The MoTab Choir Performing at the Inauguration: Politicized?

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

My dad lived through WW2 as a German, his uncle was jailed by Hitler, I get the actual experience all to well and we don't want any repeats. I hope you aren't saying any of this stuff is acceptable? because it isn't. I HOPE nothing bad happens, I HOPE, but it isn't looking good thus far and he hasn't even taken office yet

What I'm doing is objecting to irrational comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany when they are nowhere near justified.

At its heart it's a matter of civility, something that is in disturbingly short supply these days.

[Bobbieaware]

41 minutes ago, Duncan said:

on point one-did you see what Trump recently tweeted about North Korea and nuclear weapons coming to America, "won't happen"? what does he mean by that? 

on point two-we got a family from Utah in Sept, from So. Utah, it's not forced but schooling here vs. in the US at this time, not an option for them. Check this out https://www.utoronto.ca/news/after-trump-win-surge-visits-u-t-web-site-american-international-students

on point three-in Indiana women who have a miscarriage or abortion have to pay for it and have a burial, I highly doubt that's going away with the Trump/Pence duo. They weren't seized but who had any idea Indiana was stuck in the 1700's?

on point four-"lock her up" and "because you'd be in jail" he says things he doesn't mean but will he try to lock up his opponents that he recently tweeted as "enemies"? I doubt it but why elect a man who says stuff but has no intention of following through? they elected a demagogue. What are Trump's thoughts about Mexicans? 

trump has started the rhetoric about persecution, Steve Bannon, Richard Spencer, "Hail Trump" time will tell if he slaughters people, I doubt it but who can tell

You went to Dachau and trash like this is supported? gobsmacking to no end-I can't even, Has America lost it's memory about WW2? they support this?  it's your country

 

So here we have "guilt by endorsement" from people and organizations you have disavowed and with whom you want nothing to do?  And why is it that no one in the mainstream media ever mentions that radicals and radical organizations on the other side of the political spectrum endorsed Trump's main opponent? It's undeniable that the Communist Party USA endorsed Trumps opponent, and their endorsement WAS NOT DISAVOWED BY TRUMP's OPPONENT. Yes, the endorsement of the Commumists was not disavowed even though the fanatical adherents to Communism have murdered upwards of 100 million people, while simultaneously brutally reigning in totalitarian/anti-religious horror). Does the fact that Trumps main opponent was endorsed by the communists mean that she believes in totalitarianism, state-enforced atheism and the mass murder of tens of millions of innocent freedom-loving people? Fair is fair. Why is it that only those on the political right are expected to renounce and disavow the radicals who endorse them, while those on the political left are not expected to renounce and disavow the radicals who endorse them?

Edited January 3, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Danzo said:

I think trump seems more like Silvio Berlusconi than like Hitler.  I wonder if the choir ever sang for Berlusconi?

Never heard of the man until this moment, but I looked up and scanned his Wikipedia entry, and yes, the comparison seems apt.

[Duncan]

Just now, Bobbieaware said:

So here we have guilt by endorsement from people and organizations you have disavowed and with whom you want nothing to do?  And why is it that no one in the mainstream media ever mentions that radicals and radical organizations on the other side of the political spectrum endorsed Trump's main opponent? It's undeniable that the Communist Party USA endorsed Trumps opponent, and their endorsement WAS NOT DISAVOWED BY TRUMP's OPPONENT. Yes, the endorsement of the Commumists was not disavowed even though the fanatical adherents to Communism have murdered upwards of 100 million people, while simultaneously brutally reigning in totalitarian/anti-religious horror). Does the fact that Trumps main opponent was endorsed by the communists mean that she believes in totalitarianism, state-enforced atheism and the mass murder of tens of millions of innocent freedom-loving people? Fair is fair. Why is it that only those on the political right are expected to renounce and disavow the radicals who endorse them, while those on the political left are not expected to renounce and disavow the radicals who endorse them?

Did Hillary win? no, is Steve Bannon and his gang of thugs now in the White House? yes. 

[Calm]

Personally I don't know why one has to compare stuff to Hitler.  Just describing the reality works for me.  If something is bad, it is bad whether Hitler did it as well or not.

I would get its use as a warning of what was to come (which is how Sister Chamberlin uses it sort of, imo, in her list of Trump's bad behaviours...finding a scapegoat, drumming up fears about the scapegoat, etc) if people didn't ignore other similar cases and went to the effort to demonstrate why Trump or whoever else gets the label likely belongs to the genocidal tyrant class unlike the others who did much the same of the lesser evils, but never took the steps that made Hitler the ultimate evil of our culture.

