Predestination vs Foreordained

[emeliza]

I grew up Presbyterian so followers of Calvin and Knox.  Predestination never sat well with me among other things.  One of the draws to the LDS church was that we believe in foreordaination, not predestination.

Lately it seems (at least in my ward) I hear a lot that sounds like predestination.  Comments on how we knew all the trials we would face before coming to earth, but decided to anyway.  Comments about how certain things in our lives had to happen. Most of this feels like it takes away agency, but I know with recent trials in my life, I might be looking at things with a bitter lens.

Some of these comments I can chalk up to being foreordained, but a lot of them are hedging on what sounds like predestination to me.

Can I get your thoughts on what the differences are and if you think we knew all our life and trials prior to coming here and did so anyway?  

[Kenngo1969]

30 minutes ago, emeliza said:

... Lately it seems (at least in my ward) I hear a lot that sounds like predestination.
 

Hmmm.  Perhaps it can be useful to define terms.  If one seeks information regarding predestination in an LDS context, most all resources of which I am aware refer their readers to the term foreordination.  This source, while, perhaps, it gets a bit lost in the weeds while discussing the appropriate translation of a particular passage from the Holy Bible, does a good job of differentiating between the two.  True To The Faith: A Gospel Reference also has a good (albeit brief) discussion of foreordination.

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Comments on how we knew all the trials we would face before coming to earth, but decided to anyway.

"Knew," writ small, as in, "On June 23, 1981, a surgeon will attempt to reconstruct your left hip and will place you into a cast completely immobilizing your lower body for several weeks.  However, the operation will not be successful"?  Or "knew," writ large, as in, "You will have a fair number of then-incomprehensible physical trials, and associated emotional turmoil.  However, if you are faithful, eventually, you will come off conqueror"?  We're told that we "shouted for joy" upon learning of the opportunity to come here to earth (see Job 38:4-7).  If we knew, in detail, of all of the trials which each of us individually would face after coming here to earth, perhaps we can be forgiven for wondering what all of the shouting was about?  

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Comments about how certain things in our lives had to happen.

In my view, there are various reasons why bad things happen to good people.  My departed sister-in-law is one of the finest people I've ever known.  That did not, however, prevent her from dying of cancer. (Alas! )  I don't know why she, of all people, died of cancer.  One reason why bad things happen to good people is simply because hap simply crappens.  As Rabbi Harold Kushner put it so well, "Expecting to have a trouble-free life because you are a good person is like expecting the bull not to charge you because you're a vegetarian." 

Bulls charge people; it's what they do.  Sometimes, life simply sucks; it's what it does.  And sometimes, cancer kills people; it's what it does.  As with so many other things in life (and death) cancer and other diseases which "have to happen" are simply a part of living in this mortal, fallen world.  I don't know why some people die while others are cured, but I trust that God does.  Another reason why things "have to happen" is man's inhumanity to man. Why does God allow such horrible things as (to name only a couple) rape and murder?  He gives us our agency, and then holds us accountable for what we do with it.  

Whatever earthly justice to which one might be subject, there is no escaping God's justice.  Cold comfort, perhaps, in the short term, but that's why a long-term perspective is so important: This is only the second act.  A veil of forgetfulness has caused us to forget the first act, and the third act hasn't happened yet.  It can be difficult for us to maintain perspective, given all that we don't know, but again, that's why a long-term perspective and faith in our ultimate understanding (current bewilderment notwithstanding) is key.

Another reason why bad things happen to good people is the law of the harvest, reaping what one sows. I've used this example on the Board before, but perhaps it is apropos of this discussion, as well.  Suppose an irresolute drunkard is introduced to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Suppose, through the miracle of the atonement, he is reformed, stops drinking, agrees to live the covenants associated with membership in the Church of Jesus Christ, and is baptized.

Suppose, shortly after, that he then is diagnosed with severe cirrhosis and end-stage liver failure.  Has he repented? Yes.  Is he in good standing before God?  Yes. Does God love him any less, his newly-discovered trial notwithstanding?  No.  But, barring a miracle which may or may not come to pass, depending on God's earthly purposes for him and his loved ones, he still is subject to the law of the harvest, reaping the bitter harvest of his previous poor choices and of his previous not-fully-choice-driven behavior. 

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Most of this feels like it takes away agency, but I know with recent trials in my life, I might be looking at things with a bitter lens.

