The MoTab Choir Performing at the Inauguration: Politicized?

[Danzo]

17 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

What are we to learn from the groupthink that allowed the Holocaust to occur? Are we never supposed to warn about social/economic malaise used for collective scapegoating of entire classes of people? 

There are similarities now. It's not as if that means Trump will initiate genocide, but it can be argued that he's helping to worsen conditions that lead masses to collectively make very bad decisions.

I think trump seems more like Silvio Berlusconi than like Hitler.  I wonder if the choir ever sang for Berlusconi?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course Hitler didn't start out as totalitarian dictator; he had no power. But you've already said Hitler spelled out his attitudes in Mien Kampf (which is true; I'm reading it now).

I still say comparing Trump to Hitler, before he has even stepped into the Oval Office is irrational.

I hope I am wrong, but I believe that a rational appraisal tells us that a great debacle is slouching our way.  The best predictor of human behavior is past behavior, and those who can't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course Hitler didn't start out as totalitarian dictator; he had no power. But you've already said Hitler spelled out his attitudes in Mien Kampf (which is true; I'm reading it now).

May I suggest "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer.  A bit out of date, though.

Edited January 3, 2017 by cdowis

[Calm]

Read that when I was 14.  (That, a nonfiction book about the 6 day war, and Exodus by Leon Uris.) Never been able to watch a realistic war movie since then after the images of the death camps.  I think about how even if pretend in the movie, those horrors stand for real people suffering.  I don't feel the need to feel socially redeemed by being reminded it can happen.  I can't forget it did.

It is one of the reasons comparisons to Hitler usually make me angry.

I don't suppose I could convince many to shift to Joseph McCarthy instead?

I am rather surprised we have heard only some comparisons to him.  I would have thought he was the go to image for Trump, but maybe he is too faded into history.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Calm

[bluebell]

18 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

What are we to learn from the groupthink that allowed the Holocaust to occur? Are we never supposed to warn about social/economic malaise used for collective scapegoating of entire classes of people? 

There are similarities now. It's not as if that means Trump will initiate genocide, but it can be argued that he's helping to worsen conditions that lead masses to collectively make very bad decisions.

It really does take a whole course on Germany in the 20s and 30s to be able to piece together how the Holocaust was allowed to happen.  I took one and it was the most eye opening but horrendous course I ever had to take.  I encourage everyone to take one if you live near a university that offers one .  But be warned.  There's  a reason my university offered mental health options to those who took it.  4 months of in depth reading of primary Holocaust sources is brutal.

But I do agree with what you are saying. My issue is the whole "boy who cried wolf"  phenomenon. 

How many irrational comparisons to Hitler do you think it takes before people stop listening?  Probably not that many. 

That's one reason I think willy/nilly Hitler comparisons are irresponsible.   It dulls people ability to notice the real thing when it comes along.

[Sky]

I applaud Jan Chamberlin for standing up for her convictions!  President Hinckley always told us to stand for something, and that's what I see her doing here.  I wouldn't sing for Trump, either.  Trump has demonstrated his bigotry and ignorance and ill-preparedness for the job over and over again. It's there for all with eyes to see!  Time to say enough is enough!  I won't sing for this wicked man.  Do what is right, let the consequences follow...

[Sleeper Cell]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Has trump attended security briefings? hmmmmmmmmmmm, the Russians are hacking and he doesn't seem to care. Pres. Benson would be rolling over in his grave right now. Have you paid attention to the uptick in violence since Trump got elected? that's what I am talking about and what has he done to stop it? 

2) if you sworn to uphold the constitution wouldn't it make sense to swear on the constitution. I've never read it and don't care to or my own country's

3) I like you!!!! if you invited me over for dinner i'd totally accept it, unless you're serving blood pudding or boiled raccoon! Where does it end though with invites? if a hooker invited me to partake would I be justified in saying  well, sure it's not like I approve of ti but i'm just representing everyone who can't and it's an honour or something. To me, politically neutral means you don't get involved in politics, your country or anyone else's. You stay out of politics because you don't want to be seen as favouring one person over another or that being a good member means you'd vote for this or that party. What would the worst thing that could happen if the Church said no to this invite? 