[Bobbieaware]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

Did Hillary win? no, is Steve Bannon and his gang of thugs now in the White House? yes. 

Apparently, you totally missed my point. I'll try again: Does the fact that she was endorsed by two of the main leaders of the Black Lives Matter organization mean she endorses everything that organization stands for?

[Duncan]

Just now, Bobbieaware said:

Apparently, you totally missed my point. I'll try again: Does the fact that she was endorsed by two of the main leaders of the Black Lives Matter organization mean she endorses everything that organization stands for?

what does it matter, she didn't win. I don't want to veer off of a discussion of MTC to BLM

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Never heard of the man until this moment, but I looked up and scanned his Wikipedia entry, and yes, the comparison seems apt.

Not a bad comparison, both in private, business, and public life from the Wiki entry.  I am hoping Trump doesn't manage to stay around for nine years....

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what does it matter, she didn't win.

If endorsements matter to the character of the person, then they matter no matter what. (I think there is a significant difference between the KKK though and BLM, but I understand BA was using them as an example, not an equivalency...in essence if someone endorses me, does that mean I endorse them in any position they take automatically and only by publicly denouncing them invalidate an endorsement?)

If you want to keep it to the MoTabs...let us pretend the group reads this board and the official Choir website writes about how wonderful I am.  Does that mean that unless I announce I really don't enjoy listening to their patriotic albums, everyone should assume I adore them?

I don't think endorsement is a mutual association, even in politics.  Lots of people want to pretend they are hitched on a wagon they aren't even wanted to push out of a ditch for.

Added the below, so not sure I deserve the rep point still.

OTOH, I do think when it comes to politics, one should be vocal about not endorsing or wanting the endorsement of extreme groups...but not groups that may have extreme members as that would pretty much include them all.  Also vocal about not approving of violence and should never make jokes or serious comments that hint at endorsing violence.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Calm

[Bobbieaware]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

what does it matter, she didn't win. I don't want to veer off of a discussion of MTC to BLM

You're the one who brought up the fact that the kooks in the video you linked endorsed Trump and you did so in an attempt to unfairly assert that Trump must believe as they do because the kooks endorsed him. 

You mention Steve Bannon. Please show me a single quote from him that demonstrates he thinks like a Nazi or is sympathetic to Nazism? 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

Off to bed. If there are any further responses, I will answer them tomorrow. Good night...

 

[strappinglad]

The point is, HAD she won, I sincerely doubt that most if any of the media would be calling her Stalin or Mao just because she was endorsed by known communists. Make no mistake ( to quote somebody ) , I have no fondness for Trump, but I think the Republic can withstand his presence. And unlike Germany in the 20s and 30's , America has a deep dislike of authoritarian rule, .... and ...  which amendment was that again ?

[Duncan]

Just now, Bobbieaware said:

You're the one who brought up the fact that the kooks in the video you linked endorsed Trump and you did so in an attempt to unfairly assert that Trump must believe as they do because the kooks endorsed him. 

You mention Steve Bannon. Please show me a single quote from him that demonstrates he thinks like a Nazi or is sympathetic to Nazism? 

gladly and very sadly

https://www.romper.com/p/7-steve-bannon-quotes-on-race-that-are-seriously-concerning-22875

Edited January 3, 2017 by Duncan

[Calm]

Not impressed with the accuracy of your site:

"remember that African Americans weren't even allowed to vote until just a few decades ago"

I see "4" as stretching "few" (according to the dictionary, "two or three", so this would mean even very generously that Blacks were not allowed to vote until 1965.

Not impressed with the first quote, he was trashing progressives, not saying no racism.

Not impressed by Bannon first off, but I find that site lacks credibility based on their inaccurate paraphrasing of what he said to ramp up his racist views as expressed significantly.

For example, he didn't say racism didn't exist, he said systematic racism didn't exist.  His example of blacks who were in positions of governmental power implies to me he is claiming it isn't everywhere in everything.  

And if he is so antisemitic as they claim, they shouldn't be relying on a money quote from an exwife he had a bitter custody fight with.

He may be wrong and is racist in my view, but at least slam him for what he gets wrong, don't make things up.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've had to study past presidents, and sadly, this explains a lot of them.  If you take out the "no political experience" part it explains most of them (the ones I've studied. I haven't studied them all by far). 