Depends, I suppose, on how one defines agency.  If we say that agency is freedom to choose, then no trial and no circumstance, however dire, can take that away from us.  I might not like my circumstances; I might not like any of the available alternatives from which I may choose, but that doesn't take away my ability to choose at least the "least undesirable" of my undesirable alternatives, even if I might desire to have different choices.  

If I were imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp, I could choose to become embittered, to give up, and to die, or I could, even in my limited circumstances, continue, to the best of my ability, to find meaning in my life by helping others in however small a way I could, and so on.  That's the choice Viktor Frankl made. While I have yet to read his Man's Search for Meaning, it's on my book list. Whatever my circumstances, I can say, "This sucks!   It's not what I signed up for," or I can do the best I can, in whatever way I can, to whatever degree I can, however small, to make the most of my current circumstances, however undesirable they may seem to be.  I like President Dieter F. Uchtdorf's address from April 2014: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/grateful-in-any-circumstances?lang=eng&_r=1

Perhaps these will lend some additional perspective, as well:

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/on-gods-injustice/

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/11/16/beating-the-odds/

But enough of my bloviating!  

I wish you well.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, emeliza said:

I grew up Presbyterian so followers of Calvin and Knox.  Predestination never sat well with me among other things.  One of the draws to the LDS church was that we believe in foreordaination, not predestination.

Lately it seems (at least in my ward) I hear a lot that sounds like predestination.  Comments on how we knew all the trials we would face before coming to earth, but decided to anyway.  Comments about how certain things in our lives had to happen. Most of this feels like it takes away agency, but I know with recent trials in my life, I might be looking at things with a bitter lens.

Some of these comments I can chalk up to being foreordained, but a lot of them are hedging on what sounds like predestination to me.

Can I get your thoughts on what the differences are and if you think we knew all our life and trials prior to coming here and did so anyway?  

I think foreknowledge and predestination are very different things. If we knew all the trials we would face before coming to earth, but decided to come anyway, that still leaves room for faith because of the veil (in predestination, neither faith nor knowledge have much of a role, and the veil wouldn’t matter). Related to foreknowledge is prior agreement on how certain things in our lives had to happen, but that still leaves room for faith (and in some cases, rationalization when those certain things didn’t have to happen after all).

I think we may have known some things but in any case we only came here in agreement and faith that it would be in our best interest. We came here to get bodies, exercise faith and gain experience, all contributors to knowledge. I'm not sure how much a spirit can really "know" in that sense, so I think faith was the driving force, as it still is come to think of it.

[JAHS]

I think the only one who can call what happens to us as predestination is God Himself, since He knows everything from beginning to end. For the rest of us we don't know what's going to happen, but there are many who were foreordained to become leaders of God's kingdom on earth. But just because they were foreordained does not mean they have lost their agency to refuse to become such a leader. 

[emeliza]

I wasn't really asking why bad things happen.  I get that.  Or at least I don't question it.  It is part of the experience of life.  Trials come from other people's agency, our agency, people who lived hundreds of years before us, location, natural forces,...etc.

I was more wondering why it seems what is my understanding of predestination often creeps into lessons.  It seems to me that members might not know the difference.

In church I often hear that we knew all the trials we would face and all the obstacles, but still decided to come here. Sometimes I hear that we picked our trials.  I also hear that we picked our parents and the time period and such.  It creeps into lessons and talks that we knew all of this ahead of time and therefore we should accept things happily.  

I have always been of the opinion that we knew we would face trials, but not what they would be.  I believe having a decent attitude is important, but I just don't think I knew everything ahead of time, or that some poor kid stuck in sex trafficking picked her life before hand.  

I was just trying to figure out if predestination and foreordained were more intermingled than I had originally understood.  

[emeliza]

Thank you all.  It sounds like my thought is still in line with the differences in the two. 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, emeliza said:

I grew up Presbyterian so followers of Calvin and Knox.  Predestination never sat well with me among other things.  One of the draws to the LDS church was that we believe in foreordaination, not predestination.

Lately it seems (at least in my ward) I hear a lot that sounds like predestination.  Comments on how we knew all the trials we would face before coming to earth, but decided to anyway.  Comments about how certain things in our lives had to happen. Most of this feels like it takes away agency, but I know with recent trials in my life, I might be looking at things with a bitter lens.

Some of these comments I can chalk up to being foreordained, but a lot of them are hedging on what sounds like predestination to me.

Can I get your thoughts on what the differences are and if you think we knew all our life and trials prior to coming here and did so anyway?

My thought is that predestination is a false doctrine.  God would not be so cruel.
Foreordination is scriptural in Mormonism and in my opinion is based on our premortal lives.  Christ proved himself worthy there to be the Savior here.