4) I wasn't comparing the MTC  to the KKK, i'm saying they probably have a choir or could get one and could sing and they already have the robes for it, just ditch the hat piece. 

1.  What has Trump done to stop violence?   Isn’t that sorta the job of those who are currently running the government (like Obama)?  

2.  If you never have read our constitution, don’t you feel a little silly telling us that nearly all of our presidents (starting with George Washington) have violated it while in the very act of swearing to uphold, preserve, and defend it?  Especially, since, in most cases, these alleged “violations” were aided and abetted, over the years,  by various Chief Justices of the Supreme Court?   (BTW, George Washington presided over the convention which actually wrote our constitution)

3. As Bernard Gui pointed out:  “Accepting an invitation could possibly be seen as a political statement, but rejecting an invitation could only be seen as a political statement.”    

Why?  Because the church has accepted every presidential invitation for the last 50 years, regardless of who was president.  Sis. Chamberlain did not publicly object to the MTC singing at presidential inaugurals, per se, but only at Trump’s inaugural.   

Even if, for the sake of discussion, I were to agree with you that the MTC singing at any inaugural violated the church’s “political neutrality,”  Sis. Chamberlain and her supporters have made it impossible for the Church to withdraw without it being seen as anything other than a political statement -- and one based on cowardice, rather than principle.  

 

Incidentally, I like you too!   You are more than welcome to have dinner at my place (Southern California area).    

[Duncan]

Just now, Sleeper Cell said:

1.  What has Trump done to stop violence?   Isn’t that sorta the job of those who are currently running the government (like Obama)?  

2.  If you never have read our constitution, don’t you feel a little silly telling us that nearly all of our presidents (starting with George Washington) have violated it while in the very act of swearing to uphold, preserve, and defend it?  Especially, since, in most cases, these alleged “violations” were aided and abetted, over the years,  by various Chief Justices of the Supreme Court?   (BTW, George Washington presided over the convention which actually wrote our constitution)

3. As Bernard Gui pointed out:  “Accepting an invitation could possibly be seen as a political statement, but rejecting an invitation could only be seen as a political statement.”    

Why?  Because the church has accepted every presidential invitation for the last 50 years, regardless of who was president.  Sis. Chamberlain did not publicly object to the MTC singing at presidential inaugurals, per se, but only at Trump’s inaugural.   

Even if, for the sake of discussion, I were to agree with you that the MTC singing at any inaugural violated the church’s “political neutrality,”  Sis. Chamberlain and her supporters have made it impossible for the Church to withdraw without it being seen as anything other than a political statement -- and one based on cowardice, rather than principle.  

 

Incidentally, I like you too!   You are more than welcome to have dinner at my place (Southern California area).    

I would hope that the cops are trying to clamp down on these upticks but Trump's rise to power seems to give impetus to thugs and crooked people and let's hope the alt right crowd don't get violent come Jan. 20th

I served in the Arcadia mission!  i'm just saying that PUSA are swearing to uphold the constitution by swearing on the Bible, shouldn't they swear on the constitution?

 

[Calm]

It is not the tradition, Duncan.

It means they are taking a serious oath, not that they are committing to the Bible.  The Bible is a symbol of God himself, the Constitution isn't.

Like someone would 'swear on their mother's grave'...witnessing before something they respect so much, they would never consider breaking their word.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

It is not the tradition, Duncan.

It means they are taking a serious oath, not that they are committing to the Bible.  The Bible is a symbol of God himself, the Constitution isn't.

