"Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847" New Book

[ALarson]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

If you assume,  which of course you shouldn't, that each of his children who lived to adulthood had 2 children and so on there would be 688 descendants at her closeness or closer. 

ALarson - I look forward to seeing what else you have to report. 

I just may post quotes, etc., here that are new to me and then get other's input.  

Such as this quote from chapter two of the book:

Quote

In this chapter, we will explore what Smith Sr. meant when he bragged in a High Counsel meeting in Ohio that "he knew more about money-digging than any man alive, had been at it for thirty years."

I marked that quote because I had not read it anywhere before now.  What is frustrating is that the footnote she gives for this quote is:  "Donna Hill, Joseph Smith: The First Mormon (Midvale, Utah: Doubleday, 1977), 67".

So I tried to find the actual source for the quote (notes from the High Counsel meeting or a journal entry from someone in attendance, etc.) and only found the same quote on this page:

http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/smithtrs.htm

The footnote on this page also names the same source (Donna Hill). So, I'd have to buy her book and see if she actually gives the source for this quote:  

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Mormon-Donna-Hill/dp/156085118X

.

 

Edited October 17, 2016 by ALarson

[smac97]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I just may post quotes, etc., here that are new to me and then get other's input.  

Such as this quote from chapter two of the book:

I marked that quote because I had not read it anywhere before now.  What is frustrating is that the footnote she gives for this quote is:  "Donna Hill, Joseph Smith: The First Mormon (Midvale, Utah: Doubleday, 1977), 67".

So I tried to find the actual source for the quote (notes from the High Counsel meeting or a journal entry from someone in attendance, etc.) and only found the same quote on this page:

http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/smithtrs.htm

The footnote on this page also names the same source (Donna Hill). So, I'd have to buy her book and see if she actually gives the source for this quote:  

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Mormon-Donna-Hill/dp/156085118X

I had an interesting experience a few years ago that made me not be super-duper impressed by scholarship simply because it is footnoted.  Here's the summary:

1. Several years ago a terrible movie came out about the Mountain Meadows Massacre: September Dawn.

2.   The opening line of dialog the trailer for September Dawn is a statement by Brigham Young:

"I am the voice of God.  And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

That seemed like a rather explosive line, all the more so since the movie's director, Christopher Cain, claimed that all of the dialogue in the film attributed to Brigham Young was authentic.  In a New York Times article, "With Only God Left as a Witness," by John Anderson (published on January 22, 2006, available online here),  Mr. Cain stated (emphasis added):

''And by the way,'' Mr. Cain said, '' I didn't write any of his dialogue,'' explaining that it was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre. ''I sat here watching this a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking: 'Maybe I made that up. I don't think he would have said that.' And I went back and pulled it up and, man, he did.'' 

Mr. Cain recently repeated this claim in a radio interview (here is a link to the audio) (emphases added):

CALLER: Before I take issue with ya, I want to say that I agree with you folks that it is important to search out the roots of stuff like this when they happen, even if they happen to one of your own. I am a Mormon, and coming to grips with this has been quite a challenge.  The issue I want to take, is when you look at the trailer, the scene opens with a Brigham Young comment, something to the tune of "I am the Voice of God, and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down". Where did that quote come from? 

HH: Chris Cain?

CC: I don't have the quote in front of me... I can't tell you exactly... I should have brought the quotes with me, but I didn't bring them. 

HH: But you're certain it's a quote from a published and reputable source?

CC: Yes.

CALLER: Well, let me tell you where I'm coming from. I participate regularly in an apologetic message board where the critics and the apologists come together, and both 'sides of the aisle' have tried to search the source of this quote, and we can't find anything older than a couple of years. It seems to have not existed until a couple of years ago. 

HH: Chris, will you send me what you believe to be the source of that, and I'll make sure I post that at Hughhewitt.com? (CC says yes) I hope that works for you, Rob, because we can't get to the bottom of that now, but I'll look up, and I will follow up on it. 

3.  Jon Voight, the star of the film, has made the same claim (emphasis added): 

There's a wonderful book by Will Bagley called The Blood of the Prophets. And people can read this stuff, and hopefully they will. They will see the film and they will go and do their own work on it. But every word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre. And that itself is quite shocking if you, having been introduced to this story... 

4. I still had a hard time believing that such an explosive quote could have only recently emerged, so I did a bit of digging.  The only reference I could find was one of the newsletters from Utah Lighthouse Ministries. Specifically, in the "Letters to the Editor" section, I found this letter from an anonymous author to Sandra Tanner (emphasis added): 

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it. 

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

The response from Sandra Tanner (the head of this anti-Mormon ministry), was as follows:

Sandra's Note: Sorry, not familiar with the quotes...

5. I thought it odd that the above letter was sent about the same time that the screenplay for the film, by Carole Whang Schutter, was apparently being written (the movie came out in 2007).  Frankly, I suspected that Schutter was the author of the above letter to Sandra Tanner.  I also thought it interesting that Schutter's publicist, Helen Cook, tried really, really hard to drum up controversy about the film (see,e.g., here), so I emailed her and asked if Ms. Schutter could provide the source of the "hewn down" quote.  After a bit of wrangling, I received the following forwarded response (through Cook) from Schutter:

Quote

 

It came from Sally Denton's book "American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows."She is a highly thought of Investigative Reporter who has written many best-selling historical books. I should have kept exactly where that came from but at the time, didn't think I was going to do a book. However, many of his sermons certainly were consistent with that particular phrase.

