The MoTab Choir Performing at the Inauguration: Politicized?

[Duncan]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Fortunately you don't get to make that decision. Such insularity is directly contrary to the teachings of the prophets and the apostles, who have taught that we should make our influence for good felt in the public sphere even as the Church as an institution maintains neutrality with respect to partisan politics. The Church leaders are not about to retreat from that position now, and as for me, I cast my lot with the prophets. 

how does the Church influence in the public sphere but remain neutral? isn't any influence a position on an issue? or are you saying as individuals, which the MTC and the official Church aren't, we should influence the public(which I am trying to do)-I too cast my lots with the prophets, but what they are saying not what I think they said or what someone else said they said 

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

Are they allowed to perform at other events where a president or prime minister or any politician may appear?

only if they are given snacks sure, but I dunno, an inauguration or swearing in ceremony seems too big for a supposedly politically neutral church and is being seen as an endorsement

[Bernard Gui]

36 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Bill was publicly impeached. There is no evidence that Hillary was involved with his sexual affairs. Last I looked Hillary wasn't on the ballot.

Indeeed you have not been paying attention. 

[cdowis]

On 12/30/2016 at 8:09 PM, Nevo said:

I was disappointed—but not really surprised—to see the choir accept the invitation to sing at Donald Trump's inauguration. I think it tarnishes them and the Church by association. ....

This isn't a partisan stance; it's a moral one.

Just curious. Nevo.  And if Hillary had won?  

Would the MTC have tarnished themselves by accepting the invitation by their association with that person.   Or is this indeed partisan outrage.

Edited January 1, 2017 by cdowis

[Sleeper Cell]

23 hours ago, Duncan said:

1) if missionary work is the prime aim for this it isn't working and is creating a mess. On one board people think our Church is the Waco Texas group but reborn...I don't see the great service but people are seeing this as a sign that the Church supports Trump, else if you didn't why would you go? if the Church is politically neutral why is it singing at any US President thing? Why not other countries? How would you feel if they were invited to sing for the North Korean guy?

2) why write an article in a Church owned publication under "our opinion" saying he should resign and things and now say well, the Church nothing to do with it but also say the Church has no say, why write an article about Trump in the first place, who is the "our" in our opinion?

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865664336/In-our-opinion-Donald-Trump-should-resign-his-candidacy.html

 

I would suggest that the Eric Hawkins quotation needs to be front and centre, him saying it isn't an endorsement, well, unless I'm losing my mind I don't see it on the Church website. I wonder why Obama and Clinton hadn't asked them to perform? hmmmmmmmmmmmm, what a mystery! The Church for some reason leans to Republican ideals, not sure if it has always. I hope they wouldn't have refused an invite but I don't know one way or the other.

“On one board, people think that our Church is the Waco Texas group,. but reborn”

And they accuse Trump of bigotry?  Frankly, I don’t think that such people would have been likely to join the church, anyway.  

 

“I don’t see the great service, but people are seeing this as a sign that the Church supports Trump, else if you didn’t’, why would you go?”

Do you really believe that political campaigns should be never ending?  That non-stop political vitriol is healthy?   (Even Trump has dropped his “crooked-Hillary” rhetoric.)  Why would you go if you didn’t support the incoming president?  Traditionally, the outgoing president goes to his successors inauguration, regardless of party.  If memory serves, didn’t Bush Sr. attend the inaugural of Jimmy Carter -- they guy who had just defeated him?      

 

2) "why write an article in a Church owned publication under "our opinion" saying he should resign and things and now say well, the Church nothing to do with it but also say the Church has no say, why write an article about Trump in the first place, who is the "our" in our opinion? ...I would suggest that the Eric Hawkins quotation needs to be front and centre, him saying it isn't an endorsement, well, unless I'm losing my mind I don't see it on the Church website."

So you would have been OK with the MTC appearance, had the  Hawkins quotation been put on the Church website?  