What I think a lot of people are reacting to with Trump is that he hasn't hid any of this much, whereas past career politicians that were elected did. They see him as someone so frightening because they are unaware how he is similar to some past presidents.

In my opinion, Trump isn't that dangerous.  The American public, who is so good at reacting on purely emotional levels with very little accurate information or knowledge and who immediately ramp every disagreement or fear to "Hitler" levels regardless of how baseless the comparison is, is dangerous.

Emotional, ignorant majorities are dangerous.

Any person can become dangerous with that kind of backing so that's what I'm worried about.   

 

 

Yes, other presidents have had faults that Trump has, but I think you won't find one who had as many combined as he does.

Indeed, the wave of emotion and ignorance, including anti-intellectualism, that he's riding is disturbing. But he did help create it, too. Don't forget Trump was the shiny star of the Birther Movement. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You're not going to allow for the possibility that you and others are misunderstanding him, then.

Misunderstanding what? I'm taking him at face value, in his own words and actions. If he maintains his status quo, it won't be good.

If Trump has misrepresented himself for the worse, and he continues to do so (as I premised) then we have the same bad result.

This isn't about Trump's core being or judging that or condemning him eternally, it is about his conduct and the good or ill it generates.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

It really does take a whole course on Germany in the 20s and 30s to be able to piece together how the Holocaust was allowed to happen.  I took one and it was the most eye opening but horrendous course I ever had to take.  I encourage everyone to take one if you live near a university that offers one .  But be warned.  There's  a reason my university offered mental health options to those who took it.  4 months of in depth reading of primary Holocaust sources is brutal.

But I do agree with what you are saying. My issue is the whole "boy who cried wolf"  phenomenon. 

How many irrational comparisons to Hitler do you think it takes before people stop listening?  Probably not that many. 

That's one reason I think willy/nilly Hitler comparisons are irresponsible.   It dulls people ability to notice the real thing when it comes along.

That's the problem with crying wolf, it could be a tiger.

When drawing comparisons we have to say why. And we cannot assume that similarities in conditions will generate similar results.

I agree about the danger of comparing to Hitler, even if the comparison is warranted. The focus should be on the bad things which are true this time and why they are bad all in their own, because we cannot waste too much time expecting a wolf when it could be a tiger. We have to be wary and careful.

 

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What I'm doing is objecting to irrational comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany when they are nowhere near justified.

At its heart it's a matter of civility, something that is in disturbingly short supply these days.

What do you call focusing on objections to Hitler references rather than addressing the real problem?

Argumentum ad reductio ad Hitlerum?

Btw,  reductio ad hitlerum is the fallacy of equating someone to Hitler because of a similarity in views, not every Hitler comparison is that simple. 

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

It really does take a whole course on Germany in the 20s and 30s to be able to piece together how the Holocaust was allowed to happen.  I took one and it was the most eye opening but horrendous course I ever had to take.  I encourage everyone to take one if you live near a university that offers one .  But be warned.  There's  a reason my university offered mental health options to those who took it.  4 months of in depth reading of primary Holocaust sources is brutal.

But I do agree with what you are saying. My issue is the whole "boy who cried wolf"  phenomenon. 

How many irrational comparisons to Hitler do you think it takes before people stop listening?  Probably not that many. 

That's one reason I think willy/nilly Hitler comparisons are irresponsible.   It dulls people ability to notice the real thing when it comes along.

Our neighbor on one side was picked up by the Germans to dig foxholes when he was 14.  Without moving house, he later served his military service for France.  The neighbors on the other side of us host a bunker built by the village in the backyard because it gave a good view of the road, and we're near the entry of the village.  Outside, right off the sidewalk, there is a cross with Mary and Jesus memorialising the approximate point where a civilian was shot when the Germans rode in. I've been living in Europe for eight years and we're surrounded by reminders.

Interestingly enough, a California high school teacher in the 1970s did a sort of impromptu experiencial "lesson" with his students about how the Nazi fervor came to be.  In effect, he basically started a group of students unknowingly mimicking the groupthink not unlike Hitler youth.  When it was getting out of hand, he unveiled the truth and many received a shock of how they had come close to those types of behaviors.  You can watch videos and documentaries on it, searching "Lesson Plan," "The Third Wave," and "Ron Jones."  It's eye-opening.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Meadowchik

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Misunderstanding what? I'm taking him at face value, in his own words and actions. If he maintains his status quo, it won't be good.

If Trump has misrepresented himself for the worse, and he continues to do so (as I premised) then we have the same bad result.