 

Joseph Smith also referred to himself as "god on earth," and "the voice of god," he said the prophets were "the voice of god." BY was a blind follower of Joseph and believed it.
 

Here is a statement one of the investors wrote:
 

All of the dialogue of Brigham Young in this movie is completely accurate and is taken from LDS documents except for one sentence. Everybody at the time knew he and Joseph Smith before him were the voices of God. The second clause of that sentence  . . . “and anyone who doesn’t like it will be hewn down” is a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons which he didn’t sugar coat. For example, he said, “If any miserable scoundrels come here cut their throats.” Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a Sherlock Holmes meets the Mormons story called A Study in Scarlet in which he said , "In the meantime, remember that now and forever you are of our religion. Brigham Young has said it, and he has spoken with the voice of Joseph Smith, which is the voice of God."

 

 

6. I responded back to Ms. Cook as follows:

 

Quote

Thank you for your follow-up.

However, I am confused at this response from Ms. Schutter.  She claims that the quote attributed in the movie to Brigham Young ("I am the voice of God, and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down")  came from Sally Denton's book, American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 . 

As far as I can tell, the following is the only instance in Denton's book where Brigham Young is quoted using the words "hewn down."  On page 105 we read:

Young's church elders swept through the outlying communities in the winter of 1856-57 "in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism," as one account put it, followed by the constant scrutiny of those who had been found lacking.  Young declared that all backsliders should be "hewn down." 

The footnote for these two quotes (fn 105) refers to "Josiah F. Gibbs, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 8ff."  This book, published in 1910, is available for download from GoogleBooks here and is also available for online viewing here.

Three points come to mind after having read these materials: 

First, Denton is quoting Gibbs for the "hewn down" language, but that language is nowhere to be found in Gibbs's book.

Second, nothing from the quote save two words ("hewn down") appears in either Denton's book or the reference she uses (Gibbs's book).  There is no reference to Brigham Young being the "voice of God."  "Hewn down" does appear, but in the context of "backsliding" Mormons, not "anyone who tries to invade our lands."  There is also no reference in Denton's or Gibbs's book about Brigham Young having a revelation from God about calling down curses, nor is there any reference to him "curs[ing] the gentiles."

Third, Ms. Schutter claims that the quote we have been discussing "came from Sally Denton's book," and yet it is a virtually verbatim quote from an anti-Mormon website.  Specifically, some anonymous person wrote to Sandra Tanner, a prominent anti-Mormon writer from Salt Lake City (who, I understand, was enlisted as an advisor for September Dawn).  This anonymous person's letter, posted on Mrs. Tanner's website since November 2004, states:

 

 

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it.

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

Mrs. Tanner responded that she was "not familiar with the quotes."

Compare the above quote with the statement by Brigham Young as it appears in the movie (a clip is available on Yahoo!Movies):

 

 

I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and the power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the gentiles.

The two statements are identical save for the addition of a single word in the movie version ("I have the right and the power" as compared to "I have the right and power"). 

To be frank, it appears that Ms. Schutter is not being entirely forthcoming.  How does she explain the presence of the movie line on Mrs. Tanner's website back in 2004?

 

7. I did not receive any further substantive responses from Ms. Cook, so I contacted Sally Denton:

 

Quote

I have run into a question regarding a quote in your book, American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857 .

Specifically, on page 105 of you book you state:

Young's church elders swept through the outlying communities in the winter of 1856-57 "in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism," as one account put it, followed by the constant scrutiny of those who had been found lacking.  Young declared that all backsliders should be "hewn down." 

The footnote for these two quotes (fn 105) refers to "Josiah F. Gibbs, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 8ff."  This book, published in 1910, is available for download from GoogleBooks here and is also available for online viewing here.

I have reviewed this source and cannot find either of the quotes you attribute to it ("in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism" and "backsliders should be 'hewn down'"). 

Can you point me to the page number in Gibbs's book where you found these two quotes?

 

8. Ms. Denton responded and advised that she had written her book many years ago and no longer has access to the research files for it.  I sent her one more email:

 

Quote

Thank you for your response.  I wonder if there might be a minor error in attribution here.  I have reviewed the referenced source by Mr. Gibbs (available for download from GoogleBooks here and for online viewing here) and have not found the two quotations ("in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism" and "backsliders should be 'hewn down'").  The Library of Congress only shows one published edition of The Mountain Meadows Massacre by Josiah Gibbs, so I think the edition published in 1910 is the only version of that book.

However, Mr. Gibbs wrote another book, Lights and Shadows of Mormonism (an online version is available here).  On page 200 of this publication, Mr. Gibbs quotes from a passage in the Journal of Discourses (Vol. III, page 266): 

That Brigham Young had no respect for the rights of saint or sinner, when those rights were in conflict with his preconceived ideas of what the Almighty wanted, has been abundantly proved by execrpta already taken from his sermons. In every sense of the word, Brigham Young was a religious despot. The laws of his country, the rights of those of other religious beliefs, were, in his opinion, all subservient to the laws of God of which he was the sole earthly interpreter and executioner. There is not the slightest doubt that he intended, and in some instances did, "lay judgment to the line and righteousness to the plummet." And to show exactly what the last quotation meant, the following excerpt is given: "The time is coming when justice will be laid to the line and righteousness to the plummet; when we shall take the old broadsword and ask, 'Are you for God?' And if you are not heartily on the Lord's side, you WILL BE HEWN DOWN."—"Journal of Discourses," Vol. III, page 266.