 

 “I wonder why Obama and Clinton hadn't asked them to perform? hmmmmmmmmmmmm, what a mystery! The Church for some reason leans to Republican ideals, not sure if it has always. I hope they wouldn't have refused an invite but I don't know one way or the other.”

Perhaps their failure to invite the MTC  is a “sign” that Obama and Clinton are bigoted against the LDS church.  And that the Democratic party is anti-Mormon.  (Warning: “MTC hysteria” can be contagious).   

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

only if they are given snacks sure, but I dunno, an inauguration or swearing in ceremony seems too big for a supposedly politically neutral church and is being seen as an endorsement

Okay, I accept that as a valid POV though I don't see it that way.

[Duncan]

Just now, Sleeper Cell said:

“On one board, people think that our Church is the Waco Texas group,. but reborn”

And they accuse Trump of bigotry?  Frankly, I don’t think that such people would have been likely to join the church, anyway.  

 

“I don’t see the great service, but people are seeing this as a sign that the Church supports Trump, else if you didn’t’, why would you go?”

Do you really believe that political campaigns should be never ending?  That non-stop political vitriol is healthy?   (Even Trump has dropped his “crooked-Hillary” rhetoric.)  Why would you go if you didn’t support the incoming president?  Traditionally, the outgoing president goes to his successors inauguration, regardless of party.  If memory serves, didn’t Bush Sr. attend the inaugural of Jimmy Carter -- they guy who had just defeated him?      

 

2) "why write an article in a Church owned publication under "our opinion" saying he should resign and things and now say well, the Church nothing to do with it but also say the Church has no say, why write an article about Trump in the first place, who is the "our" in our opinion? ...I would suggest that the Eric Hawkins quotation needs to be front and centre, him saying it isn't an endorsement, well, unless I'm losing my mind I don't see it on the Church website."

So you would have been OK with the MTC appearance, had the  Hawkins quotation been put on the Church website?  

 

 “I wonder why Obama and Clinton hadn't asked them to perform? hmmmmmmmmmmmm, what a mystery! The Church for some reason leans to Republican ideals, not sure if it has always. I hope they wouldn't have refused an invite but I don't know one way or the other.”

Perhaps their failure to invite the MTC  is a “sign” that Obama and Clinton are bigoted against the LDS church.  And that the Democratic party is anti-Mormon.  (Warning: “MTC hysteria” can be contagious).   

1) I just wonder what will happen when Trump gets in and says what he says and does what he does, hopefully we'll be wrong but time will tell. Someone at church mentioned that they thy 3 things will happen to Trump, 1) Assasination, 2) he'll lose interest in it or, 3) he'll be impeached. I don't know who attends these things, Carter, Johnson, schwartz or Flintstone

2) if the Church is really, truly not supporting any President, but neutral, and just simply singing at the inauguration then they should put the Hawkins quotation up on the official site, because the world seems to think that the Church and Trump go hand in hand

I don't know if Obama or Clinton have ever said anything about the Church, I know that Obama was given his family history but what he said I don't know. Now that Trump is the guy any bigotry real or not is past, do you know what Trump has said about us?

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Some are welcome to stop. BTW It is the increase of CO2 that is the problem.

If one thinks that CO2 is a problem.  I am sort of liking the warming temps.

[Jude2]

Well this is, My open letter to Sister Chamberlin, I posted it on Yahoo and face book, don’t know if she’ll see it. 

Sister Chamberlin,

Singing in the Choir is a privilege and being gifted with a voice worthy of it is a great blessing indeed, something I will never be able to do. My vocal cords have been damaged because of a chemical reaction.  I would give anything to be able to sing once again. 

I’m having a hard time controlling my righteous indignations. To be blunt your holier than thou attitude is sickening and shameful. You could have quietly declined to go  but you have put yourself above all of the other members of the choir and  the church. It’s called being arrogant.  

