There is no Christ, in the Church of Jesus Christ.

[waveslider]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

I have done such a study with a general conference. It is fairly easy to do, as the texts of all the conference sermons are published online and are searchable.

Specifically, I was responding to the complaint that Joseph Smith is mentioned more often in conference than Jesus Christ. So I did a count and a comparison, counting all the instances when Christ was mentioned, including various names or titles for HIm and excluding His name given at the close of talks, reasoning that this is routine so it might skew the results.

What I found was that the ratio is not even close. Joseph Smith was mentioned in the conference only a tiny fraction of the time in comparison to how often Christ was mentioned.

So this would contradict Tacenda's notion that the problem -- if there is a problem -- is "top down."

 

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

How did you conduct this study, and how far back did you go? According to this article, Jesus shows up in the latter conferences but hardly a mention in the early church. And it may be because of the below remark.

http://religionnews.com/2016/03/04/jesus-less-joseph-changes-mormon-general-conference/

Gordon: We interpret that by saying that the Church is concerned about how it is perceived by others who are not LDS. They want to reinforce the idea that Mormonism is a staunch Christian religion, and the Book of Mormon doesn’t support that with critics. It’s a scripture that they don’t recognize as genuine or valid.

This is part of the overall de-emphasis of certain kinds of teachings and doctrines that are peculiar to Mormonism. There’s been a decline in mentioning specifically Mormon ideas of salvation, like exaltation and the Celestial Kingdom. Those are core Mormon theological beliefs, but they don’t get referenced very often at General Conference, especially in the last 30 years.

This link to the article seems to be focused on the topics of each talk, not what Scott did, "So I did a count and a comparison, counting all the instances when Christ was mentioned, including various names or titles for HIm and excluding His name given at the close of talks, reasoning that this is routine so it might skew the results."

I think it would be interesting to see if the results aren't that Christ indeed was talked about just as much, or not in the past.

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is it exactly.

But that is not the Mormon tradition.  And why should it be?

I'm not sure. I've only heard one or two such sermons. Maybe we would have more spiritual sacrament meetings if we adopted something of that style. Then again, maybe not! I'm sure we can learn things from other traditions, but I can't really say what approach would be best. Probably it would help to attend a number of different congregations' worship services to get a flavor for what other denominations do, and see what works well and what doesn't. 

[waveslider]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

I'm not sure. I've only heard one or two such sermons. Maybe we would have more spiritual sacrament meetings if we adopted something of that style. Then again, maybe not! I'm sure we can learn things from other traditions, but I can't really say what approach would be best. Probably it would help to attend a number of different congregations' worship services to get a flavor for what other denominations do, and see what works well and what doesn't. 

I can't speak for all the flavors of what other denominations do, but the flavors I have personally sampled sure do give a watered down version of who Christ is and what he teaches.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course not. I don't know anything about his sacrament meetings or their content. I don't even know Boanerges.

What an odd question.

It seems like you don't know anything about the sacrament meetings or their content that the 'complainers' have spoken about either, but that hasn't stopped you from expressing that 'often' they only complain for invalid reasons.

Given that, it doesn't seem like such an odd question from my point of view.  It seems to fit the standard that you have set.  I apologize if i have misunderstood again.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

It seems like you don't know anything about the sacrament meetings or their content that the 'complainers' have spoken about either, but that hasn't stopped you from expressing that 'often' they only complain for invalid reasons.

Given that, it doesn't seem like such an odd question from my point of view.  It seems to fit the standard that you have set.  I apologize if i have misunderstood again.

 

From observing past comments, it is possible to discern a person's attitude and disposition with regard to uniquely LDS beliefs, doctrine and scripture; understanding about LDS doctrinal structure, etc., to the point where one who is familiar with a typical LDS worship service can fairly easily and competently read between the lines when such a person claims that Mormons habitually neglect Christ in their worship services. (That's what prompted me to do my word-count study of one of the general conferences to test the claim that Joseph Smith is mentioned more often in conference sermons than is Christ. My findings didn't just debunk that claim; they devastated it.)

