MARS COLONIZATION -- THEOLOGICAL PROBLEM?

[Gray]

Hey, maybe Mars could be the new promised land. We might need it someday after we've finished destroying this planet. 

[Black Moclips]

As an interesting side note, there is a new show on the SyFi channel called The Expanse (I love all things sci-fi and this one is good). I cannot remember the actual year this supposedly takes place, but Mars has been colonized (has its own government and is independent of Earth) and people live on some of the larger asteroids for mining purposes. Anyway, in one of the episodes there was actually a mormon missionary on one of the asteroid colonies and he was preaching to the people there (the "belters" are typically the blue collar, worker class that have issues with health because they were born and live in space (bone strength issues). Anyway, I just thought it was a tiny side plot and funny, but in actuality, there was more to the plot.  In the show, the mormons are creating an inter-galactic spaceship called the "Nauvoo" to take their people into the unknown to find a new home (ET life so far has not been discovered). The spaceship even has a golden Moroni on top! In last week's episode, the ship was stolen (commandeered due to its size) before it was completely ready and used as a missile to try and knock another space station into a trajectory that would take it into the sun. Anyway, the mormons were kinda pissed. SPOILER ALERT: the Nauvoo missed its target so I'm not sure what going to happen with it. 

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 88: 37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

As for Joseph Fielding Smith - his claim about never travelling to the moon may have been a debunked opinion but the principle he espouses that "this earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it" is the theological question we should be looking at.

 

I guess we have different definition's of what Debunked means then

[Jeanne]

When the space shuttle blew up years ago, I had LDS friends/co-workers say that God didn't want us up there...so there.????

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have always thought it tendentious to claim that Jesus' sacrifice applied to other worlds.  Why wouldn't each world have its own Savior?

Anyhow, thanks for getting into the spirit of things here, Johnnie.

In a poetic paraphrase of Doctrine and Covenants 76, Joseph Smith wrote that Jesus Christ was not only the Creator but also the Savior of all worlds:
And I heard a great voice bearing record from heav'n,
He's the Saviour, and only begotten of God -
By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made,
Even all that career in the heavens so broad,
Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last,
Are sav'd by the very same Saviour of ours;
And, of course, are begotten God's daughters and sons,
By the very same truths, and the very same pow'rs.
(Times and Seasons, 1 Feb. 1843, 82-83)

Elder Marion G. Romney said,
"Except for his mortal ministry accomplished on this earth, his service and relationship to other worlds and their inhabitants are the same as his service and relationship to this earth and its inhabitants" (Improvement Era, Nov. 1968, 46).

For this reason I see no problem with earth people populating other planets like mars, although I don't think it will happen any time soon. I think we should find better ways to utilize the space still here on this planet.

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Humans have already been to the Moon, and NASA plans a manned mission to Mars for the 2030s.  Now the United Arab Emirates have proposed placing a permanent colony on Mars by 2117, and Elon Musk seems to be on the same wavelength.  Does this pose any problem for LDS theology, or for any other religious belief system?  Do we need to develop some sort of planetary or galactic theology?  Or is it already there in the Book of Abraham and Doctrine & Covenants?

No, not for our theology. Going to other planets is something our species has been doing forever.  And yes it is a problem that other religious societies do not believe that because it limits their level of intelligence that they would otherwise have if they believed it.

And yes the theology is based on what our Father has already told us, going back as far as we have aNY records.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, longview said:

No.   God is in charge.  He is the Presiding Authority.  Yes, BoA and D&C very amply cover that whole aspect.

One of my favorite columnist (blogger), Adrian Vance, says that taxpayers the world over would be far better served (a thousand times over) if we were to focus our exploring and adventuring in the deep reaches of the oceans (such as the Mariana Trench).  We need to build 'deep' posts to examine the geology, minerals, stratification, and a whole host of potential discoveries waiting down there that will BOGGLE the mind.  We could stumble across sunken cities/civilizations (BoM cities, Atlantis, etc).

