When Has Being Prepared Become A Bad Thing?

[Kenngo1969]

6 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

I hope so, but I have heard from two different people, who heard this in two different states, that there is a segment of the populace who are stockpiling guns and ammo instead of food, because they plan on taking what they need from their Mormon neighbors should it come to that.

I'm not doubting that they said it or that you heard it, but, of all the groups against which one might envision using (or needing) deadly force to obtain life's necessities when in dire need, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't seem to be very high on the list.  We're commanded to lay up against a time of want to help ourselves ... and others.  As I mention above, adherence to that counsel among the Saints is uneven, and not everyone in our communities will have heard it nor heeded it, so neighborhoods and communities will, by extension, be blessed by those Saints who have heeded the counsel.

[Marmonboy]

Neither of the people who said this to me were Mormon, and the states they were in when they heard this were outside the Mormon Corridor. I don't see LDS people doing this, but a certain crimson-collared segment of society may be persuaded that pacifist Mormons have warehouses of food ripe for the plucking.

[thesometimesaint]

While peaceful I'm not a pacifist. I won't start the fight but I will end it.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Marmonboy said:

I hope so, but I have heard from two different people, who heard this in two different states, that there is a segment of the populace who are stockpiling guns and ammo instead of food, because they plan on taking what they need from their Mormon neighbors should it come to that.

Then we should stockpile guns and ammo. We cannot allow an ammo gap.

[pogi]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Without mechanized agriculture the population has to shrink. This is, of course, absent things like manna which may be what we end up needing. Having a years supply just means you die a little later.

I agree that we need to prepare. In case of disaster my plan is to take my 72 hour kit and head to my parent's house. I can hike it if I need to. I help them with their supply and have no place to store much food where I am. Then I expect we will join with the other wise virgins and share with the foolish virgins and the non-virgins (nonmembers in this tortured and forced allusion to that parable. If food stops coming in long term the food will run out very quickly and we will die having helped our fellow humans and rest with our God. Or we might get to try manna. Always wanted to try that stuff.

I am all about helping out my neighbor, my only point was that if our goal is for every family to have a year's supply, I think it unwise to suggest that we can or should rely on others in time of need.  Teaching others that the stake or ward will make up the difference in your food storage shortage is not wise counsel in my opinion.  It is the opposite teaching of self-sufficiency and will dampen any motivation to invest and work towards becoming self-sufficient.  If we believe that we don't need to be fully prepared because the community will make up the difference, then the entire community will suffer and be ill-prepared. 

I disagree that the population of a prepared community has to shrink.  We don't need "mechanized" agriculture to support a small community of saints.  That is a relatively new invention and people survived before mechanization just fine.  In fact, people survived before electricity, running water, etc. for a very long time.  With proper preparation, communities can survive a food shortage long term.  

Edited November 27, 2016 by pogi

[The Nehor]

Just now, pogi said:

I am all about helping out my neighbor, my only point was that if our goal is for every family to have a year's supply, I think it unwise to suggest that we can or should rely on others in time of need.  Teaching others that the stake or ward will make up the difference in your food storage shortage is not wise counsel in my opinion.  It is the opposite teaching of self-sufficiency and will dampen any motivation to invest and work towards becoming self-sufficient.  If we believe that we don't need to be fully prepared because the community will make up the difference, then the entire community will suffer and be ill-prepared. 

I disagree that the population of a prepared community has to shrink.  We don't need "mechanized" agriculture to support a small community of saints.  That is a relatively new invention and people survived before mechanization just fine.  In fact, people survived before electricity, running water, etc. for a very long time.  With proper preparation, communities can survive a food shortage long term.  

Sure you can. If you are in a rural area and your population is sustainable there. If you live in a suburb or a city people are going to have to start dying off.

And of course you should still have a supply. However supplies will vary and redistribution will be required to make each supply optimal.

[pogi]

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm not sure if the law of consecration would be implemented wholesale, but it does make sense that it would be implemented for necessaries: food, clothing, toiletries, and so on, because realistically, implementation of the Brethren's counsel among the Saints to store up these things against a time of want is (will be) uneven, and there will be others in our communities who need that type of help as well.  