Is it possible that Lights and Shadows, rather than The Mountain Meadows Massacre, was the actual source of the "hewn down" quotation?

Actually, I think it the better atttribution for the "hewn down" comment would be the Journal of Discourses (since that is the source Gibbs was quoting).  Further, the citation provided by Mr. Gibbs is slightly incorrect.  The quotation is from page 226 of Volume III (rather than page 266).  (A scanned copy of Volume III is available here.)

As for the other quotation ("orgy of recrimination and rebaptism"), I have not found this quote in either of the books written by Mr. Gibbs.  However, this appears to be a bit of editorializing by Mr. Gibbs, so I am not interested in it as much as the "hewn down" quotation.

You may be interested to know that your book's citation to Brigham Young's warning to "backsliders" (that they "should be 'hewn down'") was used by the screenwriter of the movie September Dawn to create what she (and the director, and the star, Jon Voight) claimed is an actual quote from Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God.  And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."  This line was used in the movie's trailer and was prominent in the advertising campaign for the movie.

Anyway, I thank you for your time.

 

9. Ms. Denton agreed that the above assessment was possible.  Interestingly, she also advised that she had no affiliation with the film, and that the producers of September Dawn had "insisted that they had never read American Massacre," which Ms. Denton had found hard to believe but took at face value.  

 

10. In sum:

• A 2007 movie included a very controversial statement which was attributed to Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."
• The makers of the film publicly declared that all of the dialogue in the film attributed to Brigham Young was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre, and that the director personally verified this.  Of the stars of the film said the same thing ("{E}very word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre").
• The author of the screenplay claims that she obtained the controversial statement from Sally Denton's book, American Massacre.
• Sally Denton has advised that the makers of the film insisted that they had never read American Massacre.
• Denton's book does not include the controversial quote in question.  
• Instead, Denton's book includes a single quote which includes two words from the controversial quote ("hewn down").  This quote is attributed to Brigham Young in a book by Josiah Gibbs published in 1910, and is a reference to what will happen to those "not heartily on the Lord's side."  
• The 1910 book by Gibbs does not contain the controversial "hewn down" quote attributed to Brigham Young.  So Denton apparently made a mistake here.
• Another book written by Gibbs, Lights and Shadows of Mormonism, includes a quote from a sermon given by Brigham Young to members of the Church on March 2, 1856 in the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City.  This sermon was published in the Journal of Discourses (v. 3, p. 226).
• Only two words from the controversial statement ("hewn down") appear to be properly attributed to Brigham Young.  The remainder of it was apparently fabricated by the makers of September Dawn and fraudulently passed off as authentic.
• An anonymous letter was sent to Sandra Tanner in 2004 quoted, verbatim, the controversial statement used in the film: "I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and the power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the gentiles."  Consequently, it appears that either Carole Whang Schutter wrote the anonymous letter to Sandra Tanner, or else cribbed from it and falsely attributed it to Sally Denton.

Based on the above, I find the controversial "hewn down" quote, which the makers of September Dawn repeatedly declared to be authentic, to almost certainly be a fabrication.

Let's keep in mind that we are only dealing with one quote.  It took quite a while for me to sort out what was wrong with it, but it seemed worth looking into given the explosive nature of the claim.

For another instance of apparent historian malfeasance, take a look at Will Bagley's Blood of the Prophets, where he somehow managed to interpolate (that is, replace) the word "grain" with "allies" in his quotation of Dimick Huntington's journal, and thus radically change the quote, such that he called it "troubling new evidence" which he used to implicate Brigham Young in the Mountain Meadows Massacre (see, e.g., here).

For yet another example of historian malfeasance, take a look at the debacle of Michael Bellesiles' Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture.  

I'm not saying the book under discussion fits with these others.  I haven't read it yet.  But whenever I see a book that purports to present new and troubling/disturbing allegations against the early leaders of the LDS Church, I am going to wait for a while and see how things play out.  I'm not about to give the book the benefit of the doubt simply because it has 1,400 footnotes.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Nevo]

13 hours ago, ALarson said:

I marked that quote because I had not read it anywhere before now.  What is frustrating is that the footnote she gives for this quote is:  "Donna Hill, Joseph Smith: The First Mormon (Midvale, Utah: Doubleday, 1977), 67".

Donna Hill's 1977 biography does indeed provide a source for the quote: "James Colin Brewster, Very Important to the Mormon Money Diggers (Springfield: n.p., March 20, 1843). Utah State Hist. Soc. has a photo duplicate of the pamphlet" (see Donna Hill, Joseph Smith: The First Mormon [Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1977], 461n10).

Hill doesn't get the quote quite right, though. What Brewster's pamphlet actually says is "in Kirtland, Joseph Smith sn'r, the Prophet's father, said in Council: 'I know more about money digging, than any man in this generation, for I have been in the business more than thirty years.'"

Brewster isn't reporting this firsthand, since he was only 10 years old at the time, but Joseph Sr. may well have said something like it. For more on Brewster, see Dan Vogel, "James Colin Brewster: The Boy Prophet Who Challenged Mormon Authority," in Differing Visions: Dissenters in Mormon History, ed. Roger D. Launius and Linda Thatcher [Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1994], 120–139). Or there's Wikipedia.