Nice, but there are people worried that humans on Earth may become extinct through some major tragedy (supervolcano, meteor impact, thermonuclear war, a super bug, etc.), and that having colonies on other planets will ensure our survival as the human race.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, waveslider said:

I personally don't think that this will happen in the 2030s because according to the regular 206 year patterns of global cooling caused by the Sun's inactivity we will be struggling so hard to even have enough food and keep disease and pestilence down that to even think about any type of space travel will be just a pipe dream at that time. Food already is in a huge shortage from all the flooding, hail and freezing in the fields, and we are just barely going into the Eddy Minimum. We still have a few more years before it's a full blown mini ice age and no one is preparing just because of political agendas and corrupt scientists perpetuating the false idea that us humans are causing the Earth to warm as they constantly falsify data to try and show that the Earth is warming due to our use of carbon, when in reality it is actually cooling due to the Sun which has always driven our weather. I know I will get a bunch of crap thrown at me for stating this by those who have been completely fooled into believing the myth of Global Warming, but with the internet we can easily see where NOAA and NASA fabricate false temperature data just by looking at the temperature maps of the world that they produce and comparing them to where they do and don't have any data coming in for temperature. It amazes me how many times they have recorded record heat in areas where there are no temperature reading stations at, and by comparing them to real time remote temperature readings that show the opposite of what they are trying to make us all believe.

Time will tell for anyone who doesn't believe this, but I'm quite certain that life as we know it won't exist anymore by 2030. We either have to adapt or we won't make it. I hope everyone has their year supplies as food prices climb sky high due to shortened growing seasons. So space flight to Mars will be the least of our concerns by then.

An almost atavistic view, waveslider, but 2030 is only a few short years away.  Anyone want to start the clock?  It will be interesting to see which set of problems bring us catastrophe.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

In a poetic paraphrase of Doctrine and Covenants 76, Joseph Smith wrote that Jesus Christ was not only the Creator but also the Savior of all worlds:
And I heard a great voice bearing record from heav'n,
He's the Saviour, and only begotten of God -
By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made,
Even all that career in the heavens so broad,
Whose inhabitants, too, from the first to the last,
Are sav'd by the very same Saviour of ours;
And, of course, are begotten God's daughters and sons,
By the very same truths, and the very same pow'rs.
(Times and Seasons, 1 Feb. 1843, 82-83)

Elder Marion G. Romney said,
"Except for his mortal ministry accomplished on this earth, his service and relationship to other worlds and their inhabitants are the same as his service and relationship to this earth and its inhabitants" (Improvement Era, Nov. 1968, 46).

For this reason I see no problem with earth people populating other planets like mars, although I don't think it will happen any time soon. I think we should find better ways to utilize the space still here on this planet.

I consider "the worlds" different than "all worlds," and as a limited collection.  In an infinite universe (multiverse) with infinite gods, no beginning and no end, it is not conceivable that only one God created everything and that his Son was right there all along.  God started just like us, as a human.  He had a Father in Heaven, just like we do now.  He sacrificed himself the same way this Son would one day do (Jesus only does what he saw the Father do).  Certainly Jehovah and Michael and all the heavenly host assisted God the Father in creation of worlds (say of this solar system).  The cycle is endless, but only one Savior per inhabited world.

Brother Brigham was quite direct in saying that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50, April 1852; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6).  Hugh Nibley said,, along the same lines:

Quote

All the worlds are organized in a common pattern, . . in all the worlds you will find God alone rules but with a presidency of three and a council of twelve.  This is the rule of all worlds.  The repetitions are infinite in number and scope . . . .  As a Yeu becomes a Father, the Father then appoints new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn become Fathers, etc. (cf. First Jeu 48:8; 50:1-3; 97:25-28; Pistis Sophia I, 91, 94; III, 285, 319, 329-330; IV, 355:15,23, 370:10,19,24).  Nibley, "Apocryphal Writings," FARMS Preliminary Report N-APO, p. 13

 

[CV75]

22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Some might argue that we are supposed to be an Earth-bound species, and that all the end-time prophecies apply only to Earth.  Would the Millennium, for example, apply to Mars as well?  Even the three degrees of glory include a terrestrial zone as the second level, and celestial as the third level.  Where does the Martian level fit in, if at all?

