses). The parallelism of the phrasing further suggests the approximation of Nephites to "fair ones."

The language of a third passage suggests the same connection. Mormon reports that following Christ's appearance, the people of Nephi (Nephites and Lamanites together) had all become a "fair and delightsome people":

And now, behold, it came to pass that the people of Nephi did wax strong,

and did multiply exceedingly fast,

and became an exceedingly fair and delightsome people. (4 Nephi 1:10)

The phrase fair and delightsome stands in stark contrast to descriptions such as "filthy" and "loathsome," as the Lamanites are often described during periods of degeneracy and unbelief (compare 1 Nephi 12:23; 2 Nephi 5:22; Mormon 5:15). It must be noted that Book of Mormon prophets invariably taught that being "fair and delightsome" has everything to do with righteous living and very little to do with perceived cultural or racial superiority (see 1 Nephi 1:17:33-40; Jacob 3; Helaman 15).

By Matthew L. Bowen

1. "I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents." This subject is treated at length in Matthew L. Bowen, "Internal Textual Evidence for the Egyptian Origin of Nephi's Name," Insights 22/11 (2002): 2.

2. See John Gee, "A Note on the Name Nephi," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 1/1 (1992): 189—91. It is possible that the connection consists of folk etymology rather than cognates.

[The Nehor]

I think there was general wickedness but Mormon was not well-acquainted with every one of the slain. There may have been some who were righteous left amongst the fallen. Mormon gave a sermon quoted by his son Moroni recorded in Moroni 7:

 

"Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven."

 

Maybe some of them fell in that battle?

Edited May 29, 2014 by The Nehor

[strappinglad]

" the rain falls on the just and the unjust "

So does WAR. The image of the little burned Vietnamese girl fleeing the napalm jumps to mind.

[teddyaware]

Several questions come to mind when I examine the words of Mormon in 6:16-22.

 

"And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair 

ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive 

you! Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are 

fallen, and I mourn your loss. O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, 

ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen! But behold, 

ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return. And the day soon cometh that 

your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in 

corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the 

judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that 

ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, 

ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; 

and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy".

 

He makes several references to them as 'fair'.  How are they considered the 'fair

ones' when they had departed from the ways of the Lord and had rejected Him?

 

Why does he say 'if it so be that ye are righteous' when he already established the

fact that they were destroyed for their rejection of Jesus?  He even views them as

wicked in verse 7.

 

Why would this justifiably-slain people be considered blessed with their fathers who 

had gone before them?

 

Why does he say "O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon 

you"?  How does he know that they did not repent?  Did their destruction mean none

of them repented?  Would they have lived (like the 24) had they repented?

 

Do you believe the Hill Cumorah (the place of that battle) is in New York state like the

April 1928 General Conference teaches?

 

Thanks,

Jim

1 Prior to their final fall into a state of fully ripened iniquity, generally speaking the Nephites were a blessed people who enjoyed the golden age of blessedness and righteousness spoken of in 4 Nephi. Speaking collectively to the Nephites who had once been so blessed of the Lord, Mormon bitterly laments that in the end that once-glorious nation had fallen into a state of total spiritual degradation that brought the mighty judgments down upon their heads.

2 Mormon was aware of the fact that the Gospel is preached to the dead, so he was speaking of the hope that the judgments of God might awaken some of those fallen Nephites to repentance and forgiveness in the spirit world.

3. Mormon knew the destruction of the Nephites wasn't necessarily a consignment into a permanent hell, for he knew that the God of Mercy would send missionaries to them while in the spirit prison and that repentance and redemption through Christ was still possible.

4. Mormon wished that the Nephites had repented prior to their utter destruction because he knew they would have to suffer for a time in hell before missionaries would be sent to them to offer a new hope of salvation through repentance. In addition, Mormon testifies these people had forfeited their chances for repentance while in the flesh, therefore they had to die...

11 Thus there began to be a mourning and a lamentation in all the land because of these things, and more especially among the people of Nephi.

12 And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering ofthe Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people.

13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin.

14 And they did not come unto Jesus with broken hearts and contrite spirits, but they did curse God, and wish to die. Nevertheless they would struggle with the sword for their lives.

15 And it came to pass that my sorrow did return unto me again, and I saw that the day of grace was passed with them, both temporally and spiritually; for I saw thousands of them hewn down in open rebellionagainst their God, and heaped up as dung upon the face of the land. And thus three hundred and forty and four years had passed away. (Mormon 2)

Edited May 29, 2014 by teddyaware

[BCSpace]

He makes several references to them as 'fair'.  How are they considered the 'fair

ones' when they had departed from the ways of the Lord and had rejected Him?

 

 

I think it's more like say, the case of Danielle Maudsley.  Here is a girl who fell into bad company and drugs and ultimately to a significant degree brought her own death upon herself (no, I do not agree she needed tazing) by getting into this situation.  Yet can anyone watch this video and not weep for the sweet innocent girl she must have once been and could possibly have been again in the future and how easily her death could have been prevented?  What of her family who, actually remembering and having experienced the daughter she once was and still had hopes for, likely watched this video over and over hearing her last words and trying to find a reason?  I think it's the same with Mormon thousands of times multiplied.

 

Edited May 29, 2014 by BCSpace

[williamsmith]

 

Do you believe the Hill Cumorah (the place of that battle) is in New York state like the

April 1928 General Conference teaches?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

It says "so far as we have information the plates were deposted in the Hill Cumorah".

 

No where in that conference report does it actually say that "the battle" in fact took place at the Hill in New York.

It does "imply" that the hill is likely the self same hill since that is where the plates were found, and a hill with that name is where Mormon said he hid them up.

 

The important thing is that is where the plates were found and Angels visited.

 

"Where" otherwise....  There is no official statement.

[Opinion Slayer]

These are great questions, when I run into Mormon I will ask him directly that way there won't be any wiggle room for misinterpretation or assumptions. That way you won't get theories and you can know for sure what he meant. That's the best I could do for you but I do know for sure that the plates His son burried were found in upstate NY, if that helps? Oh and BTW it might be a while till I get back to you.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Opinion Slayer

[volgadon]

He makes several references to them as 'fair'.  How are they considered the 'fair ones' when they had departed from the ways of the Lord and had rejected Him?

 

 

A crazy little thing called love.

And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!

[theplains]

No where in that conference report does it actually say that "the battle" in fact took place at the Hill in New York.

It does "imply" that the hill is likely the self same hill since that is where the plates were found, and a hill with that name is where Mormon said he hid them up.

 

The context of the passage is the hill Cumorah in New York state.  Start reading on page 8,

13, and especially page 15.  There is no mention of there being two hills.

 

"This sealed portion of the record which came into the hands of Joseph Smith but was not

translated by him so far as we are aware, the abridgment made by Mormon, the record of

Ether, and the other sacred records which were deposited in the Hill Cumorah, still lie in their

repository, awaiting the time when the Lord shall see fit to bring them forth, that they may be

published to the world.

 

Whether they have been removed from the spot where Mormon deposited them we cannot tell,

but this we know, that they are safe under the guardianship of the Lord, and that they will be

brought forth at the proper time as the Lord has declared they should be, for the benefit and

blessing of the people of the world, for his word never fails.

 

According to the Book of Mormon many hundreds of thousands of people fell in battle around

this hill, and the immediate vicinity. It was here that two once powerful nations were exterminated

so far as their natural existence was concerned. It was here that these nations gathered together

for their last great struggles"

 

This is further enforced in Doctrines of Salvation. They are called doctrines, not speculations.

Screen prints posted at scribd.

 

Thanks,

Jim