When Has Being Prepared Become A Bad Thing?

[Marmonboy]

Would it really be better to keep all your food storage for yourself and family while everyone around you starves, fending off the hungry masses with your stockpile of guns and ammo, only to be the last people left in a desolated world? (Worst-case scenario, I know.) In my most depressed states of mind I have thought how welcome that would be, but in reality there wouldn't be much to live for in that case.

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is why I do not impoverish myself in that way.

Are you suggesting that there is nothing more that you can do?  There is no hunger or malnourishment in America?  It is impossible to feed those in developing countries because they all have "blockades"?  These to me sound like unreasonable excuses.  If you were to sell all that you have to feed the poor, I promise you that you could find opportunities to feed the hungry and starving.  The Lord doesn't expect you to make such sacrifices now, and he wouldn't expect you to make even greater sacrifices in the hypothetical situation we are discussing.  I stand by my point that if one is not willing to make lesser sacrifices now to feed the hungry, they will not be willing to make greater sacrifices then, when their own family is on the line.  

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

Would it really be better to keep all your food storage for yourself and family while everyone around you starves, fending off the hungry masses with your stockpile of guns and ammo, only to be the last people left in a desolated world? (Worst-case scenario, I know.) In my most depressed states of mind I have thought how welcome that would be, but in reality there wouldn't be much to live for in that case.

In your worst case scenario, I agree that it wouldn't be worth the fight, but I would have a hard time letting go of hope.  But in a long-term food shortage, there would be many who would survive such a scenario, but only those who live by the principles of self-reliance and prepared. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by pogi

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you suggesting that there is nothing more that you can do?  There is no hunger or malnourishment in America?  It is impossible to feed those in developing countries because they all have "blockades"?  These to me sound like unreasonable excuses.  If you were to sell all that you have to feed the poor, I promise you that you could find opportunities to feed the hungry and starving.  The Lord doesn't expect you to make such sacrifices now, and he wouldn't expect you to make even greater sacrifices in the hypothetical situation we are discussing.  I stand by my point that if one is not willing to make lesser sacrifices now to feed the hungry, they will not be willing to make greater sacrifices then, when their own family is on the line.  

No, there is plenty I can do. I already do a lot. I just do not believe that copious amounts of cash or food will end hunger worldwide.

Do you speak from experience on selling all you have and suddenly finding huge hordes of starving people I can suddenly save?

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, there is plenty I can do. I already do a lot. I just do not believe that copious amounts of cash or food will end hunger worldwide.

That is kind of the point I am making.

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Do you speak from experience on selling all you have and suddenly finding huge hordes of starving people I can suddenly save?

I know that severe poverty, hunger, and malnutrition is a real problem in America, and an even worse problem in developing countries.  I also know that there are few barriers to keep us from helping.

[Marmonboy]

As of today, the world grows enough food to feed everyone on the planet. The problems lie in governments that use food as a weapon, bad storage, inadequate transportation systems, and waste, Too much food is wasted by spoiling before it gets to those who need it, people who eat too much of it, people who use it to subdue the populace.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

That is kind of the point I am making.

I know that severe poverty, hunger, and malnutrition is a real problem in America, and an even worse problem in developing countries.  I also know that there are few barriers to keep us from helping.

There are lots of barriers. Much of the malnutrition problems in the United States come from uneducated parents who do not know what to feed their kids or do not realize the resources available to feed them. Money alone will not solve that problem. In many cases the resources are there but distribution is the problem.

[JarMan]

This article has some interesting observations about food storage. Not that I agree with all of them. But I do think the idea of a year's supply is outdated. It would have been helpful before the Great Depression and in Europe before WW2. Keeping food storage today is kind of like preparing for a disaster that already happened instead of the ones that are actually happening.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/07/hoarding-food-gold-will-not-help-emergency/

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

In your worst case scenario, I agree that it wouldn't be worth the fight, but I would have a hard time letting go of hope.  But in a long-term food shortage, there would be many who would survive such a scenario, but only those who live by the principles of self-reliance and prepared. 

I hate to break it to pogi but we are all going to die, sooner or later. Hope for me is to be resurrected. I used to think that I would love to be alive when Christ returns but living through all of the icky parts doesn't seem too appealing. I like to remember the verse where Christ says in Luke 17: 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I don't have any children so it's pretty easy for me to say that. I get that you would put your family first but what is surviving?