Brewster_To The Mormon Money Diggers.pdf

Edited October 18, 2016 by Nevo

[bluebell]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

I had an interesting experience a few years ago that made me not be super-duper impressed by scholarship simply because it is footnoted.  Here's the summary:

1. Several years ago a terrible movie came out about the Mountain Meadows Massacre: September Dawn.

2.   The opening line of dialog the trailer for September Dawn is a statement by Brigham Young:

"I am the voice of God.  And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

That seemed like a rather explosive line, all the more so since the movie's director, Christopher Cain, claimed that all of the dialogue in the film attributed to Brigham Young was authentic.  In a New York Times article, "With Only God Left as a Witness," by John Anderson (published on January 22, 2006, available online here),  Mr. Cain stated (emphasis added):

''And by the way,'' Mr. Cain said, '' I didn't write any of his dialogue,'' explaining that it was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre. ''I sat here watching this a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking: 'Maybe I made that up. I don't think he would have said that.' And I went back and pulled it up and, man, he did.'' 

Mr. Cain recently repeated this claim in a radio interview (here is a link to the audio) (emphases added):

CALLER: Before I take issue with ya, I want to say that I agree with you folks that it is important to search out the roots of stuff like this when they happen, even if they happen to one of your own. I am a Mormon, and coming to grips with this has been quite a challenge.  The issue I want to take, is when you look at the trailer, the scene opens with a Brigham Young comment, something to the tune of "I am the Voice of God, and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down". Where did that quote come from? 

HH: Chris Cain?

CC: I don't have the quote in front of me... I can't tell you exactly... I should have brought the quotes with me, but I didn't bring them. 

HH: But you're certain it's a quote from a published and reputable source?

CC: Yes.

CALLER: Well, let me tell you where I'm coming from. I participate regularly in an apologetic message board where the critics and the apologists come together, and both 'sides of the aisle' have tried to search the source of this quote, and we can't find anything older than a couple of years. It seems to have not existed until a couple of years ago. 

HH: Chris, will you send me what you believe to be the source of that, and I'll make sure I post that at Hughhewitt.com? (CC says yes) I hope that works for you, Rob, because we can't get to the bottom of that now, but I'll look up, and I will follow up on it. 

3.  Jon Voight, the star of the film, has made the same claim (emphasis added): 

There's a wonderful book by Will Bagley called The Blood of the Prophets. And people can read this stuff, and hopefully they will. They will see the film and they will go and do their own work on it. But every word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre. And that itself is quite shocking if you, having been introduced to this story... 

4. I still had a hard time believing that such an explosive quote could have only recently emerged, so I did a bit of digging.  The only reference I could find was one of the newsletters from Utah Lighthouse Ministries. Specifically, in the "Letters to the Editor" section, I found this letter from an anonymous author to Sandra Tanner (emphasis added): 

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it. 

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

The response from Sandra Tanner (the head of this anti-Mormon ministry), was as follows:

Sandra's Note: Sorry, not familiar with the quotes...

5. I thought it odd that the above letter was sent about the same time that the screenplay for the film, by Carole Whang Schutter, was apparently being written (the movie came out in 2007).  Frankly, I suspected that Schutter was the author of the above letter to Sandra Tanner.  I also thought it interesting that Schutter's publicist, Helen Cook, tried really, really hard to drum up controversy about the film (see,e.g., here), so I emailed her and asked if Ms. Schutter could provide the source of the "hewn down" quote.  After a bit of wrangling, I received the following forwarded response (through Cook) from Schutter:

 

6. I responded back to Ms. Cook as follows:

 

 

7. I did not receive any further substantive responses from Ms. Cook, so I contacted Sally Denton:

 

 

8. Ms. Denton responded and advised that she had written her book many years ago and no longer has access to the research files for it.  I sent her one more email:

 

 

9. Ms. Denton agreed that the above assessment was possible.  Interestingly, she also advised that she had no affiliation with the film, and that the producers of September Dawn had "insisted that they had never read American Massacre," which Ms. Denton had found hard to believe but took at face value.  

 

10. In sum:

• A 2007 movie included a very controversial statement which was attributed to Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."
• The makers of the film publicly declared that all of the dialogue in the film attributed to Brigham Young was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre, and that the director personally verified this.  Of the stars of the film said the same thing ("{E}very word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre").
• The author of the screenplay claims that she obtained the controversial statement from Sally Denton's book, American Massacre.
• Sally Denton has advised that the makers of the film insisted that they had never read American Massacre.
• Denton's book does not include the controversial quote in question.  
• Instead, Denton's book includes a single quote which includes two words from the controversial quote ("hewn down").  This quote is attributed to Brigham Young in a book by Josiah Gibbs published in 1910, and is a reference to what will happen to those "not heartily on the Lord's side."  
• The 1910 book by Gibbs does not contain the controversial "hewn down" quote attributed to Brigham Young.  So Denton apparently made a mistake here.
• Another book written by Gibbs, Lights and Shadows of Mormonism, includes a quote from a sermon given by Brigham Young to members of the Church on March 2, 1856 in the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City.  This sermon was published in the Journal of Discourses (v. 3, p. 226).
• Only two words from the controversial statement ("hewn down") appear to be properly attributed to Brigham Young.  The remainder of it was apparently fabricated by the makers of September Dawn and fraudulently passed off as authentic.
• An anonymous letter was sent to Sandra Tanner in 2004 quoted, verbatim, the controversial statement used in the film: "I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and the power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the gentiles."  Consequently, it appears that either Carole Whang Schutter wrote the anonymous letter to Sandra Tanner, or else cribbed from it and falsely attributed it to Sally Denton.

