thatjimguy Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Why do we like to act as if God would keep families apart in the afterlife? One of my boys at BYU-I talked to me today and has a rather stalwart roomie that used the line "You want to be with your family forever don't you?" Here's the thing; The Celestial Kingdom is a Kingdom of glory is it not? It is not a physical place. Glory is feeling of public praise, honor, fame and pride. So when we say "Live with God in Glory" isn't that what it means? When talk of the other kingdoms is talked about, they act like "Well, you can still visit..." isn't much better. People sound like you are in a prison with visiting rights. All this just feels like using fear to motivate someone to join or obey.
Glenn101 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, thatjimguy said: Why do we like to act as if God would keep families apart in the afterlife? One of my boys at BYU-I talked to me today and has a rather stalwart roomie that used the line "You want to be with your family forever don't you?" Here's the thing; The Celestial Kingdom is a Kingdom of glory is it not? It is not a physical place. Glory is feeling of public praise, honor, fame and pride. So when we say "Live with God in Glory" isn't that what it means? When talk of the other kingdoms is talked about, they act like "Well, you can still visit..." isn't much better. People sound like you are in a prison with visiting rights. All this just feels like using fear to motivate someone to join or obey. Seems that you are looking at this with a "glass half empty" viewpoint. The teachings about the three degrees of glory are the most inspiring and hopeful of anything that I know. Instead of being taught that we will be either with the "sheep" or "goats" and that no matter what, if we come ever so close but do not make it with the sheep, we will burn in hell forever. Contrast that with the three degrees of glory, one of which all of us will attain after paying the price for any unrepented of sins. Yes, I think most of us would like to be with their families forever. But that is also something that is not even taught elsewhere. Reminds me of the primary song, "Families Can be Together Forever." The chorus goes: "I always want to be with my own family, And the Lord has shown me how I can." That is looking at that teaching with winder and hope. The Lord has shown us how we can be with our families forever. He has laid out the plan and requirements, and told us that all who really want to can attain this promise and blessing. Just one more point. My understanding of the Celestial Kingdom is that it is a physical place also, and will be this earth. Glenn 2
Calm Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) Definition of "glory" is also magnificence, nobility, majesty...I think kingdom glory is that definition (we give the other form of glory, but this is the godly attribute). I don't believe it is location so much as awareness and the scriptures speak of some not being able to withstand/exist in awareness of God's glory, so in my view it will be the lower kingdoms will be shielded in their awareness so they are not overwhelmed by being fully aware of God's presence (think of viewing the Sun from earth as opposed to from Mercury or closer. Edited October 2, 2016 by Calm 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 2, 2016 26 minutes ago, thatjimguy said: All this just feels like using fear to motivate someone to join or obey. Why does fear get such a bad rap? I agree it is not a healthy long-term emotional for dedication to something but a healthy dose of fear is often a good reason to start something. If you have a health scare that makes you lose weight. If you have a financial crisis and you sort out your finances. If you almost lose your spouse due to bad behavior and it motivates you to stop. If you find out that somehow your party just nominated Donald Trump you should take steps to make sure this never happens again. Why is fear of hell or being left out such a negative idea? If anything it is insulting to God. "I am willing to offer you supernal peace and joy and give you power over everything and you come to me only because you are afraid of the alternative? It is a good thing God isn't arrogant. I wouldn't keep friends or relationships with people whose starting motivation is that all the alternatives are much more horrible then this one. 5