As for knowing our life and trials, I don't believe we knew our specific personal trials.  I have seen no teaching or scripture to that effect.  However, I do believe we were well aware of mortality and fallen life and accepted the risks willingly in order to progress.  John Taylor taught that we watched others come to earth and their lives.  Other prophets have taught that the spirit world can see our actions and lives here.  I think we did know the kinds of trials and challenges that come with mortality.

[emeliza]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As for knowing our life and trials, I don't believe we knew our specific personal trials.  I have seen no teaching or scripture to that effect.  However, I do believe we were well aware of mortality and fallen life and accepted the risks willingly in order to progress.  John Taylor taught that we watched others come to earth and their lives.  Other prophets have taught that the spirit world can see our actions and lives here.  I think we did know the kinds of trials and challenges that come with mortality.

This makes sense. 

[Kenngo1969]

36 minutes ago, emeliza said:

I wasn't really asking why bad things happen.  I get that.  Or at least I don't question it.  It is part of the experience of life.  Trials come from other people's agency, our agency, people who lived hundreds of years before us, location, natural forces,...etc.

 

I still like my reply, so Hmph!  

 

I did address the LDS perspective difference between predestination and foreordination, or, as some of my Southern Utah ancestors and relatives might call it, farardination, though!  So there!   And I think the whole "Agency" thing is inextricably bound up in the notion that even though we might choose different circumstances, that doesn't change our ability to choose how to react to our current circumstances.

P.S.: I live in Pleasant Grove, which is right near American Fark.   

Edited February 1, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, emeliza said:

Can I get your thoughts on what the differences are and if you think we knew all our life and trials prior to coming here and did so anyway?  

The big difference is choice.  In LDS views, the ability to choose is a sacred God-given gift, and a person goes to Heaven or Hell based on their choice to accept Christ.  The idea that person may be denied agency and forced to Heaven is literally Satanic.  In Calvinism, God denies all people are choice and forces them to Hell or Heaven.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[emeliza]

Yes, I wasn't discrediting your response, just clarifying that I don't question bad things.  I mean I do a bit, but mostly just in a "why me" type of way, not a full out "this is unfair" way.  Life is unfair and often brutal. Other times it is wonderful and awesome.

 

Anyway, i participate via my phone, so quoting, posting and following can get really annoying and confusing.  Hence the lurking.

 

Thanks for your response as well.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, emeliza said:

Can I get your thoughts on what the differences are and if you think we knew all our life and trials prior to coming here and did so anyway?  

When we speak of trials and tribulations in life and knowing beforehand, it is not about specifics. Two things to remember, we may have known that life can be perilous, but our limited understanding, having never know pain and suffering means a lack of complete understanding. Also, we would have not been told, or known of our day to day, or year to year difficulties, because much of what we know or suffer in life (to us) is based on how we use our agency (internal trials). This is way Calvinism is so harsh and lacking of all we know of scripture. Calvinism means we have no agency, that we are saved or damned, no matter what we do, that we are merely puppets. We are taught in our scriptures that, "...we are free to act, rather than to be acted upon. If any lessons in Church have suggested otherwise, either the teacher or those who take part are in error of what is being taught or discussed. 

As it relates to what happens to us, or what we experience (external pressures), this also is not set in stone. What is important in this case, is how we endure. In the case of the eternal, it is if we endure to the end. All things may be given us that we may gain experience and for our own good, that we may become like God, but again not something known to us before this life began. Often times those who are not currently walking through the valley of death, see the need to shout out directions from the peaks above, thinking they know best. Sadly those who are doing the shouting outside the valley are often shouting opinions, and not doctrine. When this is happening to the suffering, it is the time to turn down the noise, and turn to scripture...setting our eyes toward home. I am so sorry for the sorrow, and embarrassed (for what may be well meaning members) for those who might be giving out Calvinist leaning in a Gospel that teaches otherwise. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, emeliza said:

Yes, I wasn't discrediting your response, just clarifying that I don't question bad things.  I mean I do a bit, but mostly just in a "why me" type of way, not a full out "this is unfair" way.  Life is unfair and often brutal. Other times it is wonderful and awesome.

 

Anyway, i participate via my phone, so quoting, posting and following can get really annoying and confusing.  Hence the lurking.

 

Thanks for your response as well.

Why me? Without a doubt, the payer of prayers, to a loving God. Here are a few lines of a poem that has made up a large part of my own prayer life. 

