The MoTab Choir Performing at the Inauguration: Politicized?

[Jude2]

10 hours ago, Nevo said:

I think both letters are unfortunate in a way. While "feelings are true" and people need an outlet for expressing them, I wish more people would resist the urge to shout everything from the housetops. I support Sister Chamberlin's decision to resign from the MTC rather than sing for Trump but I don't think she should have made her resignation letter public (even though I think the publicity generated by the letter is ultimately positive for the Church). Certainly, posting it to her Facebook page does leave her open to charges of grandstanding.

 

She didn't have to resign, see there are more members than will go. Each member puts their name into a box if they wish to go, then their names are pulled out one by one. If their name is not chosen they don't go. There are times when a member has other plans like an operation or a wedding and so they choose to not put their name into the box. Sister Chamberlin was free to not to go. She has taken her letter down so I can't quote it but this is from the Washington times

“I simply cannot continue with the recent turn of events,” she wrote. “I could never look myself in the mirror again with self respect.”Ms. Chamberlin said the choir’s reputation will be “severely damaged” by appearing to endorse a president who represents “tyranny” and “fascism.” She compared President-elect Trump to Adolf Hitler and warned her fellow choir members that “history is repeating itself.”“I believe hereafter our message will not be believed by many that have loved us and adored what we have stood for,” she wrote. “I know that I too feel betrayed.”

Betrayed by who, the Church? Someone back there mentioned this is a mission calling so she resigned her mission over her political views, it's the other way around she betrayed the Church.

I won't say she betrayed  the Lord that is a point for her own conscious, He alone can read her heart and mind and I think she had good intentions. However I read this passage yesterday from D&C 1

  10 Unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.

She measured Trump to Hitler, I've wondered if she's thought of that? The really sad thing is a calling to the Choir is for only 5 years and she would have been released soon anyway. 

Now am I as guilty  as she is in my rather public measuring of her ......mmm?  I do feel the need to stand up to put down these ridiculous comparisons to Hitler.  My sister in law feels much the same as she does and I've never said a word to her, just keeping peace in the family. However she also is not a member of the choir, she has never tried to publicly shame the Church or other members of the Church into believing her political views the way Chamberlin  did. I also have never heard her compare Trump to Hitler. If she did I would tell her she's going a little to far. 

I do think Sis Chamberlin is suffering from  TBS or Trump derangement syndrome. There is a fun ob-ed in the Los  Angeles Times describing the symptoms of the epidemic. It says victims lose all sense of proportion as in comparing Trump to Hitler.  The article quotes  Even McMullin as calling Trump a "kleptocratic authoritarian who wants to operate outside of the bounds of the law...."  that kind of stuff is just silly. 

The article says “as TDS progress the afflicted lose the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality” I know it said in fun but I think that is true. The suffers immerse themselves in hearing only one side of any argument and surround themselves with like minded people to the point that they refuse to even think that they might be a minority. I believe Sis Chamberlin had no concept of what kind of backlash she was going to receive, she thought the rest of the choir would follow her lead. 

The article goes on to say “In the advanced stages of the disease, the afflicted lose touch with reality …. Life resembles a dark fairy tale in which the villain -Trump- is an amalgam of all the worst tyrants in history …., while the heroes -Trump’s critics- are akin to resistance fighters of World War II"  

 Now I feel sorry for Sister Chamberlin but that description fits her to a T.  She got so caught up in her one sided view of the world and the hysteria of the moment she literally resigned her opportunity of a life time to sing with the Choir, I'm just trying to do her a favor and bring her back to reality. 

 

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-raimondo-trump-derangement-syndrome-20161226-story.html

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Jude2

[Sleeper Cell]

19 hours ago, Duncan said:

I don't know who attends these things  [presidential inaugurals], Carter, Johnson, schwartz or Flintstone

Then, perhaps you ought to find out before you criticize others for participating. 

 As Smac and others have repeatedly pointed out, the inaugural is basically  “about celebrating the peaceful transition of power from one political group to another.”  True, there are always partisan celebratory aspects, but it is quite possible to participate in the non partisan aspects, without participating in the other. Which explains why outgoing presidents traditionally attend the inaugurals of their successors, even if that successor has just defeated them. 

The constitutionally required presidential oath of office is traditionally administered by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. -- even though the constitution does not require the oath to be administered by a judge. If you really feel that Trump is remotely comparable to Hitler or the dictator of N. Korea,  wouldn’t it make more sense to protest the Chief Justice’s participation?  After all, you believe that he is going to administer the oath to “uphold, preserve, and defend the Constitution”  to someone whom he  knows (or should know) is going to do everything possible to destroy it.   