Moreover, this is the sort of thing that tends to be accepted uncritically and passed along via grapevine correspondence by those looking to find fault without bothering to investigate or determine independently whether the claim actually holds water.

And before you ask, no, I don't have any specific individual examples at the ready, and I'm not going to take time to look for them now. So you can accept or reject my comment as you see fit. (To be clear, I'm not referring to Boanerges or Rain or anyone else who has contributed to this thread.)

Edited October 25, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Garden Girl]

20 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Yeah, I started a thread on this about a week ago and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about. Well I think its a real problem. The first counselor finished the meeting saying  we were 'Spiritual Feed" today and I'm wondering what meeting he attended.

Oh and to answer a previous question, No, Prayers do not count.

I also think we need to teach a course on how to give a talk, and it doesn't start with telling everyone that you're no good giving talks, or that you didn't have time to prepare, or how it was when the Exec Secretary snuck up on you to give you your talk assignment.

This is my pet peeve... or whatever lame remark is used to denote how the speaker is reluctant and/or sorry to be there giving a talk... I want to stand up and shout, Then sit the heck down!!!  Or when they try and begin with some lame joke where the congregation is supposed to respond with a laugh... 

Fortunately, in my ward, for the past few years when talks are assigned the topic is selected and at least two or more scriptures cited from which to build the talk.  Talks are to be Christ centered... or at least related to or leading to Christ, the commandments, etc, even with topics of general doctrines such as WoW, Fam History, marriage/family etc.  I love my ward...

GG

Edited October 24, 2016 by Garden Girl

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is it exactly.

But that is not the Mormon tradition.  And why should it be?

 

“We may conclude, that though there were different dispensations, yet all things which God communicated to His people were calculated to draw their minds to the great object, and to teach them to rely upon God alone as the author of their salvation, as contained in His law.”

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."

"God has appointed a day in which He will judge the world, and this He has given an assurance of in that He raised up His Son Jesus Christ from the dead—the point on which the hope of all who believe the inspired record is founded for their future happiness and enjoyment; because, ‘If Christ be not risen,’ said Paul to the Corinthians, ‘your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ have perished."

"Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they possessed or anticipated here. … I am glad I have the privilege of communicating to you some things which, if grasped closely, will be a help to you when earthquakes bellow, the clouds gather, the lightnings flash, and the storms are ready to burst upon you like peals of thunder."

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-3?lang=eng

I wonder how often in his sermons Joseph said little or nothing about Christ or God (serious question).

[Calm]

Also 2 Nephi 25:

 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

 24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keepthe law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

 25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

 26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

Mosiah 18:8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

Edited October 24, 2016 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Josiah 18:8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

 9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

You probably mean Mosiah, not Josiah -- unless you have unearthed a lost book of scripture.

[Calm]

Blasted autocorrect, thanks.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, waveslider said:

 

This link to the article seems to be focused on the topics of each talk, not what Scott did, "So I did a count and a comparison, counting all the instances when Christ was mentioned, including various names or titles for HIm and excluding His name given at the close of talks, reasoning that this is routine so it might skew the results."

I think it would be interesting to see if the results aren't that Christ indeed was talked about just as much, or not in the past.

Also, this paragraph from the link bears out what I found in my study of a single general conference:

Quote

Gary: During the last 30 years, Jesus Christ has been mentioned four and a half times more frequently than Joseph Smith. And of course, Joseph Smith is still one of the more frequently identified terms from our analysis, although he has dropped out of the top twenty items being mentioned in General Conference for the last 30 years. That’s a significant point. The contrast between mentions of Jesus and Joseph Smith over the last 30 years is really very, very notable.

A table presented in the article shows that from 1980 to 2009, Joseph Smith was not even on the list of top 10 most frequent topics, while Jesus Christ has headed the list during that time period

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Also, this paragraph from the link bears out what I found in my study of a single general conference:

A table presented in the article shows that from 1980 to 2009, Joseph Smith was not even on the list of top 10 most frequent topics, while Jesus Christ has headed the list during that time period

And what if it were reversed?
Does that change anything?  Does it change a single point of doctrine, ordinance, or key of the priesthood of Jesus Christ?