I would like to believe that something like that would work, but I just don't believe the the majority of saints are prepared enough to make it work.  If the saints are like the majority of Americans (which I am pretty sure they are), they are not even preparing for their own retirement, let alone for some unforeseen doomsday scenario.  They are more concerned about having the latest cellphone than they are about having a proper food storage supply.   

In a life and death situation, I have a hard time believing that those who have worked and saved and scrimped to follow the prophets counsel to build up their food storage are going to be willing to put their families at risk by dispersing of their goods to those who wasted their time and money on nice cars, big houses, and extravagant living, and recklessly neglected the prophets counsel. 

 If I am right, and as harsh as this might sound, there would have to be a screening process where only those with oil are allowed to join, or else the whole community would not survive. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by pogi

[rodheadlee]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

I would like to believe that something like that would work, but I just don't believe the the majority of saints are prepared enough to make it work.  If the saints are like the majority of Americans (which I am pretty sure they are), they are not even preparing for their own retirement, let alone for some unforeseen doomsday scenario.  They are more concerned about having the latest cellphone than they are about having a proper food storage supply.   

In a life and death situation, I have a hard time believing that those who have worked and saved and scrimped to follow the prophets counsel to build up their food storage are going to be willing to put their families at risk by dispersing of their goods to those who wasted their time and money on nice cars, big houses, and extravagant living, and recklessly neglected the prophets counsel. 

 If I am right, and as harsh as this might sound, there would have to be a screening process where only those with oil are allowed to join, or else the whole community would not survive. 

So like a Temple Recommend? or proof of food storage?

[CMZ]

On 11/21/2016 at 1:09 PM, Anijen said:

What is a wrong thing to prepare for? Tornado? Flood? Loss of income? The hard times before the second coming? Cancer?  Future hospital bills?

What is preparing too much? I really do not want to see the answer of "going into debt," which I have never done, I have never seen another prepper advise someone to go into debt either.

 

Maybe the teachings against fanatical preparations are not pointed at you. Perhaps you have nothing to worry about.

[The Nehor]

On 11/26/2016 at 9:21 PM, pogi said:

I would like to believe that something like that would work, but I just don't believe the the majority of saints are prepared enough to make it work.  If the saints are like the majority of Americans (which I am pretty sure they are), they are not even preparing for their own retirement, let alone for some unforeseen doomsday scenario.  They are more concerned about having the latest cellphone than they are about having a proper food storage supply.   

In a life and death situation, I have a hard time believing that those who have worked and saved and scrimped to follow the prophets counsel to build up their food storage are going to be willing to put their families at risk by dispersing of their goods to those who wasted their time and money on nice cars, big houses, and extravagant living, and recklessly neglected the prophets counsel. 

 If I am right, and as harsh as this might sound, there would have to be a screening process where only those with oil are allowed to join, or else the whole community would not survive. 

I disagree. Zion is to be a refuge in the Last Days. All of Those not willing to fight their neighbor will flee there for safety. Does not sound like an exclusionary camp but a bastion accepting refugees. I imagine God will work miracles amongst people  willing to share all and risk their own physical safety to help their neighbors and strangers. 

[pogi]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 9:14 AM, rodheadlee said:

So like a Temple Recommend? or proof of food storage?

I know, now I am starting to sound like a crazy prepper!  This is just my guess based on my understanding of survival mentality.  I simply feel that the 1%-5% (my guesstimation) of those who are prepared are going to be hesitant to say the least, to share with the 95%-99% who have done little to nothing to prepare.  From a purely survivalist standpoint, that would just be stupid and even suicidal of them to share.  It can be hard to get people to share their goods when their families lives are not in danger.  I think that many of those who do have supplies will network with other groups who have other skills and supplies - they will share their goods with close friends and families who are wanting, but I don't see people being willing to share with the entire stake who may be severely under prepared, unless the stake somehow receives enough resources from the church to compensate for the lack of preparation of the individual families.

Edited November 28, 2016 by pogi

[pogi]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree. Zion is to be a refuge in the Last Days. All of Those not willing to fight their neighbor will flee there for safety. Does not sound like an exclusionary camp but a bastion accepting refugees. I imagine God will work miracles amongst people  willing to share all and risk their own physical safety to help their neighbors and strangers. 