Hear me Father, as I cry

Once again the question; Why?

Hold in Thine mine trembling hand

As now I seek to understand. 

My once secure and sound belief,

Now shaken in this hour of grief.

Draw near and leave me not alone,

Hide not Thy face on yonder throne. 

From the darkness, set me free

With mortal eyes that cannot see,

A smaller part of a greater plan

Known to Thee, believes by man. 

(From the poem) Thy Wonderous Plan ~Lee~

[emeliza]

Thank you

[RevTestament]

On 2/1/2017 at 7:26 AM, emeliza said:

I grew up Presbyterian so followers of Calvin and Knox.  Predestination never sat well with me among other things.  One of the draws to the LDS church was that we believe in foreordaination, not predestination.

Hi Emeliza

Although I am thumbing my nose at my Scottish heritage, Calvinism is one of my least favorite Christian theologies. There seems no reason for God to even create this world if He will control everything so that all outcomes are predetermined. I do believe in foreordination, but I don't believe God has planned our each and every action or thought. To suggest that means that He planned our sinful thoughts. The difference is that in predestination there is no free agency. We cannot fall. However, I believe that some were followers of God before this world and therefore are ordained to receive certain knowledge and gifts by which it is their honor to be able to follow God in truth in this world. For instance I believe Paul was foreordained to become an apostle, and therefore despite his persecution of Yeshua, he received the gift of a visit or vision from Yeshua - how many other apostates can say that? So Yeshua gave him enough guidance to steer Paul in the right direction. So in a sense the concepts of predestination and foreordination are similar, but they definitely are not the same.

Quote

Lately it seems (at least in my ward) I hear a lot that sounds like predestination.  Comments on how we knew all the trials we would face before coming to earth, but decided to anyway.  Comments about how certain things in our lives had to happen. Most of this feels like it takes away agency, but I know with recent trials in my life, I might be looking at things with a bitter lens.

Some of these comments I can chalk up to being foreordained, but a lot of them are hedging on what sounds like predestination to me.

Can I get your thoughts on what the differences are and if you think we knew all our life and trials prior to coming here and did so anyway?  

I don't know if we knew beforehand each of our trials in this life. Nevertheless, JS said that if we wish to have the same authority as Christ we must each accomplish it the same way He did - by following the law and ordinances of the priesthood. So those who would have offered to follow Him surely had some inkling into what that would entail. We just don't remember that, while He apparently did, and remembered His glory with the Father before this world. I don't really see any point about speculating further on the subject... 

 

[Five Solas]

There's a short but useful write-up of foreordination/predestination here: http://gracegospelministry.com/Articles/foreordination_predestination.htm

Foreordination denotes God’s sovereign plan whereby in eternity He has already decreed all that is to happen in the entire universe, which He created. 

I really don't get how LDS could embrace foreordination (short of inventing a new definition at sharp variance to the common one). It refutes their old idol, "free agency."

;0)

--Erik

[halconero]

Easy. I'm ordained as an Elder in the Melchizedek priesthood. This entitles me to all sorts of authority, privileges, powers and potentialities mostly on the condition of moral action. It does not entitle me to fulfill any of that. Power in the Priesthood by President Nelson is a phenomenal read (and one of the top talks of my lifetime, in my opinion) on the subject.

We extend that to the pre-earth life. We were endowed with powers, authorities, privileges and potentialities based on our moral actions. We are not forced into doing so, however.

With regards to OP's point. I don't believe we knew the specifics of our trials. Perhaps we knew of missions, works, or sufferings we might undergo, but nothing more than a general sense of them.

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I really don't get how LDS could embrace foreordination (short of inventing a new definition at sharp variance to the common one). It refutes their old idol, "free agency."

Nah, we didn't invent a new definition - we restored the original.

 http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Foreordination

[stemelbow]

6 hours ago, Five Solas said:

There's a short but useful write-up of foreordination/predestination here: http://gracegospelministry.com/Articles/foreordination_predestination.htm

Foreordination denotes God’s sovereign plan whereby in eternity He has already decreed all that is to happen in the entire universe, which He created. 

I really don't get how LDS could embrace foreordination (short of inventing a new definition at sharp variance to the common one). It refutes their old idol, "free agency."

;0)

--Erik

Along with what has been said, it is true, LDS see foreordination different than predestination and therefore does not denote "God’s sovereign plan whereby in eternity He has already decreed all that is to happen in the entire universe, which He created"

That definitaiton carries baggage for LDS in that God knows the final outcome of it all, but does not decreed all that is to happen.  Nor did He create ex nihilo, so there's no presumption that God directed all that happened before it ever happened.