We actually had a speaker 2 Sundays ago that said (tounge in cheek) her plan was to die in the event of Armageddon. She couldn't  stand to take all of the violence and death and she had faith to be resting with God while we were all suffering.  You know what my wife always says: "If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans."

[Marmonboy]

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

This article has some interesting observations about food storage. Not that I agree with all of them. But I do think the idea of a year's supply is outdated. It would have been helpful before the Great Depression and in Europe before WW2. Keeping food storage today is kind of like preparing for a disaster that already happened instead of the ones that are actually happening.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/07/hoarding-food-gold-will-not-help-emergency/

Your link appears to be broken--at least on my cheap laptop.

[rodheadlee]

13 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

Your link appears to be broken--at least on my cheap laptop.

It worked for me.

[Marmonboy]

Yeah, it's my laptop. Works on the old PC.

What I gather from the article is that it is wise to prepare for bad things, and the best approach is to be balanced in our preparation, with the understanding that we may have to leave it all behind to run for our lives. I didn't word that very well, but I hope you get my drift. If we plan on just hunkering down with our cans of wheat, we may be sadly disappointed.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Marmonboy
I forgot something

[pogi]

16 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I hate to break it to pogi but we are all going to die, sooner or later. Hope for me is to be resurrected. I used to think that I would love to be alive when Christ returns but living through all of the icky parts doesn't seem too appealing. I like to remember the verse where Christ says in Luke 17: 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I don't have any children so it's pretty easy for me to say that. I get that you would put your family first but what is surviving?

We actually had a speaker 2 Sundays ago that said (tounge in cheek) her plan was to die in the event of Armageddon. She couldn't  stand to take all of the violence and death and she had faith to be resting with God while we were all suffering.  You know what my wife always says: "If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans."

I am probably better acquainted with death than most.  Yes, we will all die, but don't expect me to welcome a premature death if I can prevent it. My hope is also in the resurrection, but it is not limited to the resurrection.  I have much hope in this life and wish to preserve it and do all the good that I can "while it is still called today", even in the face of disaster.  I have a sacred duty and responsibility as a husband and father to provide for and preserve the life of my wife and child first and foremost (1 Tim. 5:8).  The Lord expects me to prepare to do so.  I also take the prophetic counsel to be "self-reliant in times of personal and widespread tragedy" seriously.  I love Luke 17:33, but it shouldn't be understood the way you are interpreting it.

16 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I get that you would put your family first but what is surviving?

I'm not sure what you are asking here, can you clarify?

The prophet has warned us and the Lord expects us to prepare in order to survive.  What good can we do if we choose to make our grave with the weak and unprepared?  I'm sorry but I don't understand this nonchalant attitude of "we are all going to die sooner or later", as if to say "what's the big deal?"  That attitude is not conducive to the spirit of life.  I simply refuse to let my boy starve because "we are all going to die sooner or later" anyway.  

If you fail to prepare, you have made your choice for you and your family, but don't expect me to let your poor choice corrupt the physical life of me and my family.  That is all I am saying.  For some reason that I don't understand, people here seem to think it heroic to die with the weak and unprepared when they don't have to.  It is noble to sacrifice and serve, but not when it costs your family's life and will ultimately not help.  If you choose to walk off a cliff, don't expect me to give my life and my family's life to pad your fall.    I will help where I can, but not at the expense of my family's life - I can feed more hungry people and do more good alive than dead.

 “For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord” (Rom. 14:8).  I choose to live unto the Lord, if you want to die unto the Lord, that is your choice, but don't expect me to join you when the Lord has prepared a way to live.  

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by pogi

[Sleeper Cell]

On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 10:58 PM, The Nehor said:

No, it is better to live the gospel whether it leads to life or death.

I am unaware of any gospel principle that requires us (or even permits us) to sacrifice the lives of our children, even in order to save the lives of our fellow human beings.  Obviously, there have been specific instances of the Lord commanding such a sacrifice (e.g., Abraham and Isaac), but I see no indication that these were intended to set a precedent.  

[thesometimesaint]

I was a Boy Scout so Being prepared is fine with me. But there is no way to be prepared for every contingency regardless of length.