This isn't about Trump's core being or judging that or condemning him eternally, it is about his conduct and the good or ill it generates.

Even taking his comments at their most literal and applying the least charitable interpretation to them, Trump is no Hitler. And to bring it back to the topic of this thread, Sister Chamberlin has been intemperate in her speech and behavior -- a thing she charges Trump with -- and compounding that, she has included the choir and its leadership in the broad sweep of her contempt and is thereby bringing them into public disrepute. 

[Bobbieaware]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

gladly and very sadly

https://www.romper.com/p/7-steve-bannon-quotes-on-race-that-are-seriously-concerning-22875

These quotes are evidence Bannon is Pro-Nazi? I'm sure his enemies scoured every source and looked high and low for any quote to substantiate the claim he's a white nationalist and Pro-Nazi and this is the best they could come up with? Not even close. If you are willing, please copy and paste one Bannon quote at a time (at least one of them is not a quote but hearsay) and demonstrate how each quote validates the charge Bannon has a pro-Nazi frame of mind?

Let ma ask you a question: As I happen ,to live in the New York City area, would you consider me to be anti-Jewish if I said it annoys me that most of the Jews in the area where I live continue to enthusiastically support President Obama, even though he caused the US delegation to the UN to fail to veto the recent UN resolution that many believe has now placed the nation of Israel in such great jeopardy?

 

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

are they upholding their mother's grave? or the constitution? i get what you mean but traditions can be goofy 

They're our traditions though. Americans shouldn't go off on Canada's goofy traditions because we don't really understand them and also because they are irrelevant to us. 

Canadians shouldn't go off on America's goofy traditions for the same reasons.  

Edited January 3, 2017 by bluebell

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Even taking his comments at their most literal and applying the least charitable interpretation to them, Trump is no Hitler. And to bring it back to the topic of this thread, Sister Chamberlin has been intemperate in her speech and behavior -- a thing she charges Trump with -- and compounding that, she has included the choir and its leadership in the broad sweep of her contempt and is thereby bringing them into public disrepute. 

CFR with direct quotes, please.

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Our neighbor on one side was picked up by the Germans to dig foxholes when he was 14.  Without moving house, he later served his military service for France.  The neighbors on the other side of us host a bunker built by the village in the backyard because it gave a good view of the road, and we're near the entry of the village.  Outside, right off the sidewalk, there is a cross with Mary and Jesus memorialising the approximate point where a civilian was shot when the Germans rode in. I've been living in Europe for eight years and we're surrounded by reminders.

Interestingly enough, a California high school teacher in the 1970s did a sort of impromptu experiencial "lesson" with his students about how the Nazi fervor came to be.  In effect, he basically started a group of students unknowingly mimicking the groupthink not unlike Hitler youth.  When it was getting out of hand, he unveiled the truth and many received a shock of how they had come close to those types of behaviors.  You can watch videos and documentaries on it, searching "Lesson Plan," "The Third Wave," and "Ron Jones."  It's eye-opening.

Reminders aren't enough to understand how it all went down. I'm sure it's fascinating to be surrounded by so much history though!

My favorite experiment on group think (the one that I think is most interesting) is the Stanford Prison Experiment.  

The Milgrim Experiment using electric shock is also really interesting, though I see that some scientists are starting to question Milgrim's conclusions.

Group think is always dangerous, and certainly you don't need an evil Hitler figure to bring it about.  Lord of the Flies is probably the best example.

 

[Duncan]

Just now, Bobbieaware said:

These quotes are evidence Bannon is Pro-Nazi? I'm sure his enemies scoured every source and looked high and low for any quote to substantiate the claim he's a white nationalist and Pro-Nazi and this is the best they could come up with? Not even close. If you are willing, please copy and paste one Bannon quote at a time (at least one of them is not a quote but hearsay) and demonstrate how each quote validates the charge Bannon has a pro-Nazi frame of mind?

Let ma ask you a question: As I happen ,to live in the New York City area, would you consider me to be anti-Jewish if I said it annoys me that most of the Jews in the area where I live continue to enthusiastically support President Obama, even though he caused the US delegation to the UN to fail to veto the recent UN resolution that many believe has now placed the nation of Israel in such great jeopardy?

 

his brietbart website? take a look at that prize.Where this smoke and all, I highly doubt everyone is lying against this guy. The guy is trouble all over the place and the American people fought a war over people like him and now they let him in the White House-appropriately named of course.................... I don't know anything about the UN/US relations so I can't speak to that