thatjimguy Posted October 2, 2016 Author Posted October 2, 2016 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Why does fear get such a bad rap? I agree it is not a healthy long-term emotional for dedication to something but a healthy dose of fear is often a good reason to start something. If you have a health scare that makes you lose weight. If you have a financial crisis and you sort out your finances. If you almost lose your spouse due to bad behavior and it motivates you to stop. If you find out that somehow your party just nominated Donald Trump you should take steps to make sure this never happens again. Why is fear of hell or being left out such a negative idea? If anything it is insulting to God. "I am willing to offer you supernal peace and joy and give you power over everything and you come to me only because you are afraid of the alternative? It is a good thing God isn't arrogant. I wouldn't keep friends or relationships with people whose starting motivation is that all the alternatives are much more horrible then this one. Because fear is the tool for evil. You can say the words with flowers off the tongue, but switch the tone, and you got a new ball game.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, thatjimguy said: Because fear is the tool for evil. You can say the words with flowers off the tongue, but switch the tone, and you got a new ball game. With due respect (and this is a sincere question, not simply a "gotcha") I wonder how well anyone who could say such a thing ("fear is the tool for evil") knows the scriptures. Why did Paul admonish us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12)? Why does the writer of Proverbs say that "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10; see also Psalms 111:10)? Why does that same writer also tell us that "fear of the Lord" is equivalent to "hat[ing] evil" (Proverbs 8:13)? Why does that same writer also tell us to "fear the Lord, and depart from evil" (Proverbs 3:7)? Why did Christ Himself admonish us to "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body" (He's referring to God, since, earlier in the verse He contrasted this being with the one who is able only to destroy only the body; Matthew 10:28)? Why did the writer or Ecclesiastes admonish us to "fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man" (Ecclesiastes 12:13)? Why does Luke tell us that the Lord's "mercy is on them that fear Him from generation to generation" (Luke 1:50)? Why does God (in this dispensation, no less!) say "They who do not fear me, I will disturb and cause to tremble" (Doctrine and Covenants 10:56), and "He that feareth me shall be looking for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man" (Doctrine and Covenants 45:39)? To cite just a few. And then there is the great Dan Peterson, who, while I'm sure he would demur to having his words quoted and having scripture cited in the same breath, once said that the trouble with 21st-century moderns is that we have lost our fear, respect, and reverence for the Divine, coming to think of God, instead, as everyone's ever-loving, ever-supportive, never-judgmental Pal. Having said all of that, yes, love is the far better motivator over fear: "If ye love Me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15); "He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is Love" (1 John 4:8); and so on. But when it comes to describing our relationship with and to God, "fear" and "love" often are used synonymously or interchangeably. Edited October 2, 2016 by Kenngo1969 3
Bobbieaware Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, thatjimguy said: Because fear is the tool for evil. You can say the words with flowers off the tongue, but switch the tone, and you got a new ball game. 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom... (Psalms 111) From beginning to end, the scriptures are quite literally full of warnings of dire consequences to those who do not obey the will of Lord -- the kinds of warnings that would cause any normal person to worry or fear. While it's also true that the scriptures teach "perfect love casteth out all fear," it must be understood very few believers become so sanctified in this life that they attain to the ability to love perfectly. And it is for this reason that a good and healthy fear of the Lord's strictness, omniscience and almighty power will continue to be one among many motivators that help the Lord's people to want to fully embrace and live the Gospel. And remember, people aren't supposed to fear God because he's unfair, unjust and cruel, for he most assuredly is not; but we are supposed to have a healthy and normal father-to-child fear of God because his standards are high, because he knows everything there is to know about us, and because he demands genuine sincerity and can't be fooled. Edited October 2, 2016 by Bobbieaware
CV75 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 5 hours ago, thatjimguy said: Why do we like to act as if God would keep families apart in the afterlife? One of my boys at BYU-I talked to me today and has a rather stalwart roomie that used the line "You want to be with your family forever don't you?" What was the specific issue at hand where this was said? The afterlife is a physical place. Supposing all the glories are expressed on the same planet, D&C 88:40 still applies, so those of the like glory will be engaged in like things. Certainly there will be time to visit according to one's willingness and capacity to move and act, and the purpose of the sealing is to allow people to do that according to the best choices they are able to make, but no one will stand in the way of progress! 1