 

 

[Five Solas]

On 2/7/2017 at 1:16 PM, pogi said:

Nah, we didn't invent a new definition - we restored the original.

 http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Foreordination

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt & presume your tongue was firmly in your cheek, pogi.  Previously I suggested LDS would have to invent a new definition for the word foreordination to make it palatable for them.  And then you follow me up with a link to BYU, to prove my point exactly.  Bump, set, spike!  "Foreordination is the premortal..." Four words in--and we're done.  Christianity knows nothing of a premortal existence (and before anyone throws Jeremiah 1:5 out there, please do your homework first).

Maybe give us that little winking emoticon next time--lest anyone have lingering doubt.

;0)

--Erik

PS.  And now, my 4 year-old's favorite song (at least so far this month).  If it calls to mind a few threads, not my fault!  And even though you probably don't have the privilege of living in Seattle, you can still stream KEXP.  You're welcome. 

[Five Solas]

On 2/1/2017 at 9:01 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

P.S.: I live in Pleasant Grove...

My Aunt Lynn used to live in Pleasant Grove.  Before she got too old to care for them, she had chickens, a horse and several small dogs on a couple of acres down there.  She had a riding mower for the lawn--I remember that too.  Sometime in the late 70's - early 80's she served an LDS mission, in Wisconsin I think it was.  The property never recovered from her extended absence, lawn became weeds, etc.  It was important to my mom to visit, but I never liked going there.  That was in the days when Geneva Steel filled the local air with sulfur.  So funny to see that name again.  Maybe that's part of why I can't ignore this forum for long - little flashes of me, and my heritage - all inadvertent. 

So thanks for that, Kenngo1969. 

--Erik 

[strappinglad]

Consider Christ in the garden and His prayer. He knew His mission and He knew His position as the Son of God , and yet it seems that when it came right down to it even He was surprised at the intensity of the experience He had to endure and asked to be removed from it. His example was to accept the will of the Father.

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Christianity knows nothing of a premortal existence

Hence the restoration.  The root being "restore" and not "invent".

[JLHPROF]

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Previously I suggested LDS would have to invent a new definition for the word foreordination to make it palatable for them.  And then you follow me up with a link to BYU, to prove my point exactly.  Bump, set, spike!  "Foreordination is the premortal..." Four words in--and we're done.  Christianity knows nothing of a premortal existence (and before anyone throws Jeremiah 1:5 out there, please do your homework first).

And by Christianity you mean?
Certain denominations and sects?  All so-called "traditional Christians"?

Pre-mortal existence is not a purely Mormon creation.

[RevTestament]

16 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt & presume your tongue was firmly in your cheek, pogi.  Previously I suggested LDS would have to invent a new definition for the word foreordination to make it palatable for them.  And then you follow me up with a link to BYU, to prove my point exactly.  Bump, set, spike!  "Foreordination is the premortal..." Four words in--and we're done.  Christianity knows nothing of a premortal existence (and before anyone throws Jeremiah 1:5 out there, please do your homework first).

Maybe give us that little winking emoticon next time--lest anyone have lingering doubt.

;0)

--Erik

PS.  And now, my 4 year-old's favorite song (at least so far this month).  If it calls to mind a few threads, not my fault!  And even though you probably don't have the privilege of living in Seattle, you can still stream KEXP.  You're welcome. 

There are other Christians besides LDS who believe in a pre-mortal existence based upon scripture besides Jeremiah 1:5. When you read the scriptures carefully through LDS eyes, they all make complete sense. The veil of the temple was just closed by the RCC - Christ opened the way to the holiest of all, and the RCC closed it back up within a few hundred years. Nevertheless, the scriptures can be taken literally that our spirits were not created but came from God - are "blown" into our created bodies - thus creating a soul. See Ecclesiastes: "the body returns to the dust from which it came, but our spirit will return to God who gave it." Nowhere does scripture say our spirits were created. That is why one third of the spirits were angels of the devil even before the resurrection. Else how could there have been spirits following him? See Revelation. Who were the spirits Christ sent into the pigs? So when the NT says that we were organized to come into this world according to the foreknowledge of our Lord, it means it quite literally. He had foreknowledge based upon our foreactions . Further, that is also why God says when He creates a new world, the former (this world) will not be remembered nor come into mind. Isaiah 65. I could go on, but perhaps you get the point.

Edited February 9, 2017 by RevTestament