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And what if it were reversed?
Does that change anything?  Does it change a single point of doctrine, ordinance, or key of the priesthood of Jesus Christ?

No.

I only mention it by way of rebuttal to the notion (not sure it's common today, but it was back then, when I made my study) that Joseph Smith is emphasized in general conference talks and Jesus is neglected.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

And what if it were reversed?
Does that change anything?  Does it change a single point of doctrine, ordinance, or key of the priesthood of Jesus Christ?

If all of the sacrament talks were on tupperware, it wouldn't change anything.  That still doesn't mean we should be o.k. with it.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

If all of the sacrament talks were on tupperware, it wouldn't change anything.

I disagree.
The gospel centers in Christ.  Any learning or discussion on any principle of the gospel can lead to progression.
But that doesn't mean the only aspect of the gospel that deserves direct mention is Christ.
That's like studying to become a Doctor but never getting past Anatomy 101.  At some point you need to study other areas of the medical field.
Or becoming a literature major but only reading one novel.

The gospel features Faith in Christ as the first principle, not the only principle.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I disagree.
The gospel centers in Christ.  Any learning or discussion on any principle of the gospel can lead to progression.
But that doesn't mean the only aspect of the gospel that deserves direct mention is Christ.
That's like studying to become a Doctor but never getting past Anatomy 101.  At some point you need to study other areas of the medical field.
Or becoming a literature major but only reading one novel.

The gospel features Faith in Christ as the first principle, not the only principle.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm glad that talks on tupperware wouldn't fly for very long in this church.  That's as it should be.

[Guest]

I was just glad to be there and her the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached, and Jesus Christ worshiped. It was the first time in two months that I was able to walk due to complications due to diabities. It was great to be back...although all I could through was Sacrament meeting. Only one person noticed we were gone for two months. No doubt due to recent Ward realignment. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[strappinglad]

1. Who did Christ tell us to worship? Are we  focused as we should ?

2. I once started to read a book that supposedly spoke of Christ's early youth ie 6 yrs  to 18 . It got weird/bizarre and was short on references so I quit. There is very little info that is sanctioned on Christ before His ministry began.

3. Other religions have Christ so well worked out that there are only a thousand or so versions.

[Rain]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I guess I didn't make it clear, though I thought I had, that it was just one conference I studied (I don't recall which one) and that I went to the lds.org website and counted each occurrence of the name of Christ -- or some variation thereof -- in the conference sermons. l likewise counted each mention of Joseph Smith and compared the two.

I didn't count multiple conferences going back several years; that would have taken more time than I have. I assumed the one I selected would have been typical.

The accusation, as I recall, pertained to contemporary conferences, not to "the early church."

I suggest using this corpus next time. 

[Rain]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

Exactly, which is why it should be pretty easy to work Him in, right?  And if we forget to work Him in (as can easily happen), then that's something that should be remedied and worked on.  Especially when we consider that nonmembers and less active members don't always make the connection between family history and Christ on their own, for example, and so can very easily leave such a meeting feeling like Christ wasn't as present as He should have been.

I really appreciate all you have said here on the thread.  I do want to say though that I don't think we should try to work Him in. Several have given the impression that if we have to have Christ in every talk then it won't mean much.  I would agree with that.  His name shouldn't be the afterthought that we just stick in there (and I know that's really not what you were trying to say!  I just wanted it to be clear).  I think if we start in our thinking with Him and then think about the relationship with Him and tithing, food storage, faith, family, scriptures, missionary work etc then He will naturally be a part of the talk because the speaker has focused on Him.  In fact, when we start with this thought and continue it I believe you could not mention his name and still have it very apparent that He is the center.

Several have mentioned things that are unique to our church.  Love this.  Love that they are talked about.  Why does our church have those things?  Because of Christ of course.  He and his Father created and carried out this beautiful plan for all of us  There are so many things planned and prepared for.  So since it is God's plan that we have the restoration etc. let's just make sure he is the center of it.  