Based on the above, I find the controversial "hewn down" quote, which the makers of September Dawn repeatedly declared to be authentic, to almost certainly be a fabrication.

Let's keep in mind that we are only dealing with one quote.  It took quite a while for me to sort out what was wrong with it, but it seemed worth looking into given the explosive nature of the claim.

For another instance of apparent historian malfeasance, take a look at Will Bagley's Blood of the Prophets, where he somehow managed to interpolate (that is, replace) the word "grain" with "allies" in his quotation of Dimick Huntington's journal, and thus radically change the quote, such that he called it "troubling new evidence" which he used to implicate Brigham Young in the Mountain Meadows Massacre (see, e.g., here).

For yet another example of historian malfeasance, take a look at the debacle of Michael Bellesiles' Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture.  

I'm not saying the book under discussion fits with these others.  I haven't read it yet.  But whenever I see a book that purports to present new and troubling/disturbing allegations against the early leaders of the LDS Church, I am going to wait for a while and see how things play out.  I'm not about to give the book the benefit of the doubt simply because it has 1,400 footnotes.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Having written a few historical papers (for my degree, not for anything special) it's true that it is really easy to abuse references.  I never did but I remember one paper (about the US reaction to the Mexican student movement in 1968) where i used over two hundred recently declassified government memos and documents pertaining to the build up to the Tlatelolco Massacre  and thinking how no one was going to go thru all of those papers to see if i was using them correctly or even making sense.   And there were conclusions that i could have made which could have been supported by individual references but which would not have been true taking more than one reference together.

Given how difficult it is for historians to find topics that haven't been done already, and how hard it is to find topics that, even if they haven't been done, more than 12 people will be interested in learning about, new info that makes JS look bad is worth being skeptical about.

[ALarson]

9 hours ago, Nevo said:

Donna Hill's 1977 biography does indeed provide a source for the quote: "James Colin Brewster, Very Important to the Mormon Money Diggers (Springfield: n.p., March 20, 1843). Utah State Hist. Soc. has a photo duplicate of the pamphlet" (see Donna Hill, Joseph Smith: The First Mormon [Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1977], 461n10).

Hill doesn't get the quote quite right, though. What Brewster's pamphlet actually says is "in Kirtland, Joseph Smith sn'r, the Prophet's father, said in Council: 'I know more about money digging, than any man in this generation, for I have been in the business more than thirty years.'"

Brewster isn't reporting this firsthand, since he was only 10 years old at the time, but Joseph Sr. may well have said something like it. For more on Brewster, see Dan Vogel, "James Colin Brewster: The Boy Prophet Who Challenged Mormon Authority," in Differing Visions: Dissenters in Mormon History, ed. Roger D. Launius and Linda Thatcher [Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1994], 120–139). Or there's Wikipedia.

Brewster_To The Mormon Money Diggers.pdf

Thanks Nevo for posting this (I was hoping someone here may own Hill's book and could find the actual source).  

Also, thanks for your interesting post too, Smac!

Edited October 18, 2016 by ALarson

[Johnnie Cake]

My Prediction:

Traditional, Church attending members will live their entire life without having this book even show up on their radar with few exceptions.  Of those that do become aware of the book and actually read it, the book and its conclusions will be dismissed as an anti-Mormon screed and relegated to the same status as books produced by the Tanners

Apostates, Post or Ex Mormon's will hail the book and its conclusions as a hall mark, ground breaking work of history, an important addition to other great works that have shed light on Mormonism's past. It will  adorn the book shelves of these former believers with other books in their libraries written by Brodie, Palmer, Quinn, Smith, Vogel and Larsen

Edited October 18, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[boblloyd91]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My Prediction:

Traditional, Church attending members will live their entire life without having this book even show up on their radar with few exceptions.  Of those that do become aware of the book and actually read it, the book and its conclusions will be dismissed as an anti-Mormon screed and relegated to the same status as books produced by the Tanners

Apostates, Post or Ex Mormon's will hail the book and its conclusions as a hall mark, ground breaking work of history, an important addition to other great works that have shed light on Mormonism's past. It will  adorn the book shelves of these former believers with other books in their libraries written by Brodie, Palmer, Quinn, Smith, Vogel and Larsen

I quite agree with you on this. I tried to give you a rep point but was unable to. I think either extreme is taking the easy road in my opinion, as the reality is often a complex middle. 

[HappyJackWagon]

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

I had an interesting experience a few years ago that made me not be super-duper impressed by scholarship simply because it is footnoted.  Here's the summary:

1. Several years ago a terrible movie came out about the Mountain Meadows Massacre: September Dawn.

2.   The opening line of dialog the trailer for September Dawn is a statement by Brigham Young:

"I am the voice of God.  And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

That seemed like a rather explosive line, all the more so since the movie's director, Christopher Cain, claimed that all of the dialogue in the film attributed to Brigham Young was authentic.  In a New York Times article, "With Only God Left as a Witness," by John Anderson (published on January 22, 2006, available online here),  Mr. Cain stated (emphasis added):

''And by the way,'' Mr. Cain said, '' I didn't write any of his dialogue,'' explaining that it was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre. ''I sat here watching this a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking: 'Maybe I made that up. I don't think he would have said that.' And I went back and pulled it up and, man, he did.'' 