I believe Sister  Chamberlin that you need to apologies first to the other 360 members of the Choir and the Church for making this very political statement. The Church has always stated neutral but you have chosen to come out publicly with this horrendous comparison of President Trump to Hitler. 

Hitler killed 6 million Jews, thousands of Gays, Gypsies, mentally ill and the handicapped. Over 400,000 American  servicemen gave their lives to fight that monster. Over 60 million people were either killed or died from starvation.

 Comparing Donald Trump to Hitler is trivializing their agony and spiting in the face of all those who suffered and died at Hitler’s hands. You also spit on this great privilege which God gave you to sing in the Choir.

Okay you don’t like his politics but you don’t have some special connection to the Holy Spirit above others, your "conscience" isn’t better or more clear than any other church member. Thousands of other Mormons prayed also, we listened to what Trump was saying and not what the media was saying.  Maybe we did not agree with everything he had to say but a lot of it was right on! We looked at his family and saw his greatest achievement, wicked men do not raise such a family. He obeys the Word of Wisdom, he doesn’t drink, smoke or do drugs. He also never assaulted anyone, those are the things a drunk man does and he does not drink. Note how they all just disappeared, those women were lying!  He attends Church regularly and yes underneath all that boisterous noise he really is a humble man. He is a man who appreciates the common working men and women and their hands on skills.  He has taken all of his success and thanked the American people, he knows he could not have done it without them. 

I don’t think you know what fascism is. Here’s the definition; A dictatorial movement; any movement, ideology or attitude that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism

Well he loves America, that’s his only hint at being a fascist  and God bless him! 

He wants to decentralize the government by sending a great deal of the decision making back to the States as the founding fathers intended.  He wants to take the dictatorial controls of government regulations off  private enterprise so that businesses can grow and people can get back to work. When banks have more lawyers helping them stay within the regulations than they do loan officers then something is upside down. Perhaps you don’t know that the real unemployment rate is 9%.  Obamacare is dictatorial government, regulations written by non elected bureaucrats is dictatorial and fascism!   

Like it or not Trump will be the next president and instead of sitting in your own self made judgment seat you should be praying for him and those he is choosing to help him lead. You should be asking the Lord to guide him in the many decisions he must make each day. 

Now I’m sorry for being so blunt but someone has to let you know how angry you have made the majority of your fellow church members. Oh some will pat you on the back but most of those sitting around you in sacrament meetings and Sunday school will be quietly angry. 

Nancy Brown 

[Duncan]

Just now, Jude2 said:

Well this is, My open letter to Sister Chamberlin, I posted it on Yahoo and face book, don’t know if she’ll see it. 

Sister Chamberlin,

Singing in the Choir is a privilege and being gifted with a voice worthy of it is a great blessing indeed, something I will never be able to do. My vocal cords have been damaged because of a chemical reaction.  I would give anything to be able to sing once again. 

I’m having a hard time controlling my righteous indignations. To be blunt your holier than thou attitude is sickening and shameful. You could have quietly declined to go  but you have put yourself above all of the other members of the choir and  the church. It’s called being arrogant.  

I believe Sister  Chamberlin that you need to apologies first to the other 360 members of the Choir and the Church for making this very political statement. The Church has always stated neutral but you have chosen to come out publicly with this horrendous comparison of President Trump to Hitler. 

Hitler killed 6 million Jews, thousands of Gays, Gypsies, mentally ill and the handicapped. Over 400,000 American  servicemen gave their lives to fight that monster. Over 60 million people were either killed or died from starvation.

 Comparing Donald Trump to Hitler is trivializing their agony and spiting in the face of all those who suffered and died at Hitler’s hands. You also spit on this great privilege which God gave you to sing in the Choir.