Is intersteller travel only to be accomplished by celestial beings -- the fastest mode of travel, and the most effective means of colonization of other worlds?

I think at the Second Coming, every Earthling that might be traveling in outer space or colonizing another planet would be called (gathered) home to the stewardship headed up by Adam, and to receive his rightful inheritance no matter how far he strayed or where his kingdom ends up being.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think at the Second Coming, every Earthling that might be traveling in outer space or colonizing another planet would be called (gathered) home to the stewardship headed up by Adam, and to receive his rightful inheritance no matter how far he strayed or where his kingdom ends up being.

Astronaut at Second Coming:

"I spent 20 years getting to Alpha Centauri and had only another decade left to go and you took it upon yourself to throw that all away teleport me back just for your little Homecoming Reunion Tour?"

[waveslider]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

An almost atavistic view, waveslider, but 2030 is only a few short years away.  Anyone want to start the clock?  It will be interesting to see which set of problems bring us catastrophe.

It isn't so much atavistic as it is repeating cycles that have shown to be just like clock work, if you care to go back and study the natural patterns of the Sun and the effects it causes upon all the planets within our solar system. It is no more atavistic than the 11 year solar cycles that most people are at least aware of. John L. Casey, policy advisor to the White House and Congress, Senior Field Engineer on the Space Shuttle Program and consultant to NASA, and CEO of the International Earthquake and Volcano Prediction Center has already started the clock. You can read about it in his newest book: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=r2bWDQAAQBAJ&source=productsearch&utm_source=HA_Desktop_US&utm_medium=SEM&utm_campaign=PLA&pcampaignid=MKTAD0930BO1&gclid=CIDwxIympNICFfAYfgodzMMA2Q&gclsrc=ds

If you don't care to purchase the book you might just want to watch the interview about it for free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTJCY6M-3fY

Or you can even look at all the revelations for the end times and see many of the very same things that sound science is also predicting here, although the revelations aren't giving such specific dates.

 

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Astronaut at Second Coming:

"I spent 20 years getting to Alpha Centauri and had only another decade left to go and you took it upon yourself to throw that all away teleport me back just for your little Homecoming Reunion Tour?"

Yes Major Tom.  Time to come back, and we mean right now!

signed, Ground Control

[JAHS]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I consider "the worlds" different than "all worlds," and as a limited collection.  In an infinite universe (multiverse) with infinite gods, no beginning and no end, it is not conceivable that only one God created everything and that his Son was right there all along.  God started just like us, as a human.  He had a Father in Heaven, just like we do now.  He sacrificed himself the same way this Son would one day do (Jesus only does what he saw the Father do).  Certainly Jehovah and Michael and all the heavenly host assisted God the Father in creation of worlds (say of this solar system).  The cycle is endless, but only one Savior per inhabited world.

When I refer to all the worlds I am talking about those within this universe that were created by our God. Of course there are other universes created by other Gods who will have their own redeemer. 

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 10:29 AM, JLHPROF said:

Well, how about this one.

According to Mormon theology God resides on a Celestialized world.
If travel between planets were possible, is it conceivable that we could reach God by means of propulsion rather than perfection?

This sounds like a Star Trek movie...and not one of the good ones.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This sounds like a Star Trek movie...and not one of the good ones.

Yes, definitely an odd-numbered Trek movie...

[CV75]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Astronaut at Second Coming:

"I spent 20 years getting to Alpha Centauri and had only another decade left to go and you took it upon yourself to throw that all away teleport me back just for your little Homecoming Reunion Tour?"

Houston to Astro-Boy: "Go ahead and finish the trip, the Millennium is a long time... and don't hurry back -- but no mini pizza bites for you though."

[Ahab]

54 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Houston to Astro-Boy: "Go ahead and finish the trip, the Millennium is a long time... and don't hurry back -- but no mini pizza bites for you though."

Uh, yeah, well, there may not be a hurry, technically, but there is something kinda nice about being among those who are resurrected first and called up to meet our Lord as he returns rather than among those who have to wait until the 1000 years have come to an end.

