When Has Being Prepared Become A Bad Thing?

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

Just for the record, Corrie's sister Betsie (they were Dutch, BTW) did not survive the war, but Corrie did.

I know.  Betsy's story is so awesome, especially the things she taught as she was dying.  Have you read the book?  It's amazing.

Thanks for correcting Poland to Dutch!

Edited December 1, 2016 by bluebell

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

From my point of view, while I am required to take care of my own children until they are grown, I see no reason I do not have a moral responsibility to do the same for any needy child that I can help.  There is a limit due to accessibility (the ones who need my help are not local or I have no legal control over the situation and can be prevented or even sued by others if I attempted to help out, such as offering shelter to a runaway.  Given in the US the government assumes guardianship of those without parents and dictates who can do what, there is not much more that I can do than I have done in the past (tutoring, home room, taken in teens and a few kids while parents get their act together or relatives are found.

In a situation where there is no government and children were abandoned....assuming I am still alive and functioning (which is a big assumption), I don't see any difference between my children and abandoned children.  I am obligated by the law of charity and by the fact that they are my family as much as my own children to care for them to the best of my ability, even if the only thing I can provide is being there so they are not alone as we starve together.

I don't believe teaching my children they have a greater right to live than someone else is the best way to teach that the ultimate goal is to be one with God.  If we refuse to be one because our stomachs are empty and we want them filled, how can we tell God exaltation and being with him is the most important desire of our hearts?

I know my daughter would prefer to share rather than be protected while others suffer.  I don't believe she fears death, neither do I or my husband.  I think there are wonderful things to come and while rushing into it shows disrespect for this life, I see no reason to inflate the value of the here and now over the next one, either for myself or my children.  I will have to ask my son now he has kids what he values most.

I do think these kinds of issues get much easier as our children get older.  I think it would be much easier to starve to death (for a greater cause) with my 14 year old than my two year old.  One would have some agency in the choice (to share resources) and would understand the very real suffering and pain they were experiencing better than the other.

[Marmonboy]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Remember when leaders of the church wrongly asked the handcart companies to just have "faith", even though they were sorely underprepared for winter conditions.  That didn't work out so well for them as a whole.  

Those who fail to follow the prophets counsel to prepare have no promise of divided loaves and fishes.  No amount of faith can save those who neglect decades of prophetic counsel and only turn to God in a moment of "oh crap, they weren't kidding!"

Going back to Katrina, there were people who had followed the prophet's counsel and had food storage--and lost it all. Do they have any right to ask the Lord to divvy up the loaves and fishes, or are they doomed to starve due to some event beyond their control? I myself am living mostly on food storage due to prolonged underemployment. If something happens, am I shafted because I already used my food storage for its intended purpose?

[pogi]

This is becoming increasingly difficult to respond to everyone's posts, so I'm sorry if I don't respond to you directly.  I can see why it may seem less "celestial" of me to turn a starving person away.  Anyone who knows me well, knows that I am a very giving and charitable person.  I am profoundly empathetic to suffering in this world.  I am well acquainted with hunger and suffering.  I once had a family give me of their children's dinner while their hungry children sat and watched me, a healthy rich American, eat their dinner.  They watched intently with smiles on their faces.  It was a heart wrenching experience.  I was profoundly touched, but at the same time, I was profoundly confused and filled with deep guilt as I ate with my hands and sat on the dirt floor of their small bamboo hut.  I sat and ate their white rice mixed with powdered milk in front of their two hungry children.  It was a very surreal and awkward experience.  I didn't know that it was possible to feel so much love, anger, and guilt all at the same time, and yet I was expected to respect their culture if I wanted to return to their home to teach them the gospel.  I will never forget that experience, it taught me a lot about charity and hospitality.  My experiences in the Philippines was life changing in terms of understanding what the rest of the world lives like.

To be continued...

Time to go home!

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, pogi said:

Thanks for the clarification.  I see what you are saying and I admire anyone who is willing to lay down his life for his brother, but again, if it will not ultimately do any good, then isn't it better to at least preserve your own family's life?  These are not easy decisions and I cannot imagine having to be put in that situation, but from my perspective, if sharing my food means the death of my family.  I do have to say that I take exception to the implication that by protecting my family I would somehow be neglecting my "Christian values".  I feel that my Christian values require me to care for my family first.  I would say in my heart, "I have just enough to preserve my family's life...but if I had, I would give".  I am not a big fan of guns either, I don't plan on buying one.  My family has a fairly remote cabin that I will try to get to if God forbid anything like this ever happens, where we can hopefully avoid any confrontation.