Like someone would 'swear on their mother's grave'...witnessing before something they respect so much, they would never consider breaking their word.

are they upholding their mother's grave? or the constitution? i get what you mean but traditions can be goofy 

[cdowis]

 

59 minutes ago, Sky said:

I applaud Jan Chamberlin for standing up for her convictions!  President Hinckley always told us to stand for something, and that's what I see her doing here.  I wouldn't sing for Trump, either.  Trump has demonstrated his bigotry and ignorance and ill-preparedness for the job over and over again. It's there for all with eyes to see!  Time to say enough is enough!  I won't sing for this wicked man.  Do what is right, let the consequences follow...

She won't have to sing for "this wicked man" simply by not putting her name on the list to go.  It was voluntary.

To resign from the MTC implies the "holier than thou" attitude that she is judging the rest of the choir, and, actually, the church itself.  I give her a Bronx cheer for her 15 minutes of fame by trash talking this wonderful choir with her "throwing roses at Hitler" comment.

Edited January 3, 2017 by cdowis

[Duncan]

Just now, cdowis said:

 

She won't have to sing for "this wicked man" by not putting her name on the list to go.  It was voluntary.

To resign from the MTC implies the "holier than thou" attitude that she is judging the rest of the choir, and, actually, the church itself.  I give her a Bronx cheer for her 15 minutes of fame by trash talking this wonderful choir with her "throwing roses at Hitler" comment.

Their is a Greg Trimble blog post, "A Huge Thank you to each Motab singer who has decided to stay and sing"?-I think that's the title, is this holier then thou? http://www.gregtrimble.com/a-huge-thank-you-to-each-motab-singer-who-has-decided-to-stay-and-sing/

Edited January 3, 2017 by Duncan

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Read that when I was 14.  (That, a nonfiction book about the 6 day war, and Exodus by Leon Uris.) Never been able to watch a realistic war movie since then after the images of the death camps.  I think about how even if pretend in the movie, those horrors stand for real people suffering.  I don't feel the need to feel socially redeemed by being reminded it can happen.  I can't forget it did.

It is one of the reasons comparisons to Hitler usually make me angry.

I don't suppose I could convince many to shift to Joseph McCarthy instead?

I am rather surprised we have heard only some comparisons to him.  I would have thought he was the go to image for Trump, but maybe he is too faded into history.

Or we could consider for comparison Tricky **** Nixon.  His Vice President, Attorney General, chiefs of staff (the dobermans, Ehrlichman & Haldeman), counsel, and many others, all went to Federal Prison.  Nixon had to resign in order to keep from being impeached:  We don't send our presidents to prison, even when they deserve it.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wonder if anyone has a timetable for when they expect Trump to have turned into Hitler. I'd like to track this thing if I can.

No timetable, then?

Very well.

For the next four years, on January 20, I will revisit this matter in a post on this board. Each year, I will evaluate whether, in accordance with the dire predictions of this thread, any of the following have occurred:

-- The Trump administration has begun to wage aggressive and global warfare.

-- The Trump administration has begun the forced deportation of thousands of innocent civilians, including citizens.

-- The Trump administration has begun to practice genocide on inhabitants of this country and of other countries that it seizes as a result of number 1 above.

-- Pursuant to the above, the Trump administration has begun the operation of relocation, concentration and death camps.

-- The Trump administration has begun the systematic persecution and slaughter of millions of people based on race and/or ethnicity.

I think it's fair to say that if none of the above has happened by the fourth year, we could safely say that the dire predictions here about Trump becoming like Adolph Hitler will have failed.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

May I suggest "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer.  A bit out of date, though.

 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Read that when I was 14.  (That, a nonfiction book about the 6 day war, and Exodus by Leon Uris.) Never been able to watch a realistic war movie since then after the images of the death camps.  I think about how even if pretend in the movie, those horrors stand for real people suffering.  I don't feel the need to feel socially redeemed by being reminded it can happen.  I can't forget it did.

It is one of the reasons comparisons to Hitler usually make me angry.

I don't suppose I could convince many to shift to Joseph McCarthy instead?

I am rather surprised we have heard only some comparisons to him.  I would have thought he was the go to image for Trump, but maybe he is too faded into history.