 

[Rain]

9 hours ago, Boanerges said:

A couple years ago our stake president said in the Sunday stake conference session that every sacrament meeting talk should be focused on the Savior. He didn't say they all had to be explicitly about Christ but he said whatever topic we are given we should add something like "come closer to the Savior through...." And he gave some examples, such as using times when Christ healed people as examples when giving a talk about priesthood or blessings.

The next conference an area authority came and in his Sunday talk he spoke about a well known person who was a friend of his and whom he had tried to get to come to church for many years. One Sunday the guy agreed, and he and another well known member went with him. He said there were only two talks, a husband and wife, and the topic was preparedness. After the meeting his friend told him he now understood why people say Mormons aren't Christian and his friend never attended LDS church again. Our Area Authority visitor then said that by all means we should be prepared - but that was not an appropriate topic for sacrament meeting and would be better suited to priesthood and Relief Society meetings. He explicitly said, more directly than our stake president had said, that all talks should be about the Savior. He then went on talking for a few minutes about why it's called sacrament meeting, and the whole purpose of the meeting was to remember the Savior, and therefore all talks should point us directly toward Christ. He also counseled bishoprics to only assign topics related to Jesus Christ.

I don't think my stake or ward is all that unusual, and I do travel from time to time and have experienced other wards where mentions of the Savior outside of hymns, prayers, and the sacrament is nonexistent. I'm glad my stake president and this area authority also noticed and are concerned enough that they spoke out about it.

While I was provident living specialist and my husband was emergency prep specialist we were both asked to give a sacrament meeting talks on food storage and emergency prep.  It wasn't long after I was in the ward where rarely was Christ mentioned so I had that in mind.   As I prayed over how to give an appropriate food storage talk in sacrament meeting it was beautiful how the Spirit shared with me the relationship with Christ and food storage.

Even the most practical subjects can be spoken of in sacrament meeting if the focus is on Christ, but most people, when given a practical talk don't start thinking about that focus of relationship.  They think about the subject.  Not judging here.  It's just the way the minds of most people work.  It can be very difficult to give a practical talk in sacrament meeting and still have the focus on Christ so I can understand why the area authority said this, but I still feel that some can, with the help of the Spirit, give a talk on it that is appropriate. 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Rain

[Scott Lloyd]

58 minutes ago, Rain said:

I suggest using this corpus next time. 

Cool. 

I would need a tutorial on it, but I can see it has potential. 

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, Rain said:

While I was provident living specialist and my husband was emergency prep specialist we were both asked to give a sacrament meeting talks on food storage and emergency prep.  It wasn't long after I was in the ward where rarely was Christ mentioned so I had that in mind.   As I prayed over how to give an appropriate food storage talk in sacrament meeting it was beautiful how the Spirit shared with me the relationship with Christ and food storage.

Even the most practical subjects can be spoken of in sacrament meeting if the focus is on Christ, but most people, when given a practical talk don't start thinking about that focus of relationship.  They think about the subject.  Not judging here.  It's just the way the minds of most people work.  So I think it can be very difficult to give a practical talk in sacrament meeting and still have the focus on Christ so I can understand why the area authority said this, but I still feel that some can, with the help of the Spirit, give a talk on it that is appropriate. 

This is excellent, I wish the bishoprics out there were told to do this, awesome idea!

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, Rain said:

  As I prayed over how to give an appropriate food storage talk in sacrament meeting it was beautiful how the Spirit shared with me the relationship with Christ and food storage.

Even the most practical subjects can be spoken of in sacrament meeting if the focus is on Christ, but most people, when given a practical talk don't start thinking about that focus of relationship. 

Now this I can agree with.
If we aren't able to connect all gospel principles to Christ we might not be paying attention.
Not every talk needs to be directly about Christ.  But most can be easily connected if we bother to.

- Work for the Dead
- 3 Degrees of Glory
- Eternal marriage
- Priesthood

Pretty much everything...all connectable to Christ.  Christ doesn't need to be the topic of every talk, but making a connection should be an easy inclusion.