Mr. Cain recently repeated this claim in a radio interview (here is a link to the audio) (emphases added):

CALLER: Before I take issue with ya, I want to say that I agree with you folks that it is important to search out the roots of stuff like this when they happen, even if they happen to one of your own. I am a Mormon, and coming to grips with this has been quite a challenge.  The issue I want to take, is when you look at the trailer, the scene opens with a Brigham Young comment, something to the tune of "I am the Voice of God, and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down". Where did that quote come from? 

HH: Chris Cain?

CC: I don't have the quote in front of me... I can't tell you exactly... I should have brought the quotes with me, but I didn't bring them. 

HH: But you're certain it's a quote from a published and reputable source?

CC: Yes.

CALLER: Well, let me tell you where I'm coming from. I participate regularly in an apologetic message board where the critics and the apologists come together, and both 'sides of the aisle' have tried to search the source of this quote, and we can't find anything older than a couple of years. It seems to have not existed until a couple of years ago. 

HH: Chris, will you send me what you believe to be the source of that, and I'll make sure I post that at Hughhewitt.com? (CC says yes) I hope that works for you, Rob, because we can't get to the bottom of that now, but I'll look up, and I will follow up on it. 

3.  Jon Voight, the star of the film, has made the same claim (emphasis added): 

There's a wonderful book by Will Bagley called The Blood of the Prophets. And people can read this stuff, and hopefully they will. They will see the film and they will go and do their own work on it. But every word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre. And that itself is quite shocking if you, having been introduced to this story... 

4. I still had a hard time believing that such an explosive quote could have only recently emerged, so I did a bit of digging.  The only reference I could find was one of the newsletters from Utah Lighthouse Ministries. Specifically, in the "Letters to the Editor" section, I found this letter from an anonymous author to Sandra Tanner (emphasis added): 

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it. 

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

The response from Sandra Tanner (the head of this anti-Mormon ministry), was as follows:

Sandra's Note: Sorry, not familiar with the quotes...

5. I thought it odd that the above letter was sent about the same time that the screenplay for the film, by Carole Whang Schutter, was apparently being written (the movie came out in 2007).  Frankly, I suspected that Schutter was the author of the above letter to Sandra Tanner.  I also thought it interesting that Schutter's publicist, Helen Cook, tried really, really hard to drum up controversy about the film (see,e.g., here), so I emailed her and asked if Ms. Schutter could provide the source of the "hewn down" quote.  After a bit of wrangling, I received the following forwarded response (through Cook) from Schutter:

 

6. I responded back to Ms. Cook as follows:

 

 

7. I did not receive any further substantive responses from Ms. Cook, so I contacted Sally Denton:

 

 

8. Ms. Denton responded and advised that she had written her book many years ago and no longer has access to the research files for it.  I sent her one more email:

 

 

9. Ms. Denton agreed that the above assessment was possible.  Interestingly, she also advised that she had no affiliation with the film, and that the producers of September Dawn had "insisted that they had never read American Massacre," which Ms. Denton had found hard to believe but took at face value.  

 

10. In sum:

• A 2007 movie included a very controversial statement which was attributed to Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."
• The makers of the film publicly declared that all of the dialogue in the film attributed to Brigham Young was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre, and that the director personally verified this.  Of the stars of the film said the same thing ("{E}very word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre").
• The author of the screenplay claims that she obtained the controversial statement from Sally Denton's book, American Massacre.
• Sally Denton has advised that the makers of the film insisted that they had never read American Massacre.
• Denton's book does not include the controversial quote in question.  
• Instead, Denton's book includes a single quote which includes two words from the controversial quote ("hewn down").  This quote is attributed to Brigham Young in a book by Josiah Gibbs published in 1910, and is a reference to what will happen to those "not heartily on the Lord's side."  
• The 1910 book by Gibbs does not contain the controversial "hewn down" quote attributed to Brigham Young.  So Denton apparently made a mistake here.
• Another book written by Gibbs, Lights and Shadows of Mormonism, includes a quote from a sermon given by Brigham Young to members of the Church on March 2, 1856 in the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City.  This sermon was published in the Journal of Discourses (v. 3, p. 226).
• Only two words from the controversial statement ("hewn down") appear to be properly attributed to Brigham Young.  The remainder of it was apparently fabricated by the makers of September Dawn and fraudulently passed off as authentic.
• An anonymous letter was sent to Sandra Tanner in 2004 quoted, verbatim, the controversial statement used in the film: "I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and the power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the gentiles."  Consequently, it appears that either Carole Whang Schutter wrote the anonymous letter to Sandra Tanner, or else cribbed from it and falsely attributed it to Sally Denton.

Based on the above, I find the controversial "hewn down" quote, which the makers of September Dawn repeatedly declared to be authentic, to almost certainly be a fabrication.

Let's keep in mind that we are only dealing with one quote.  It took quite a while for me to sort out what was wrong with it, but it seemed worth looking into given the explosive nature of the claim.

For another instance of apparent historian malfeasance, take a look at Will Bagley's Blood of the Prophets, where he somehow managed to interpolate (that is, replace) the word "grain" with "allies" in his quotation of Dimick Huntington's journal, and thus radically change the quote, such that he called it "troubling new evidence" which he used to implicate Brigham Young in the Mountain Meadows Massacre (see, e.g., here).

For yet another example of historian malfeasance, take a look at the debacle of Michael Bellesiles' Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture.  