Although I have to say, I would not restrain from defending my family if it came to that point.  If people were willing to kill us by taking our food by force, I feel that I would be justified to defend my family in such a scenario.  I align my views with Captain Moroni who "did not delight in the shedding of blood", but was not afraid to do so in defense of their wives, children, and the cause of liberty.

 

 

As I said in my previous post I DON"T HAVE ANY CHILDREN. I have no family. I have siblings and parents, none belong to the church. I would not eat your food if it was the last food on the face of the earth. I live on a sailboat, I have wind and solar generators, I have a watermaker that makes 6 gallons per hour fresh water from saltwater. It will run indefinitely on my wind and solar panels.When anarchy comes to town I will simply unplug and leave. I will share with anyone I come across that needs my help I don't care what religion, color, sexual persuasion, creed,or what political party they belong to I will help them to the best of my ability.

 

I will repeat Psalms 37:3. with some added verses.

 3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

  4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

  5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

  6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

[sunstoned]

22 hours ago, Rain said:

No, but food bought on sale and when prices are lower goes longer than money spent on food now. The price of wheat went up steeply just before my husband lost his job. I bought cases of canned food for less than half price a number of months before he lost the job as well.

Now there is always something on sale any time of the year, but it isn't necessarily something you want to be eating for a couple of months.  

You bring up some good points.  If you can get a deal, buy it up.  I have tried to do this over the years, and while I don't have a real food storage plan, we always seem to have about a month or two of food in our basement.   

One thing that I feel strongly about is having a 72 hours kit.  I call it my get out of Dodge bag, because it is something you could grab and take with you if you had to leave in a hurry.  My has water, water purification pump, food (power bars), medical, money, rain gear and light jacket, rope, knife, fire making supplies, etc.  It is about 35 pounds.

[Calm]

We had that up to two years ago and then Dad dumping their stuff on us to store (for the two of them for the first move and then a month later getting everything else they had as Mom moved alone  into a furnished place with little storage and didn't want anything at first) got it shoved back and behind, and stuff got spread to the four corners of the black hole that is my clutter room.  Hoping that with a few more weeks of energy, I will have finished finally  the double purge and we can figure out what to do with the stuff we are keeping.

I think I will get three large soft side cases on wheels to replace what is now an overlarge container since our docs have limited how much we should be picking up, so not quite as convenient but an emergency is a bad time for a torn muscle or scars getting ripped or stretched or whatever they told me might happen while Iwas too doped up to remember, lol.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Calm

[pogi]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

This is becoming increasingly difficult to respond to everyone's posts, so I'm sorry if I don't respond to you directly.  I can see why it may seem less "celestial" of me to turn a starving person away.  Anyone who knows me well, knows that I am a very giving and charitable person.  I am profoundly empathetic to suffering in this world.  I am well acquainted with hunger and suffering.  I once had a family give me of their children's dinner while their hungry children sat and watched me, a healthy rich American, eat their dinner.  They watched intently with smiles on their faces.  It was a heart wrenching experience.  I was profoundly touched, but at the same time, I was profoundly confused and filled with deep guilt as I ate with my hands and sat on the dirt floor of their small bamboo hut.  I sat and ate their white rice mixed with powdered milk in front of their two hungry children.  It was a very surreal and awkward experience.  I didn't know that it was possible to feel so much love, anger, and guilt all at the same time, and yet I was expected to respect their culture if I wanted to return to their home to teach them the gospel.  I will never forget that experience, it taught me a lot about charity and hospitality.  My experiences in the Philippines was life changing in terms of understanding what the rest of the world lives like.

To be continued...

part II...

I would see little kids running around naked with these huge bellies, I couldn't understand how they were so fat when they had so little.  It wasn't until nursing school several years later that I learned about kwashiorkor disease, which is caused by malnutrition.  The large belly is from edema due to the lack of protein in their diet.  These kids were not fat due to overeating, they were fat with fluid from malnourishment.

My point is that I have seen hunger and malnourishment first hand.  It exists all over the world, and yes even in America.  Sure, I could donate 100% of my income, and possibly even save some lives in service to those who are hungry, or sick, or needy.  Am I selfish, or do I lack "faith" in the fact that "charity never faileth"?  Not even the prophets, seers, and revelators have reached that level of perfection. 