 

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It really does take a whole course on Germany in the 20s and 30s to be able to piece together how the Holocaust was allowed to happen.  I took one and it was the most eye opening but horrendous course I ever had to take.  I encourage everyone to take one if you live near a university that offers one .  But be warned.  There's  a reason my university offered mental health options to those who took it.  4 months of in depth reading of primary Holocaust sources is brutal.

But I do agree with what you are saying. My issue is the whole "boy who cried wolf"  phenomenon. 

How many irrational comparisons to Hitler do you think it takes before people stop listening?  Probably not that many. 

That's one reason I think willy/nilly Hitler comparisons are irresponsible.   It dulls people ability to notice the real thing when it comes along.

I haven't gotten to that book yet.

As I mentioned, I"m reading Mein Kampf now. And Inside the Third Reich by Albert Spier.

I've read The Nuremberg Trials. Fortunately, I was able to finish that some months before I had the opportunity to visit Dachau last summer while traveling with the Tabernacle Choir on their Central Europe tour.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

are they upholding their mother's grave? or the constitution? i get what you mean but traditions can be goofy 

So can some objections to traditions, obviously.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Their is a Greg Trimble blog post, "A Huge Thank you to each Motab singer who has decided to stay and sing"?-I think that's the title, is this holier then thou? http://www.gregtrimble.com/a-huge-thank-you-to-each-motab-singer-who-has-decided-to-stay-and-sing/

I'd say no.

It makes a lot of sense, in fact.

Thanks for the link.

[Duncan]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

No timetable, then?

Very well.

For the next four years, on January 20, I will revisit this matter in a post on this board. Each year, I will evaluate whether, in accordance with the dire predictions of this thread, any of the following have occurred:

-- The Trump administration has begun to wage aggressive and global warfare.

-- The Trump administration has begun the forced deportation of thousands of innocent civilians, including citizens.

-- The Trump administration has begun to practice genocide on inhabitants of this country and of other countries that it seizes as a result of number 1 above.

-- Pursuant to the above, the Trump administration has begun the operation of relocation, concentration and death camps.

-- The Trump administration has begun the systematic persecution and slaughter of millions of people based on race and/or ethnicity.

I think it's fair to say that if none of the above has happened by the fourth year, we could safely say that the dire predictions here about Trump becoming like Adolph Hitler will have failed.

on point one-did you see what Trump recently tweeted about North Korea and nuclear weapons coming to America, "won't happen"? what does he mean by that? 

on point two-we got a family from Utah in Sept, from So. Utah, it's not forced but schooling here vs. in the US at this time, not an option for them. Check this out https://www.utoronto.ca/news/after-trump-win-surge-visits-u-t-web-site-american-international-students

on point three-in Indiana women who have a miscarriage or abortion have to pay for it and have a burial, I highly doubt that's going away with the Trump/Pence duo. They weren't seized but who had any idea Indiana was stuck in the 1700's?

on point four-"lock her up" and "because you'd be in jail" he says things he doesn't mean but will he try to lock up his opponents that he recently tweeted as "enemies"? I doubt it but why elect a man who says stuff but has no intention of following through? they elected a demagogue. What are Trump's thoughts about Mexicans? 

trump has started the rhetoric about persecution, Steve Bannon, Richard Spencer, "Hail Trump" time will tell if he slaughters people, I doubt it but who can tell

You went to Dachau and trash like this is supported? gobsmacking to no end-I can't even, Has America lost it's memory about WW2? they support this?  it's your country

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Duncan

[strappinglad]

I have to keep telling myself that MTC stands for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir not the Missionary Training Center where I was taught scriptures and a foreign language. I am sooooo old !

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Sky said:

I applaud Jan Chamberlin for standing up for her convictions!  President Hinckley always told us to stand for something, and that's what I see her doing here.  I wouldn't sing for Trump, either.  Trump has demonstrated his bigotry and ignorance and ill-preparedness for the job over and over again. It's there for all with eyes to see!  Time to say enough is enough!  I won't sing for this wicked man.  Do what is right, let the consequences follow...