I'm not saying the book under discussion fits with these others.  I haven't read it yet.  But whenever I see a book that purports to present new and troubling/disturbing allegations against the early leaders of the LDS Church, I am going to wait for a while and see how things play out.  I'm not about to give the book the benefit of the doubt simply because it has 1,400 footnotes.  

Thanks,

-Smac

That was truly a horrendous movie. If I were Mr. Cain I wouldn't want to take credit for writing it either

 

[cinepro]

On 10/16/2016 at 7:18 PM, JulieM said:

I don't think this is a big deal.  If that's her name or ancestry, so what?  It doesn't mean much either way at least for me.

And as far as Tanner being a great-great- granddaughter of Brigham Young's, those must number in the 100's (1000's ?) with as many wives and kids as he had 

Nothing special there!

Apparently he passed the "1000 descendant" mark in 1902!

[boblloyd91]

15 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That was truly a horrendous movie. If I were Mr. Cain I wouldn't want to take credit for writing it either

 

I heard it could more accurately be called September Bomb

[boblloyd91]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Apparently he passed the "1000 descendant" mark in 1902!

In that case maybe I could take my descent from William the Conqueror and Edward the 1st (the bad king from Braveheart) as an avenue to more fully reveal the sordid past of the English Monarchy! 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My Prediction:

Traditional, Church attending members will live their entire life without having this book even show up on their radar with few exceptions.  Of those that do become aware of the book and actually read it, the book and its conclusions will be dismissed as an anti-Mormon screed and relegated to the same status as books produced by the Tanners

Apostates, Post or Ex Mormon's will hail the book and its conclusions as a hall mark, ground breaking work of history, an important addition to other great works that have shed light on Mormonism's past. It will  adorn the book shelves of these former believers with other books in their libraries written by Brodie, Palmer, Quinn, Smith, Vogel and Larsen

Have you read the excerpt posted and Nevo's post as well as ALarson's reports?  I would hope critics have better taste if it follows those lines and put it with potboiler romances instead.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

I heard it could more accurately be called September Bomb

September Dawn,  September Yawn, September Bomb.  Yep, that's it, all right.  Per IMDB, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473700/, $11MM budget, slightly over $1M gross (more than half of which was made on its opening weekend: once initial curiosity faded and moviegoers got the memo that, curiosity notwithstanding, it wasn't worth the money to see, curiosity tailed off, real quick).  Sounds like a bomb to me!  

Edited October 19, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[volgadon]

On 10/15/2016 at 1:13 AM, Calm said:

It shows an ongoing and committed interest, though not the level of that interest.

The Stanford Master of Philosophy means she is highly intelligent, can analyze and likely research...but the 1400 footnotes make me wonder if that translates to history for her as often that many footnotes can indicate a lack of discrimination in the quality of ones' sources and instead trying to impress with volume.

Otoh, Rough Stone Rolling is apparently 20% footnotes.

Based on recent interaction with Melonakos, I think that the only way you could tell that she studied philosophy at Stanford is if she told you (and she will). Very primitive and narrow understanding of the correspondence theory of truth; odd arguments (Joseph was a prophet of Calvinism because he preached from the same Bible that a Caalvinist majority in the US read); poor grasp of Mormon history even in areas - like the Kirtland Safety Society - which are central to her thesis; use of non-credible secondary sources like Eidemose's book on Christianity and the constitution; uncritical acceptance of primary sources such as the one accusing Joseph, Sr. of bigamy in Canada, anything that taints by innuendo; and her historical conclusions are entirely theologically driven. I am very curious to read her thesis on James now, to see if it suffers from the same issues. 

[Gervin]

18 minutes ago, volgadon said:

Based on recent interaction with Melonakos, I think that the only way you could tell that she studied philosophy at Stanford is if she told you (and she will). Very primitive and narrow understanding of the correspondence theory of truth; odd arguments (Joseph was a prophet of Calvinism because he preached from the same Bible that a Caalvinist majority in the US read); poor grasp of Mormon history even in areas - like the Kirtland Safety Society - which are central to her thesis; use of non-credible secondary sources like Eidemose's book on Christianity and the constitution; uncritical acceptance of primary sources such as the one accusing Joseph, Sr. of bigamy in Canada, anything that taints by innuendo; and her historical conclusions are entirely theologically driven. I am very curious to read her thesis on James now, to see if it suffers from the same issues. 

It appears that Ms. Melonakos is willing to stick her nose out for her book:

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/product-reviews/194414109X/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm/163-6085119-9905014?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent

Perhaps your rantview could be cobbled into something she might respond to.

[cdowis]

.

Edited November 5, 2016 by cdowis

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, Gervin said:

It appears that Ms. Melonakos is willing to stick her nose out for her book:

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/product-reviews/194414109X/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm/163-6085119-9905014?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent

Perhaps your rantview could be cobbled into something she might respond to.

Are you able to check out her assertion:

 Actually I cited dozens of sources that detailed that Nauvoo became a center for counterfeiting and other crimes. The reviewer only needs to look at the thirteen sources I cited in footnote #1098 on page 366. Included in those sources were Edward Bonney who was Joseph Smith's aide-de-camp and member of the Council of Fifty, and Hosea Stout, who was Joseph Smith's Chief of Police in Nauvoo. 

She is using this as an example of her sterling scholarship.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/14/2016 at 8:48 AM, cdowis said:

" The pre-publication version has received enthusiastic reviews from such leading historians of Mormonism as Sandra Tanner, Will Bagley, Charles Larsen and Dr. James Beverly, Professor of Religion at Tyndale Seminary.