I am not talking about the gathering in Jackson County. I am talking about a hypothetical food shortage that lasts for an indefinite amount of time.  I don't believe that the Lord will provide for those who recklessly neglected the prophets counsel, who has long warned us to prepare.  Those who are not prepared will suffer, and many will die.  Many unprepared pioneers suffered and died crossing the plains, why would it be any different in this hypothetical scenario? 

[Boanerges]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not talking about the gathering in Jackson County. I am talking about a hypothetical food shortage that lasts for an indefinite amount of time.  I don't believe that the Lord will provide for those who recklessly neglected the prophets counsel, who has long warned us to prepare.  Those who are not prepared will suffer, and many will die.  Many unprepared pioneers suffered and died crossing the plains, why would it be any different in this hypothetical scenario? 

It rains on the just and the unjust.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Boanerges said:

It rains on the just and the unjust.

Yes, rain does fall on the just and the unjust...but so does suffering and death.

President Hinckley addressed the false concept that the Lord will save the lives of those who fail to prepare.  He gave this talk after Hurricane Katrina hit the gulf states.  It is titled "If ye are prepared ye shall not fear."   I think it is clear that those who are not prepared
have reason to fear and cannot rely on the Lord for protection when they failed to prepare to protect themselves after generations of counsel on the subject.

Quote

We can so live that we can call upon the Lord for His protection and guidance. … We cannot expect His help if we are unwilling to keep His commandments.

He went on to address the very scripture you quote. 

Quote

We know, of course, that the rain falls on the just as well as the unjust (see Matt. 5:45). But even though the just die they are not lost, but are saved through the Atonement of the Redeemer. Paul wrote to the Romans, “For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord” (Rom. 14:8).

Notice that not even the righteous will always be preserved.  If you fail to prepare, you have no promise.  That is all there is to it.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/if-ye-are-prepared-ye-shall-not-fear?lang=eng

The church has continuously taught that:

Quote

...individuals and families should prepare to be self-reliant in times of personal and widespread tragedy

https://www.lds.org/topics/emergency-preparedness?lang=eng

Notice that we should "prepare to be self-reliant" in times of "widespread tragedy".  We have no promise of salvation from other stake members.  On the contrary, this teaching clearly tells us that we should not expect such help, and should plan on being self-reliant

Edited November 28, 2016 by pogi

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not talking about the gathering in Jackson County. I am talking about a hypothetical food shortage that lasts for an indefinite amount of time.  I don't believe that the Lord will provide for those who recklessly neglected the prophets counsel, who has long warned us to prepare.  Those who are not prepared will suffer, and many will die.  Many unprepared pioneers suffered and died crossing the plains, why would it be any different in this hypothetical scenario? 

So we should have left the handcart companies out in the snow so they would suffer their just desserts for their foolishness?

[pogi]

55 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So we should have left the handcart companies out in the snow so they would suffer their just desserts for their foolishness?

That is not what I am saying.  This is not about teaching people lessons or administering justice, I am talking about survival, where dispersing of your goods may lead to the suffering and death of your own family (your first and foremost priority and obligation to provide for, protect, and preserve).  I don't expect such suicidal generosity in such a scenario, neither should you.  My point was simply that even righteous people will suffer and die if they are not prepared.  History shows that this is true, and the prophets also warn that it is true. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by pogi

[Sleeper Cell]

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 10:57 PM, The Nehor said:

I agree that we need to prepare. In case of disaster my plan is to take my 72 hour kit and head to my parent's house. I can hike it if I need to. I help them with their supply and have no place to store much food where I am. Then I expect we will join with the other wise virgins and share with the foolish virgins and the non-virgins (nonmembers in this tortured and forced allusion to that parable. If food stops coming in long term the food will run out very quickly and we will die having helped our fellow humans and rest with our God. Or we might get to try manna. Always wanted to try that stuff.

So better that all die than only some die?   And we call the foolish virgins “foolish?”  

It is one thing to lay down your life to help your fellow humans.  Quite another to lay down the lives of your children and other family members for whom you are responsible.  