Okay you don’t like his politics but you don’t have some special connection to the Holy Spirit above others, your "conscience" isn’t better or more clear than any other church member. Thousands of other Mormons prayed also, we listened to what Trump was saying and not what the media was saying.  Maybe we did not agree with everything he had to say but a lot of it was right on! We looked at his family and saw his greatest achievement, wicked men do not raise such a family. He obeys the Word of Wisdom, he doesn’t drink, smoke or do drugs. He also never assaulted anyone, those are the things a drunk man does and he does not drink. Note how they all just disappeared, those women were lying!  He attends Church regularly and yes underneath all that boisterous noise he really is a humble man. He is a man who appreciates the common working men and women and their hands on skills.  He has taken all of his success and thanked the American people, he knows he could not have done it without them. 

I don’t think you know what fascism is. Here’s the definition; A dictatorial movement; any movement, ideology or attitude that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism

Well he loves America, that’s his only hint at being a fascist  and God bless him! 

He wants to decentralize the government by sending a great deal of the decision making back to the States as the founding fathers intended.  He wants to take the dictatorial controls of government regulations off  private enterprise so that businesses can grow and people can get back to work. When banks have more lawyers helping them stay within the regulations than they do loan officers then something is upside down. Perhaps you don’t know that the real unemployment rate is 9%.  Obamacare is dictatorial government, regulations written by non elected bureaucrats is dictatorial and fascism!   

Like it or not Trump will be the next president and instead of sitting in your own self made judgment seat you should be praying for him and those he is choosing to help him lead. You should be asking the Lord to guide him in the many decisions he must make each day. 

Now I’m sorry for being so blunt but someone has to let you know how angry you have made the majority of your fellow church members. Oh some will pat you on the back but most of those sitting around you in sacrament meetings and Sunday school will be quietly angry. 

Nancy Brown 

I disagree with most of this of this but it's okay

[Nevo]

 

1 hour ago, Jude2 said:

Well this is, My open letter to Sister Chamberlin, I posted it on Yahoo and face book, don’t know if she’ll see it.

Hopefully not. This letter does you no credit. But I know how good it can feel to vent your spleen, so I hope you feel better now. It is disheartening, though, to see how Satan uses political differences to turn the Saints against each other. Talk about bringing enmity. 

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I read that Hillary had had several abortions earlier in their marriage but they had opted to carry one pregnancy to full term because they thought having a child would help Bill's political career. 

Now, I find that at least as unsavory as anything I've heard that Trump has said or done. But I still wouldn't have objected had the choir agreed to perform at her inauguration if she had won.

Again, it's not about endorsing the individual, it's about honoring and supporting the nation. 

False equivalencies are so tempting, but are so bereft of critical thinking.  Worse, the partisan divide is nowhere more stark than in Utah.  Too bipolar.  Often  makes real interchange and dialogue difficult at best.  And sometimes chauvinism, flag-waving, and rumors just don't cover over the stark differences of fact.  Finally, what should make all the nonsense so dangerous is that it distracts from the actual threats -- leaving us erroneously valuing abortion over Glass-Steagall, and Benghazi over Rwanda, losing all sense of proportion or balance in the process.  We will pay a very high price for not getting it right.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Are they allowed to perform at other events where a president or prime minister or any politician may appear?

This won't be the only inauguration this month at which the Tabernacle Choir performs. They will perform at the inauguration of Utah Gov. Gary R. Herbert on Jan. 4, as they have done at past gubernatorial inaugurations in Utah.

Would our complainers here forbid the choir from performing at the governor's inauguration as well? Future such inaugurations? Or is it only presidential inaugurations that are giving them heartburn?

In other words, how insular would they have the Church be as it pertains to government?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False equivalencies are so tempting, but are so bereft of critical thinking. 

So are histrionics devoid of rationality -- such as equating Donald Trump with Adolf Hitler.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

 

Hopefully not. This letter does you no credit. But I know how good it can feel to vent your spleen, so I hope you feel better now. It is disheartening, though, to see how Satan uses political differences to turn the Saints against each other. Talk about bringing enmity. 

Yes, Sister Chamberlin's letter is indeed unfortunate.