[Sleeper Cell]

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 9:40 AM, The Nehor said:

The problem of starving people currently is not one of resources. If we wanted to feed the starving we have both the resources and the willingness. Almost no one starves in the United States or the Western world because of this. It is wonderful. There are resources available. In other areas there are institutional problems. There are government and local power groups who profit from not being able to keep their people fed. Giving up all I have will not get what I have through that blockade. This is why I do not impoverish myself in that way. I would like to believe that if God asked it of me that I would obey. Of course I have no way to be sure about that

[emphasis added]

But in most non-Western countries, at least some of what you donate will probably get to the needy.  Otherwise, why does the LDS church, Catholic charities, etc. continue to send humanitarian aid to such countries?  

 Frankly, it is much easier to say that, in the event of a possible future calamity, we would give up our lives and those of our children than to actually impoverish ourselves today -- even though we live in a country where we know we and our children will probably still not starve.

I agree with your last two sentences.  Why shouldn’t they apply equally to a mass starvation scenario in our country  -- especially when what is at stake is not merely becoming impoverished or even laying down one’s own life, but sacrificing the lives of one’s own children as well?  

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I am probably better acquainted with death than most.  Yes, we will all die, but don't expect me to welcome a premature death if I can prevent it. My hope is also in the resurrection, but it is not limited to the resurrection.  I have much hope in this life and wish to preserve it and do all the good that I can "while it is still called today", even in the face of disaster.  I have a sacred duty and responsibility as a husband and father to provide for and preserve the life of my wife and child first and foremost (1 Tim. 5:8).  The Lord expects me to prepare to do so.  I also take the prophetic counsel to be "self-reliant in times of personal and widespread tragedy" seriously.  I love Luke 17:33, but it shouldn't be understood the way you are interpreting it.

I have to admit. I wish I liked my life that much.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I was a Boy Scout so Being prepared is fine with me. But there is no way to be prepared for every contingency regardless of length.

I am building a super escape space capsule in case the sun unexpectedly runs out of fuel and becomes a red giant.

I have not figured out how to deal with a sudden supernova from the pinwheel yet but I am sure I can come up with something. Got to cover every contingency.

Does anyone know if invading giant alien space crabs are vulnerable to small arms fire?

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

I am probably better acquainted with death than most.  Yes, we will all die, but don't expect me to welcome a premature death if I can prevent it. My hope is also in the resurrection, but it is not limited to the resurrection.  I have much hope in this life and wish to preserve it and do all the good that I can "while it is still called today", even in the face of disaster.  I have a sacred duty and responsibility as a husband and father to provide for and preserve the life of my wife and child first and foremost (1 Tim. 5:8).  The Lord expects me to prepare to do so.  I also take the prophetic counsel to be "self-reliant in times of personal and widespread tragedy" seriously.  I love Luke 17:33, but it shouldn't be understood the way you are interpreting it.

I'm not sure what you are asking here, can you clarify?

The prophet has warned us and the Lord expects us to prepare in order to survive.  What good can we do if we choose to make our grave with the weak and unprepared?  I'm sorry but I don't understand this nonchalant attitude of "we are all going to die sooner or later", as if to say "what's the big deal?"  That attitude is not conducive to the spirit of life.  I simply refuse to let my boy starve because "we are all going to die sooner or later" anyway.  

If you fail to prepare, you have made your choice for you and your family, but don't expect me to let your poor choice corrupt the physical life of me and my family.  That is all I am saying.  For some reason that I don't understand, people here seem to think it heroic to die with the weak and unprepared when they don't have to.  It is noble to sacrifice and serve, but not when it costs your family's life and will ultimately not help.  If you choose to walk off a cliff, don't expect me to give my life and my family's life to pad your fall.    I will help where I can, but not at the expense of my family's life - I can feed more hungry people and do more good alive than dead.

 “For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord” (Rom. 14:8).  I choose to live unto the Lord, if you want to die unto the Lord, that is your choice, but don't expect me to join you when the Lord has prepared a way to live.  

 

I should clarify myself. Sorry communication is not my best attribute.I am also prepared to the best of my ability.What I meant by what is surviving is that I will not give up my Christian values in order to survive. I won't kill to protect my food supply, I will share with anyone that needs to have a meal until it is gone.  I choose to follow Psalms  37: 3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

I am unaware of any gospel principle that requires us (or even permits us) to sacrifice the lives of our children, even in order to save the lives of our fellow human beings.  Obviously, there have been specific instances of the Lord commanding such a sacrifice (e.g., Abraham and Isaac), but I see no indication that these were intended to set a precedent.  