[Anijen]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:26 AM, pogi said:

What bothers me with some of the "preppers" that I know, is that they seem to have an unwholesome excitement when talking about the possible doom and gloom of the last days.  There is an almost morbid pride about what they do, as if they can't wait to show everybody how right they were.

Unfortunately, I have seen this as well. 

I have always looked at the "2 year supply" or now the "1 year supply" as a way to love your neighbor (i.e. to be one who could help them). I have not thought of a catastrophe that will last 1-2 years. 

On 11/22/2016 at 9:39 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

 But we do not live in fear or focus on prepping in any way.

I prep because I take the counsel of our leaders seriously and not out of fear. The truth is; being prepared for "whatever" takes the fear away.

 

[Rain]

9 hours ago, Anijen said:

Unfortunately, I have seen this as well. 

I have always looked at the "2 year supply" or now the "1 year supply" as a way to love your neighbor (i.e. to be one who could help them). I have not thought of a catastrophe that will last 1-2 years. 

I prep because I take the counsel of our leaders seriously and not out of fear. The truth is; being prepared for "whatever" takes the fear away.

 

So true.  When we really started to prepare we just felt it was time to do it.  While in the process of collecting and using it (it makes sense to rotate it) I discovered we were eating better and it was helping with some health problems.  I also discovered that we ate more oats than wheat so I changed our goals with wheat and with other things as well. We didn't feel scared or worried. We weren't planning on anything specific. 

Then my husband was without pay for 2 months and 7 months later he lost his job. Not only did what we prepare give us peace it also gave others peace that were worried about us because we told them how we were living.  One man gave us money and we really didn't need it, but I was worried about something I had committed to someone in need. We asked his permission to give it to them and he readily agreed. 

When we moved for my husband's new job we could not take all our storage with us. We distributed some to people who were working on their storage, but their budget had been tighter.

It was a real blessing to live through all of that. 

Right now we are not near as prepared because we just don't have the resources and room we once did,  but I feel at peace. Heavenly Father tells us to do what we can,  but it isn't or season to be at the point we once were.  Instead, he is preparing us in a different way and I find it amazing that once it would have driven me crazy to live this way,  but now it gives me peace. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rain

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

That is not what I am saying.  This is not about teaching people lessons or administering justice, I am talking about survival, where dispersing of your goods may lead to the suffering and death of your own family (your first and foremost priority and obligation to provide for, protect, and preserve).  I don't expect such suicidal generosity in such a scenario, neither should you.  My point was simply that even righteous people will suffer and die if they are not prepared.  History shows that this is true, and the prophets also warn that it is true. 

So the widow of Zarapeth who fed Elijah was abdicating her foremost priority by feeding him when her family was about to starve?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Sleeper Cell said:

So better that all die than only some die?   And we call the foolish virgins “foolish?”  

It is one thing to lay down your life to help your fellow humans.  Quite another to lay down the lives of your children and other family members for whom you are responsible.  

No, it is better to live the gospel whether it leads to life or death.

[Calm]

" And should we die before our journey's through,

Happy day! All is well!

We then are free from toil and sorrow, too;

With the just we shall dwell!

But if our lives are spared again

To see the Saints their rest obtain,

Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell--

All is well! All is well!"

https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/come-come-ye-saints?lang=eng

There are way too many worse things than death to fear it, IMO.  Why is survival while others are dying around us seen as desirable?  It is not something I can comprehend though I accept others view it that way...that life is too precious to give up on even if by doing so others die; but I could no more refuse to split what little we had than take food from another's child to give it to my own.  In fact, I think my children would prefer to give theirs up if we were together and could be with each other as we fade out.  Starvation from what I hear is worse over a long period of time than a short.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Calm

[Anijen]

Some more observations.

I prep not only for my survival, but for my family, friends, and neighbors. Yes, I believe in giving any extra I have to any who are not prepared.  But my family and friends are my first priority. I could not watch a person or family suffer hunger when I have an abundance and not sharing I would feel would be just wrong.