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Using social and economic malaise to scapegoat entire groups of people for the country's problems, that's a similarity (and irresponsible and dangerous in and of itself.)

It might be, but it does not make someone comparable to Hitler. 

We've had presidents in the past who have had immigrant policies that kept out groups of people (the immigration act of 1924 banned African and Asian immigrants, for example) and none of those presidents became Hitler (or even came close). 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, Jude2 said:

 

She didn't have to resign, see there are more members than will go. Each member puts their name into a box if they wish to go, then their names are pulled out one by one. If their name is not chosen they don't go. There are times when a member has other plans like an operation or a wedding and so they choose to not put their name into the box. Sister Chamberlin was free to not to go. She has taken her letter down so I can't quote it but this is from the Washington times

 

I wasn't aware she had taken the letter down. Any indication when and why?

[thesometimesaint]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I know that's a widespread perception, exacerbated on social media by scores of immature, leftist, "social justice warriors" who refuse to accept the results of a duly conducted election.

But in the aftermath of the campaign, I've taken occasion to re-examine this issue by watching YouTube videos of election coverage and what not, and, apart from the intemperate and belligerent language to which Trump seems to be prone, I'm starting to believe what he did on this matter was not much worse than calling for immigration reform with much more stringent vetting of those who are allowed within our borders so as to hinder other countries from exporting their criminal element to us. We can argue all day about the politics pertaining to this, but I refuse to believe it makes Trump a Nazi.

But in any case, that seems outside the purview of this thread, which, as I understand it, is to discuss the unprecedented politicizing of the Tabernacle Choir's decidedly apolitical acceptance of an invitation to perform at a presidential inauguration as it has done on six past occasions.

Trump won't accept the election if Hillary wins.

SEE http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/presidential-debate.html

I've never said he was a NAZI, but his core supporters are. If you have to go back 50+ years to find a Democratic Inauguration Ceremony in which the MTC sang. You don't know what non-partisan is.  “In February 1974, Apostle Ezra Taft Benson was asked during an interview if a good Mormon could also be a liberal Democrat. Benson pessimistically replied: ‘'I think it would be very hard if he was living the gospel and understood it.’
 

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wasn't aware she had taken the letter down. Any indication when and why?

If I had to guess, it's probably because she's getting a lot of flak for it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If I had to guess, it's probably because she's getting a lot of flak for it. 

Perhaps.

But I just did a Facebook search and noticed that she has a link on her page to the change.org petition against the choir performance. So from that, she doesn't seem too awfully regretful.

[Sleeper Cell]

8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Trump won't accept the election if Hillary wins.

SEE http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/presidential-debate.html

I've never said he was a NAZI, but his core supporters are. If you have to go back 50+ years to find a Democratic Inauguration Ceremony in which the MTC sang. You don't know what non-partisan is.  “In February 1974, Apostle Ezra Taft Benson was asked during an interview if a good Mormon could also be a liberal Democrat. Benson pessimistically replied: ‘'I think it would be very hard if he was living the gospel and understood it.’

CFR that Trump’s core supporters are Nazis.  

TSS, this sort of hateful rhetoric is beneath you.  You are better than this.

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I did.

Read it again.  It already contains a response.  Pay special attention to the words which are underlined and in bold in case you missed it.

I know you can do it.  HINT: She goes well beyond simply expressing her doubts and concerns, but boldly declares that she on standing on the moral high ground.  The choir, the church, is throwing roses at Hitler ala Trump.

Edited January 2, 2017 by cdowis

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Trump won't accept the election if Hillary wins.

SEE http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/politics/presidential-debate.html

 

Old news. And you've distorted it. The headline said he wouldn't say whether he would accept the election, not that he wouldn't accept it.

 

And what's with the present tense? The election is over, and Hillary lost.

Quote

I've never said he was a NAZI, but his core supporters are.

This is bull. Kellyanne Conway said he has never met such supporters, never sought or accepted any endorsement from such groups. Guilt by association is irrational.

Quote

If you have to go back 50+ years to find a Democratic Inauguration Ceremony in which the MTC sang. You don't know what non-partisan is. 

More bull. And I have already addressed this from you. The choir would just as readily accept an invitation from a president who was a Democrat as they did any of the other inauguraitons.

Neither the Tabernacle Choir nor the Church is to blame if past Democratic Party members have not been broadminded enough to invite the choir to perform at a presidential inauguration. What do you expect the choir to do? Show up uninvited and crash the party? This notion of blaming the Church or the choir for not being invited at past inaugurations is so utterly absurd it is beneath the dignity of serious consideration.