Are not others as much our brothers and sisters as our children?  

[rodheadlee]

We sing Hymn 219 frequently are we blowing smoke?

Because I have been given much
I too must give
Because of thy great bounty Lord
Each day I live
I shall divide (my) gifts from thee
With every brother that I see
Who has the need of help from me

Because I have been sheltered, fed
By thy good care
I cannot see another’s lack and I not share
My glowing fire, my loaf of bread,
my roof('s) sa(fe) shelter overhead
That he to(o) may be comforted

Because I have been blessed by
thy great love dear Lord
I’ll share thy love again
According to thy word
I shall give love to those in need
I’ll show that love by word and deed
Thus shall my thanks be thanks in deed
 

Edited December 1, 2016 by rodheadlee

[sunstoned]

23 hours ago, JarMan said:

This article has some interesting observations about food storage. Not that I agree with all of them. But I do think the idea of a year's supply is outdated. It would have been helpful before the Great Depression and in Europe before WW2. Keeping food storage today is kind of like preparing for a disaster that already happened instead of the ones that are actually happening.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/07/hoarding-food-gold-will-not-help-emergency/

I believe that a 72 hours "get out of Dodge" kit is a good thing.  But I don't see the value of keeping a large supply of food on hand.  In almost all of the major disasters that have happened in the last hundred years it seems a large supply of food would have been lost in flood waters (Katrina, Sandy), or burned up in fires. In most wars, occupying armies would take the food.  This happened to people in Germany in WWII.  As far as helping out during periods of unemployment, I would rather have the money in the bank I would have spent on food storage.  That way you have options.  You can by food, and/or pay rent, etc.  Two years supply of wheat doesn't help out when you being evicted or your electricity has been turned off.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I believe that a 72 hours "get out of Dodge" kit is a good thing.  But I don't see the value of keeping a large supply of food on hand.  In almost all of the major disasters that have happened in the last hundred years it seems a large supply of food would have been lost in flood waters (Katrina, Sandy), or burned up in fires. In most wars, occupying armies would take the food.  This happened to people in Germany in WWII.  As far as helping out during periods of unemployment, I would rather have the money in the bank I would have spent on food storage.  That way you have options.  You can by food, and/or pay rent, etc.  Two years supply of wheat doesn't help out when you being evicted or your electricity has been turned off.

No, but food bought on sale and when prices are lower goes longer than money spent on food now. The price of wheat went up steeply just before my husband lost his job. I bought cases of canned food for less than half price a number of months before he lost the job as well.

Now there is always something on sale any time of the year, but it isn't necessarily something you want to be eating for a couple of months.  

[pogi]

13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I should clarify myself. Sorry communication is not my best attribute.I am also prepared to the best of my ability.What I meant by what is surviving is that I will not give up my Christian values in order to survive. I won't kill to protect my food supply, I will share with anyone that needs to have a meal until it is gone.  I choose to follow Psalms  37: 3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

Thanks for the clarification.  I see what you are saying and I admire anyone who is willing to lay down his life for his brother, but again, if it will not ultimately do any good, then isn't it better to at least preserve your own family's life?  These are not easy decisions and I cannot imagine having to be put in that situation, but from my perspective, if sharing my food means the death of my family.  I do have to say that I take exception to the implication that by protecting my family I would somehow be neglecting my "Christian values".  I feel that my Christian values require me to care for my family first.  I would say in my heart, "I have just enough to preserve my family's life...but if I had, I would give".  I am not a big fan of guns either, I don't plan on buying one.  My family has a fairly remote cabin that I will try to get to if God forbid anything like this ever happens, where we can hopefully avoid any confrontation.

Although I have to say, I would not restrain from defending my family if it came to that point.  If people were willing to kill us by taking our food by force, I feel that I would be justified to defend my family in such a scenario.  I align my views with Captain Moroni who "did not delight in the shedding of blood", but was not afraid to do so in defense of their wives, children, and the cause of liberty.

 

 

[Calm]

If people are fighting, starving, and dying around us, what Christian good do you think you will be able to accomplish in that environment?  In order to survive long term, that will mean fighting off multiple groups, not only from asking for food, but robbing any outer buildings and farming areas...because in order to survive long term, you will need to be producing food pretty quickly.  How will you be capable of guarding all your property 24/7?