I do not subscribe to the old cracked wheat, powdered milk, buying food that last for ever, but I am with Nehor, I'd rather rely on manna than the old system of having cans of 50 yr old wheat under my bed. My food storage contains only about 100 pounds of rice and 100 pounds of beans and some old cans of wheat that I inherited from my grandpa. I buy food that I eat today and rotate it. You would find cans of chili, mac and cheese, raman there too. A few extra cans (of what you eat now) each shopping trip will build up a supply pretty fast. Twinkies and comfort food are also on my shelves. I also have a few sealed cans of seeds for my garden (that I always have no time to getting around to).  My guns and ammo are for hunting and sport (I like to plink), not so much for defense, but I have them like my food, water, and gas just in case.

If that day comes, you all are invited over to my house. If that day never comes then my choice to be a prepper has harmed no one.

[pogi]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, it is better to live the gospel whether it leads to life or death.

I agree.

I am not going to lie, it is very noble of anyone who is willing to lay down his life for his neighbors.  I am happy and quite surprised, to hear that there are so many on this thread who would be willing to sacrifice their own life to feed their fellow ward members for a day or two.

If I knew that the sacrifice of my life could actually save the lives of my entire ward from death, that would be one thing.  But when death is imminent in spite of my sacrifice, I could not justify the ultimate sacrifice of not only my life, but that of my wife and suckling infant.  I feel that God would want me and my family to live, as we can do much more good alive than by joining our neighbors in death.

The fact is, there are people who are starving and dying all over the world today, if you are not willing to sell all that you have and give to the poor and hungry today, what makes you think that you will be willing to make an even greater sacrifice when you are in survival mode and the life of your family is on the line? People tend to be less charitable, not more charitable, in survival mode. I don't believe a man (if he was being honest with himself) would be willing to watch their new born son suck the remaining life out of their wife, and then starve to death slowly in their arms.  For what good??? To feed others for a day or two and then join them in death???  No sir, not me. 

I don't disagree with your statement above, I just don't believe that the gospel requires such a sacrifice from us.  Again, we can do more good alive than dead.  Here is what the gospel teaches:

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"Self-reliance is the ability, commitment, and effort to provide the spiritual and temporal necessities of life for self and family" (Handbook 2: Administering the Church [2010], 6.1.1).

Quote

President Thomas S. Monson has counseled, "[Self-reliance] is an essential element in our spiritual as well as our temporal well-being." ("Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare," Ensign, Sept. 1986, 3)

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"Only when we are self-reliant can we truly emulate the Savior in serving and blessing others."

Donating all of your life-supporting goods to feed hundreds of people for 1-2 days is not wise and it does not follow the principles of self-reliance.  You cannot effectively serve others through such a sacrifice.

Here is something else the gospel teaches:

Quote

If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (1 Tim. 5:8.)

I know that I will be accused of taking this scripture out of context, but I believe it holds true in matters of putting the life of others before the life of your own family.  To claim that the gospel requires such of us is a gross misunderstanding in my opinion.

Edited November 29, 2016 by pogi

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree.

I am not going to lie, it is very noble of anyone who is willing to lay down his life for his neighbors.  I am happy and quite surprised, to hear that there are so many on this thread who would be willing to sacrifice their own life to feed their fellow ward members for a day or two.

If I knew that the sacrifice of my life could actually save the lives of my entire ward from death, that would be one thing.  But when death is imminent in spite of my sacrifice, I could not justify the ultimate sacrifice of not only my life, but that of my wife and suckling infant.  I feel that God would want me and my family to live, as we can do much more good alive than by joining our neighbors in death.

The fact is, there are people who are starving and dying all over the world today, if you are not willing to sell all that you have and give to the poor and hungry today, what makes you think that you will be willing to make an even greater sacrifice when you are in survival mode and the life of your family is on the line? People tend to be less charitable, not more charitable, in survival mode.

The problem of starving people currently is not one of resources. If we wanted to feed the starving we have both the resources and the willingness. Almost no one starves in the United States or the Western world because of this. It is wonderful. There are resources available. In other areas there are institutional problems. There are government and local power groups who profit from not being able to keep their people fed. Giving up all I have will not get what I have through that blockade. This is why I do not impoverish myself in that way. I would like to believe that if God asked it of me that I would obey. Of course I have no way to be sure about that.