Those who say that there is nothing we can do are either ignorant or apathetic.  American's suffer from a terrible condition called affluenza, an epidemic of overconsumption.  The disparity is sickening quite honestly.  I am very aware of suffering and am very passionate about doing what I can (within reason) to alleviate it, that is why I became a nurse and I also donate of my time and money to worthy causes.  But there is a limit to what I can and will give.  We are not required to run faster than we have strength.

I hear lots of heroism here, but nobody is making such incredible sacrifices right now when the opportunity is available all around you.  Let me tell you why you are not making such incredible sacrifices right now, because it would be incredibly foolish, and reckless to do so.  Nobody in their right mind would kill their own child to feed and extend the life of lots of hungry children for a few days.  That is absurd!  That is biologically and spiritually insane!  Sure, I could sell all that I have and use that money to feed as many people as I can right now, or I could pay for the heart transplant or cancer treatment of dying children in Africa.  Yes, people will die because I choose not give all that I have and let my child go hungry and starve to death.  That is the reality and the choice that you all are making everyday, whether you realize it or not.  Perhaps it is easier to reject someone that is not at your doorstep asking for food, but you are all still rejecting them and letting them go hungry, even as we speak.  The only difference is, you can't see them.  That is the point I have been trying to make.  

My time in the Philippines opened my eyes to the realities of life and the vast disparity.  It has made me a minimalist, I cannot in good conscience live like most Americans and most Mormons.  I think consumerism is out of control to the point of becoming evil. I am self-reliant and self-sufficient, I don't borrow money or take out loans, except for a modest 15 year mortgage.  I own one modest car and bike to work everyday (by choice - yes, even in the winter).  Why you ask?  Because I don't believe in extravagance after what I have seen.  I pay for everything with cash and I save for retirement and invest in food storage.  Instead of having lots of stuff, I am very generous with others and with worthy causes.  Most Americans, even Mormons, are the opposite of me.  They buy the biggest house they can, even if the bishop has to pay their mortgage, they have the latest $900 cell phone and yet eat with food stamps, they have a house full of expensive stuff and nothing to show for it.  They drive expensive cars and are indebt up to their ears.  They don't have a lick of savings or food storage for their family and instead spend their money recklessly and thoughtlessly, while others are starving all around them - and I am the selfish one?

My child is a miracle, a gift from God that I cherish above all other gifts.  For nearly 10 years we have unsuccessfully tried for children, but 3 months ago my son was born for some inexplicable reason.  He was born with albinism and all indications suggest that he is likely going to be legally blind, or close to.  He needs me.  I am his advocate in this life.  I am his father and provider and my sacred obligation and duty is to protect my child and give him at least the basics of love, food, and shelter.  I do not take this gift and this duty lightly, and I will cherish it forever.  To give my child's life to feed a few more people for a few days would be unconscionable in my mind.  He has given me a pearl of great price, and I cannot exchange it for something else without seriously offending God.   

I will fight for my sons life, and I will turn away any person who comes to my door and selfishly asks me for my child's food.  I will say (in my head anyway) "you have made your choice and you have dug your grave.  You have lived your life lavishly while others were starving all around you.  You neglected the prophets counsel and instead chose to live in debt excessively, and now you selfishly turn to me who has lived a life of modesty so that I can better care for the needy and prepared for my family, and now you want to eat my child's food.  Hell no!  I will not burry my child to feed you."

As you can tell, I am a little passionate about my boy.  Don't come to me asking for his food, you won't get it.  If I was a lone ranger on a sail boat, I would be telling a different story

 

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by pogi

[Calm]

"I hear lots of heroism here, but nobody is making such incredible sacrifices right now when the opportunity is available all around you. "

What you don't seem to get is context matters nor do you seem to take into account things you might not be aware of.  People can make incredible sacrifices that work these days through fostering and adopting, devoting weekends to charities like habitats for humanity or going overseas for their 'vacation' to help rebuilding in places like Haiti and a number of the people on the board have done so, but you may not have read where they mentioned changing their lives to make this level of sacrifice.

In everyday current life,  it makes sense to maintain a normal lifestyle because resources won't eventually be exhausted anyway or progress for the community can occur best with people combining charity with living a 'consumer' lifestyle.

In the circumstances of a disaster, that all changes.  It becomes solely about staying alive and doesn't include bettering one's life through education, careers that no longer exist, humanitarian efforts that can reach around the world.  It becomes only about subsistence living and many don't see that as necessary when we believe that the next life is wonderful for all nor do many see simply one family surviving while others die as moving the Kingdom of God forward.