And Astro-Boy could hopefully just go back to Alpha CentaurI sometime a little later, and faster.

[carbon dioxide]

Is the problem with theology is that God is not able to resurrect a dead person on Mars or the Holy Ghost is bound to earth? The only real question is Satan and his friends were cast down to Earth, is Satan bound to the Earth or can his move back and forth from Earth to Mars.  Perhaps some of his followers will hitch a ride on a spacecraft?  Perhaps it is possible to be more righteous on Mars?

Edited February 23, 2017 by carbon dioxide

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Is the problem with theology is that God is not able to resurrect a dead person on Mars or the Holy Ghost is bound to earth? The only real question is Satan and his friends were cast down to Earth, is Satan bound to the Earth or can his move back and forth from Earth to Mars.  Perhaps some of his followers will hitch a ride on a spacecraft?  Perhaps it is possible to be more righteous on Mars?

This was the plot of an old Babylon 5 episode. A demon possessed a guy to get off of Earth and then tried to convince everyone to exorcise him as demons were trapped on Earth but hitching a ride out and getting cast out would free it to roam the Universe. They figured this out and had the demoniac taken back to Earth and performed the exorcism there.

But no, I imagine devils can get to Mars.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, JAHS said:

When I refer to all the worlds I am talking about those within this universe that were created by our God. Of course there are other universes created by other Gods who will have their own redeemer. 

So you are placing this 200-billion galaxy universe all in our Father's hands?  How do you figure that?  Why couldn't each 200-biilion star galaxy be operated by a single God?  Moreover, since some gods have been around longer than others, wouldn't each realm vary in size or scale?  And why wouldn't each earth need its own Savior?

[Ahab]

56 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So you are placing this 200-billion galaxy universe all in our Father's hands?  How do you figure that?  Why couldn't each 200-biilion star galaxy be operated by a single God?  Moreover, since some gods have been around longer than others, wouldn't each realm vary in size or scale?  And why wouldn't each earth need its own Savior?

What I like is when galaxies collide and mingle for a little while, kinda like the old Reese's peanut butter cup commercials.

"You got chocolate in my peanut butter"

"You got peanut butter on my chocolate"

A couple of glorified guys sharing their galaxies with each other, I think.

[PeterPear]

On 2/21/2017 at 9:46 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

When it comes to matters beyond earth, LDS prophets do not have a very good track record.

Brigham Young believed that the Sun was inhabited...as silly as that seems.

Joseph Smith claimed that the moon was occupied by a colony of Quakers According to Oliver Huntington:

According to FAIR...this view was also held by Brigham Young as well as Hyrum Smith

and Joseph Fielding Smith claimed that man would never walk on the moon

Probably best to stick to their knitting here on earth

I agree with President Joseph Fielding Smith.

Man will make it to Mars if the stagehands do a better job than NASA did.

😏

 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So you are placing this 200-billion galaxy universe all in our Father's hands?  How do you figure that?  Why couldn't each 200-biilion star galaxy be operated by a single God?  Moreover, since some gods have been around longer than others, wouldn't each realm vary in size or scale?  And why wouldn't each earth need its own Savior?

As I mentioned earlier past prophets in our dispensation have said Jesus is the redeemer for all the worlds (earths) created by Him.  God said "And worlds without number have I created;" I do assume he is talking about all the worlds in our multibillion galaxy universe that He created.  Other Gods created other universes with their own saviors.
Of course we don't know any of this for sure, but to me anyway this makes the best sense.

[Robert F. Smith]

19 minutes ago, JAHS said:

As I mentioned earlier past prophets in our dispensation have said Jesus is the redeemer for all the worlds (earths) created by Him.  God said "And worlds without number have I created;" I do assume he is talking about all the worlds in our multibillion galaxy universe that He created.  Other Gods created other universes with their own saviors.
Of course we don't know any of this for sure, but to me anyway this makes the best sense.

I don't see that the worlds he mentions need go beyond our solar system, but of course I could be wrong.  One day we will all learn the glorious truth.