Quote

“In February 1974, Apostle Ezra Taft Benson was asked during an interview if a good Mormon could also be a liberal Democrat. Benson pessimistically replied: ‘'I think it would be very hard if he was living the gospel and understood it.’

Old news, and a cherry picked quote. The Church as an institution has never endorsed this sentiment. On the contrary, it has said just the opposite on numerous occasions. It says just the opposite every election year in a statement that is read from meetinghouse pulpits.

For someone who claims not to be partisan, you certainly act partisan.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps.

But I just did a Facebook search and noticed that she has a link on her page to the change.org petition against the choir performance. So from that, she doesn't seem too awfully regretful.

That's different though (and I don't think it's about regret for her beliefs but more regret that she published them in Facebook for everyone to comment on). It's a way to broadcast your beliefs without inviting anger.

Think of the letter Jude2 said she wrote to her. You won't get that kind of a letter with a link to a petition.  You very likely will not get personal threats with a link to a petition. I bet she's gotten a lot of both with her Facebook post though. 

People are crazy. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's different though (and I don't think it's about regret for her beliefs but more regret that she published them in Facebook for everyone to comment on). It's a way to broadcast your beliefs without inviting anger.

Think of the letter Jude2 said she wrote to her. You won't get that kind of a letter with a link to a petition.  You very likely will not get personal threats with a link to a petition. I bet she's gotten a lot of both with her Facebook post though. 

People are crazy. 

Good points.

And in any event I don't know how easy it is to take down a link on Facebook. Maybe it is. I don't know enough about Facebook to say.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

All things considered, it is not self-evident that Trump has done this, though I know that's the party line among political leftists, Hollywood elite, "social justice warriors" and other members of the "never Trump" movement.

But assuming arguendo that this is what he did, I don't see that you can call it unprecedented. How about the "Occupy Wall Street" movement? Or Hillary Clinton's "basket of deplorables"? Or both sides blaming the news media?

Or, going back into history, the viciously anti-Mormon rhetoric of politicians during the early-Utah period of Church history?

Blaming problems on groups of people seems to be part-and-parcel of politics.

 

 

I am convinced by his own statements that he has done this. His thirty minute response to the Orlando shooting is an example. 

Listen to it, doublespeak included.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

Read it again.  It already contains a response.  Pay special attention to the words which are underlined and in bold in case you missed it.

I know you can do it.  HINT: She goes well beyond simply expressing her doubts and concerns, but boldly declares that she on standing on the moral high ground.  The choir, the church, is throwing roses at Hitler ala Trump.

Part of what you bolded was the article's words and not her own. She feels she cannot do it bc to her it would be akin to throwing roses at Hitler.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It might be, but it does not make someone comparable to Hitler. 

We've had presidents in the past who have had immigrant policies that kept out groups of people (the immigration act of 1924 banned African and Asian immigrants, for example) and none of those presidents became Hitler (or even came close). 

 

I am not saying Trump is Hitler or that he'll commit genocide, but I do think that him scapegoating Mexicans and Muslims, for example, is the kind of sickness that facilitates evil. Furthermore, the authoritarian way he speaks combined with his ignorance and denial of facts are other behaviours that facilitate collective evil.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

. If you have to go back 50+ years to find a Democratic Inauguration Ceremony in which the MTC sang. You don't know what non-partisan is. 

 

If it was the Choir who turned down the invitation, you might have a point.  The Choir does not have control over who invites them.

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I am not saying Trump is Hitler or that he'll commit genocide, but I do think that him scapegoating Mexicans and Muslims, for example, is the kind of sickness that facilitates evil. Furthermore, the authoritarian way he speaks combined with his ignorance and denial of facts are other behaviours that facilitate collective evil.

But that is what Chamberlain said, and you used a quote about immigration to support her assertion. 

Besides that though, all sin and immoral behavior facilitates evil.  There are probably less than 1% of all world politicians that don't actively facilitate evil in multiple ways.  In that respect there is no reason, at this time, to single out Trump as being more dangerous than past presidents.  

I do not like him, and he might deserve more harsh descriptors in the future, but at this point it is irresponsible for people to try to compare him to Hitler. 

[bsjkki]

She makes Carol Costello from CNN look like a moderate. http://www.mediaite.com/online/cnn-anchor-questions-if-former-tabernacle-choir-member-comparing-trump-to-hitler-is-hysterical/ 

[Meadowchik]

58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But that is what Chamberlain said, and you used a quote about immigration to support her assertion. 