Now if you phrased the discussion in a different way, so we are talking about a significantly sized community surviving so that greater changes can be made, than it is no longer just about delaying when one gets buried (or not as might happened in a disaster).

And in turning away everyone, especially children, someone will undoubtedly be turning away not only those who lived lavishly, but those who are impoverished through no fault of their own...perhaps they were away from their home when massive earthquakes occurred and buried it, leaving them without any possessions save what was in their car and on their backs, perhaps they were poor to begin with and never had the chance to build up savings and fires or looting robbed them of what little they had, perhaps they are children who were at school when the disaster hit and their families never found them.  Do these people deserve the same judgment of 'you made your grave, now lie down in it'? 

The needy you care for now won't disappear in a disaster, so could you possibly be changing your standards by treating them differently because the best you can do now has you maintaining your lifestyle because in the end that means you can give more, but in a disaster that would mean choosing to not give at all because then you could not create an excess, but only subsistence?

To me at this point it would not be a heroic choice to feed others with my family and then living then dying together...it is simply the one that makes the most sense to me, the one that would break my heart the least because I have total faith (or so it feels like now) that live or die my family will be together and by choosing to share I have only brought more of the children of God who he loves into my own circle of family love.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Calm

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

As I said in my previous post I DON"T HAVE ANY CHILDREN. I have no family. I have siblings and parents, none belong to the church. I would not eat your food if it was the last food on the face of the earth. I live on a sailboat, I have wind and solar generators, I have a watermaker that makes 6 gallons per hour fresh water from saltwater. It will run indefinitely on my wind and solar panels.When anarchy comes to town I will simply unplug and leave. I will share with anyone I come across that needs my help I don't care what religion, color, sexual persuasion, creed,or what political party they belong to I will help them to the best of my ability.

 

I will repeat Psalms 37:3. with some added verses.

 3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

  4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

  5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

  6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

But it says will dwell on the land you will be on the sea.....

YOU ARE DOOMED!

[Sleeper Cell]

On Thursday, December 01, 2016 at 11:24 AM, bluebell said:

I don't know that there's any right answer to this question.  It probably depends on the person you ask, and both sides can probably be successfully argued.  

Me personally?  I do believe that i have special obligations to my children and husband that i don't have to everyone.  I use that verse in the D&C that says that children have a right to depend on their parents to care for them and keep them safe to support my thoughts on the matter.  But I have no idea where i would draw that line in a real world situation.  It would be incredibly difficult to ever be in the situation where you had to decide whether or not to cause harm to someone else to save a loved one from harm.

As a (minimally trained) volunteer first responder, my nightmare scenario is to actually have to make this sort of triage decision among a group of strangers.  In a mass casualty situation, it may well be necessary for me to decide to not try to save someone whom I probably could have otherwise saved, had there not been so many other casualties. For example, I may be able to use CPR to save one person, but during that time, several others whom I could have saved (by spending a few minutes with each) may die.   

We are also taught to avoid putting ourselves at risk in such situations, even in order to attempt to save someone else’s life.  Not only would I be risking the lives of other victims (those whom I might have been able to save, had I not been injured or killed), but other responders may have to spend some of the time they could have used to save other victims in order to try to save me.  Fortunately, my personal cowardice will make it much easier for me to adhere to that particular protocol.      

[Sleeper Cell]

On Thursday, December 01, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Marmonboy said:

Going back to Katrina, there were people who had followed the prophet's counsel and had food storage--and lost it all. Do they have any right to ask the Lord to divvy up the loaves and fishes, or are they doomed to starve due to some event beyond their control? I myself am living mostly on food storage due to prolonged underemployment. If something happens, am I shafted because I already used my food storage for its intended purpose?

IMO, you are using your food storage for its intended purpose.

[Bernard Gui]

My emergency plan.....

Store chocolate. Lots of chocolate.

In an emergency you can trade anything for chocolate.

[Calm]

More useful than gold and takes up less room than toilet paper.  Unfortunately it will not last as long (a year and a half at best from what I am reading)...and some types don't last long at all.  Cocoa lasts three years stored properly.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

On 12/12/2016 at 1:02 PM, Calm said:

More useful than gold and takes up less room than toilet paper.  Unfortunately it will not last as long (a year and a half at best from what I am reading)...and some types don't last long at all.  Cocoa lasts three years stored properly.

Well, some might think old chocolate is better than no chocolate. It may come to the point that one cannot be picky.