" ...contains over 1,400 footnotes and 100 photos and illustrations.

"Book Synopsis: Using original documents and on-site research in Vermont, New York, Missouri, Michigan, Illinois and Utah, this book begins with figures in 18th- and 19th-century America who developed secret networks to promote counterfeiting and other illegal schemes and often used religion as a cover."  (post on antiMormon web site)

There are presently four views on Amazon, two of which are anonymous.   All are five stars.

"What really happened"   Uh huh. Over 150 years ago and the Warren Commission couldn't tell us what really happened a few years before?   Uh huh.

I guess they had the video cameras rolling on those counterfeiters.  And a student of William James describing "what really happened?"  Inconsistent.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, volgadon said:

Based on recent interaction with Melonakos, I think that the only way you could tell that she studied philosophy at Stanford is if she told you (and she will). Very primitive and narrow understanding of the correspondence theory of truth; odd arguments (Joseph was a prophet of Calvinism because he preached from the same Bible that a Caalvinist majority in the US read); poor grasp of Mormon history even in areas - like the Kirtland Safety Society - which are central to her thesis; use of non-credible secondary sources like Eidemose's book on Christianity and the constitution; uncritical acceptance of primary sources such as the one accusing Joseph, Sr. of bigamy in Canada, anything that taints by innuendo; and her historical conclusions are entirely theologically driven. I am very curious to read her thesis on James now, to see if it suffers from the same issues. 

Very interesting, thank you.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, volgadon said:

Based on recent interaction with Melonakos, I think that the only way you could tell that she studied philosophy at Stanford is if she told you (and she will). Very primitive and narrow understanding of the correspondence theory of truth; odd arguments (Joseph was a prophet of Calvinism because he preached from the same Bible that a Caalvinist majority in the US read); poor grasp of Mormon history even in areas - like the Kirtland Safety Society - which are central to her thesis; use of non-credible secondary sources like Eidemose's book on Christianity and the constitution; uncritical acceptance of primary sources such as the one accusing Joseph, Sr. of bigamy in Canada, anything that taints by innuendo; and her historical conclusions are entirely theologically driven. I am very curious to read her thesis on James now, to see if it suffers from the same issues. 

Holy cow- looks like I nailed it just from that one phrase "what really happened"

I am giving myself a gold star.

[volgadon]

5 hours ago, Gervin said:

It appears that Ms. Melonakos is willing to stick her nose out for her book:

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Combinations-Evidence-Counterfeiting-1800-1847/product-reviews/194414109X/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm/163-6085119-9905014?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent

Perhaps your rantview could be cobbled into something she might respond to.

I already am debating much of this with her, and she has this habit of throwing a bunch  of irrelevant shockers out there when her argument doesn't stick.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/15/2016 at 5:58 PM, cdowis said:

Actually, we all are probably related to church leaders.  No big deal.

If you family line is on familysearch, then go here to see your relationships.  https://www.relativefinder.org/#/relatives/all/user

Not me

I don't even show up on that thing- I don't exist.   My wife on the other hand is related to everyone who is important who ever lived.

There ARE a few converts to the church you know even if Pioneer day and Family Search don't seem to recognize it. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Not me

I don't even show up on that thing- I don't exist.   My wife on the other hand is related to everyone who is important who ever lived.

There ARE a few converts to the church you know even if Pioneer day and Family Search don't seem to recognize it. 

No ancestors on the Mayflower kind of thing?  Don't have to be LDS BIC to have tons of connections, just need early immigrants in one's line.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

No ancestors on the Mayflower kind of thing?  Don't have to be LDS BIC to have tons of connections, just need early immigrants in one's line.

   Ancestors on the Mayflower?  Shirley  you jest- my folks came on a steamer in the 1870's through Ellis Island etc.  I gotta go to Poland to get anything serious.

I am related to Jan Sobieski who stopped the Turks at the Battle of Vienna.  Somehow there aren't many references to him in Mormon data bases. 

My wife on the other hand is a descendant of Mayflower folks, Daughters of the Utah Pioneers, related to many presidents and prophets.  She has a line she ties into a royal line that hits a supposed biblical genealogy and literally (it says) goes back to Adam.  Let me tell you, before computers THAT was one SERIOUS pedigree chart!   She had to lay it out on the floor like a huge map to show it, and it was yards long.

I can do a lot of research on Ancestry, but Family Search for me is a dead end.  And this BYU relative finder is totally plugged into Family Search.  If you are a convert, fergitaboutit.

I take care of Family History and temple stuff in our stake and we have a ton of converts.  When we have a family history fair, we just point the "lifers" to Family search and they don't even have to do research any more- even if they are brand new to family history, in many cases a lot of it is already done for them. Totally different for converts

Edited November 5, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

When I started back in the 70s, all I did was collect others' work and try to figure out how good it was.  We had at least two professional genealogists researching two grandparents' lines.  Massive amounts back to William the Conqueror except for the paternal line and that dies out with my gggrandfather who was a Jew in Baden-Baden, Germany.  I learned shortly before my daughter got to an age where she demanded full 24/7 attention to keep up with her that such Jews often had records kept in the local Protestant church, but 23 years later I haven't got back into it. And all the work I did do is obsolete.

Oh well, it was fun.  Now I need to figure out what to do with thousands of family groups sheets.