Besides that though, all sin and immoral behavior facilitates evil.  There are probably less than 1% of all world politicians that don't actively facilitate evil in multiple ways.  In that respect there is no reason, at this time, to single out Trump as being more dangerous than past presidents.  

I do not like him, and he might deserve more harsh descriptors in the future, but at this point it is irresponsible for people to try to compare him to Hitler. 

I cannot second guess why Chamberlain herself made the comparison, but I can draw comparisons that have concerned me, independently of this controversy with the MTC.

I disagree about the danger of Trump. He's the worst major party nominee in living memory, what makes him so is cause for great alarm. Everyone should be checking him and pressuring at every turn. If he turns out to do some good, it won't be because people put blind faith in him, it will be because of people who say his current character is inadequate, it will be because people pressure him to be a better man, NOT because people believe his pandering.

If Trump continues like he has behaved so far, he will bring shame to the office. I hope he steps up, but I have no reason to believe he will so I raise my objections.

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Then, perhaps you ought to find out before you criticize others for participating. 

 As Smac and others have repeatedly pointed out, the inaugural is basically  “about celebrating the peaceful transition of power from one political group to another.”  True, there are always partisan celebratory aspects, but it is quite possible to participate in the non partisan aspects, without participating in the other. Which explains why outgoing presidents traditionally attend the inaugurals of their successors, even if that successor has just defeated them. 

The constitutionally required presidential oath of office is traditionally administered by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. -- even though the constitution does not require the oath to be administered by a judge. If you really feel that Trump is remotely comparable to Hitler or the dictator of N. Korea,  wouldn’t it make more sense to protest the Chief Justice’s participation?  After all, you believe that he is going to administer the oath to “uphold, preserve, and defend the Constitution”  to someone whom he  knows (or should know) is going to do everything possible to destroy it.   

Do you honestly think the transfer from Obama to Trump has been peaceful? we'll see what former PUSA show up to this. If the President is sworn to uphold the constitution why does he swear by the bible? I think a politically neutral Church, anybody actually believe that???? When the choir finishes singing should they leave?  as I say before too why doesn't the KKK sing, they have the robes for it. I think they should not attend and shouldn't be surprised at any of the backlash

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I cannot second guess why Chamberlain herself made the comparison, but I can draw comparisons that have concerned me, independently of this controversy with the MTC.

I disagree about the danger of Trump. He's the worst major party nominee in living memory, what makes him so is cause for great alarm. Everyone should be checking him and pressuring at every turn. If he turns out to do some good, it won't be because people put blind faith in him, it will be because of people who say his current character is inadequate, it will be because people pressure him to be a better man, NOT because people believe his pandering.

If Trump continues like he has behaved so far, he will bring shame to the office. I hope he steps up, but I have no reason to believe he will so I raise my objections.

Like I said, I do not like the man. But do you have any actions you can share that make you so concerned about him?  Not things he's said, but things he's done. 

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

Like I said, I do not like the man. But do you have any actions you can share that make you so concerned about him?  Not things he's said, but things he's done. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-s-worst-offense-mocking-disabled-reporter-poll-finds-n627736

 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-s-worst-offense-mocking-disabled-reporter-poll-finds-n627736

 

I agree, that was completely immature of him.  It was horrible.  I would put that into the "what he's said" category at this point but it's a good example of what an idiot he has been.

But if it's a sign that he's comparable to Hitler and we should fear him then the majority of the world is just as dangerous and we are all doomed. 

 

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

I agree, that was completely immature of him.  It was horrible.  I would put that into the "what he's said" category at this point but it's a good example of what an idiot he has been.

But if it's a sign that he's comparable to Hitler and we should fear him then the majority of the world is just as dangerous and we are all doomed. 

 

I would have linked to his appearance on a dirty magazine but i'm avoiding immorality I think we are all doomed, which is why i just bought a TON of popcorn form Costco, just watch hahahhaha! I didn't put up a pic of him wearing a striped purple tie but ugh,ugh,ugh,ugh what a fashion travesty

[Meadowchik]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like I said, I do not like the man. But do you have any actions you can share that make you so concerned about him?  Not things he's said, but things he's done. 

There are plenty: his business dealings, in myriad ways, his family infidelities, his use of government to bulldoze private individuals for his gain, his treatment of women, his cabinet appointments, his choice to run for POTUS while being very ignorant of US government and the Constitution,  his choice to run apparently without having a suitable way to eliminate conflicts of interest....

But I would not underestimate the importance of his speech....as POTUS a big part of his influence is as a talking head, a communicator.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Meadowchik