Oh, wait, you were talking about Nancy Brown's letter.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False equivalencies are so tempting, but are so bereft of critical thinking.  Worse, the partisan divide is nowhere more stark than in Utah.  Too bipolar.  Often  makes real interchange and dialogue difficult at best.  And sometimes chauvinism, flag-waving, and rumors just don't cover over the stark differences of fact.  Finally, what should make all the nonsense so dangerous is that it distracts from the actual threats -- leaving us erroneously valuing abortion over Glass-Steagall, and Benghazi over Rwanda, losing all sense of proportion or balance in the process.  We will pay a very high price for not getting it right.

Political divide starkest in Utah? Try being a conservative in western Washington. There is only a monologue here. 

The judge and jury haven't even been selected for Trump yet. Why not give it few months at least before calling for the guilty verdict?

Edited January 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Nevo]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, Sister Chamberlin's letter is indeed unfortunate.

Oh, wait, you were talking about Nancy Brown's letter.

I think both letters are unfortunate in a way. While "feelings are true" and people need an outlet for expressing them, I wish more people would resist the urge to shout everything from the housetops. I support Sister Chamberlin's decision to resign from the MTC rather than sing for Trump but I don't think she should have made her resignation letter public (even though I think the publicity generated by the letter is ultimately positive for the Church). Certainly, posting it to her Facebook page does leave her open to charges of grandstanding.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Nevo said:

I think both letters are unfortunate in a way. While "feelings are true" and people need an outlet for expressing them, I wish more people would resist the urge to shout everything from the housetops. I support Sister Chamberlin's decision to resign from the MTC rather than sing for Trump but I don't think she should have made her resignation letter public (even though I think the publicity generated by the letter is ultimately positive for the Church). Certainly, posting it to her Facebook page does leave her open to charges of grandstanding.

So you and I don't have much of a quarrel on this, then.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So are histrionics devoid of rationality -- such as equating Donald Trump with Adolf Hitler.

Reductio ad hitlerum.

"You folks may want to shine Hitler's boots, but I won't." 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If one thinks that CO2 is a problem.  I am sort of liking the warming temps.

No hurricanes, fewer tornados. Not all bad.

[Bernard Gui]

Accepting an invitation could possibly be seen as a political statement,

but rejecting an invitation could only be seen as a political statement.

 

Now, if I were in an orchestra invited to perform for an inauguration, the first question I would ask is, "Will there be food?" 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Accepting an invitation could possibly be seen as a political statement,

but rejecting an invitation could only be seen as a political statement.

 

 

You've conveyed in two pithy lines the message I tried to with less finesse in several lines a few posts ago.

Stop it. You're making me mad.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Reductio ad hitlerum.

"You folks may want to shine Hitler's boots, but I won't." 

 

I was about to congratulate you on a clever coinage. Then I looked it up and realized it is not a coinage.

Still, I'm glad there is a recognized expression for something so clearly displayed in these threads.

 

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Accepting an invitation could possibly be seen as a political statement,

but rejecting an invitation could only be seen as a political statement.

 

Now, if I were in an orchestra invited to perform for an inauguration, the first question I would ask is, "Will there be food?" 

Just make sure they have a foreign tour scheduled every four years at this time in the future.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This won't be the only inauguration this month at which the Tabernacle Choir performs. They will perform at the inauguration of Utah Gov. Gary R. Herbert on Jan. 4, as they have done at past gubernatorial inaugurations in Utah.

Would our complainers here forbid the choir from performing at the governor's inauguration as well? Future such inaugurations? Or is it only presidential inaugurations that are giving them heartburn?

In other words, how insular would they have the Church be as it pertains to government?

 

I doubt though the Utah Governor's thing is world news. In my paper here, the lady's letter hit the press! I could care less if they performed for the Utah person because Utah politics, is who cares! Would you be upset if they were asked to sing for the leader of the KKK or North Korea leader's birthday party? does the choir have standards?!