From what I can tell, nobody here is really objecting to her mere refusal to sing at the inauguration. It's the grandstanding via social media, thereby inciting attacks on the choir and the Church, plus the over-the-top remarks about "throwing roses to Hitler" -- reflecting negatively on the choir and its leadership -- that have bothered some of us. The line between conscience and vindictiveness is thus blurred.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

are they upholding their mother's grave? or the constitution? i get what you mean but traditions can be goofy 

That is why they exist as traditions.  No one would do them if they had to take time and think them out rather than just walking into them full blown.  You start thinking about the whys and wherefores of a tradition rather than just accepting it for what it is and it disappears generally speaking.  Not a bad idea in some cases, but traditions help us feel grounded, let us know that we belong and without them our lives can become adrift and lose meaning.  It is a shame when we figure out something is a good thing for us only by dissecting it because then we can't 'pretend' the ideal is within it anymore.  Look what has happened to Christmas and weddings as traditions have lost importance in themselves and it has all shifted to what someone wants materialistically (a wedding ceremony is a fairy tale, a dream come true more often based on appearance now than on meanings and the experience of having gone through the runway show doesn't help us in the dark times of our relationships...temple and other religious traditions are valuable there).

Traditions give weight and authority.  Again sometimes a good thing, sometimes a bad.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

I have to keep telling myself that MTC stands for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir not the Missionary Training Center where I was taught scriptures and a foreign language. I am sooooo old !

I've always been pretty intuitive about the meaning of abbreviations, but even I think they are overused in social media and on message boards. It can be distracting if one has to pause even for a moment to figure something out.

If one needs a shortened from, better to use the colloquialism "MoTabs" than "MTC," say I.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, Duncan said:

on point one-did you see what Trump recently tweeted about North Korea and nuclear weapons coming to America, "won't happen"? what does he mean by that? 

on point two-we got a family from Utah in Sept, from So. Utah, it's not forced but schooling here vs. in the US at this time, not an option for them. Check this out https://www.utoronto.ca/news/after-trump-win-surge-visits-u-t-web-site-american-international-students

on point three-in Indiana women who have a miscarriage or abortion have to pay for it and have a burial, I highly doubt that's going away with the Trump/Pence duo. They weren't seized but who had any idea Indiana was stuck in the 1700's?

on point four-"lock her up" and "because you'd be in jail" he says things he doesn't mean but will he try to lock up his opponents that he recently tweeted as "enemies"? I doubt it but why elect a man who says stuff but has no intention of following through? they elected a demagogue. What are Trump's thoughts about Mexicans? 

trump has started the rhetoric about persecution, time will tell if he slaughters people, I doubt it but who can tell

So this is the strongest you have thus far? Color me underwhelmed.

Edited to add:

Calm has already expressed this, but the primary thing I detest about ignorant and inapt comparisons to Hitler and the Holocaust is that they trivilaize the actual events and the suffering of the millions who were victimized by the Hitler regime.

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Or we could consider for comparison Tricky **** Nixon.  His Vice President, Attorney General, chiefs of staff (the dobermans, Ehrlichman & Haldeman), counsel, and many others, all went to Federal Prison.  Nixon had to resign in order to keep from being impeached:  We don't send our presidents to prison, even when they deserve it.

Who around Trump has gone to prison?  I am aware of legal stuff he has been involved in (lots of sites like to summarize those), haven't spent much time finding out about the people around him.

[Duncan]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

So this is the strongest you have thus far? Color me underwhelmed.

Edited to add:

Calm has already expressed this, but the primary thing I detest about ignorant and inapt comparisons to Hitler and the Holocaust is that they trivilaize the actual events and the suffering of the millions who were victimized by the Hitler regime.

 

My dad lived through WW2 as a German, his uncle was jailed by Hitler, I get the actual experience all to well and we don't want any repeats. I hope you aren't saying any of this stuff is acceptable? because it isn't. I HOPE nothing bad happens, I HOPE, but it isn't looking good thus far and he hasn't even taken office yet