Rain Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) I think a place of glory must mean something more than a place of praise and honor if people have needed to be transfigured to see God. I do think though that we really don't understand what it is like to be with our family in eternity. Just a few generations and the place gets too small. Or what if my daughter marries someone from China. How does she be with her husband and they both "be" with their families. Both stand on the edge of their families? And then what if her son marries someone from Africa? No, there has to be something more to this than physical proximity. Edited October 2, 2016 by Rain 3
Glenn101 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, Rain said: I think a place of glory must mean something more than a place of praise and honor if people have needed to be transfigured to see God. I do think though that we really don't understand what it is like to be with our family in eternity. Just a few generations and the place gets too small. Or what if my daughter marries someone from China. How does she be with her husband and they both "be" with their families. Both stand on the edge of their families? And then what if her son marries someone from Africa? No, there had to be something more to this than physical proximity. In all honesty, the concept completely blows my mind when I try to plumb its depths. It is something that I will have to take on faith that it will work and that it will be worth it beyonf anything I can imagine. That last part is something that I think too many do not grasp. "Tomorrow is out of sight" versus "I want my money and I want it now." Glenn 1
notHagoth7 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) In recent threads, I've seen a number of competing claims as to what eternal glory supposedly means (praise, honor, majesty, power, etc.): Meanwhile, I find scripture often speaking of something different: "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth." Likewise, "This is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Applied intelligence towards a specific end/work?) A parallel to BYU's slogan/motto?: "Enter to learn, go forth to serve." Which reminds me distinctly of the counsel in places such as D&C sections 88 and 90 to study/learn/teach from a broad swath of things, to be used for the building of the kingdom - to benefit others. So are there divergent streams of thought out there as to what eternal glory is/will be? Or does the assertion from Francis Bacon 300 years ago, "knowledge itself is power", bridge the gap? Thoughts? Edited October 2, 2016 by notHagoth7 1
Curious_About_Everything Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Does this speak to the idea that the ends justify the means? If you love God and obey, you win Celestial Glory! If you fear God and obey, you win Celestial Glory! Different method, same result. The ends justify the means?
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) Have any of us ever found ourselves in a place where we feel uncomfortable because (whether as a matter of perception or as an objective reality) we're not (in one way or another) as good as everyone else there? I daresay most all of us have. This is not necessarily scriptural, but take it for what it's worth. It does further the discussion, or at least it gives us something to think about. Someone (Brad Wilcox, maybe?) once said that we perceive God as a stern taskmaster, who, when we return to His presence, will be the one to explain all of the reasons why we cannot stay there. In reality, He is (and perhaps will be) the one who is pleading with us to do what will be necessary to return and to stay in His presence, while we will be the ones saying, "Get me out of here!" Edited October 2, 2016 by Kenngo1969 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: 10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom... (Psalms 111) ... A very wise man beat you to the punch.
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 7 hours ago, thatjimguy said: Because fear is the tool for evil. You can say the words with flowers off the tongue, but switch the tone, and you got a new ball game. No, it is not evil though some uses of it are. Some applications of love are evil. 3
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Curious_About_Everything said: Does this speak to the idea that the ends justify the means? If you love God and obey, you win Celestial Glory! If you fear God and obey, you win Celestial Glory! Different method, same result. The ends justify the means? No, the latter is unlikely to save (if fear is used in the general sense we use) but I have seen the latter turn into the former enough to know that good can come of it. 1
cinepro Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: Why does fear get such a bad rap? I agree it is not a healthy long-term emotional for dedication to something but a healthy dose of fear is often a good reason to start something. If you have a health scare that makes you lose weight. If you have a financial crisis and you sort out your finances. If you almost lose your spouse due to bad behavior and it motivates you to stop. If you find out that somehow your party just nominated Donald Trump you should take steps to make sure this never happens again. Why is fear of hell or being left out such a negative idea? If anything it is insulting to God. "I am willing to offer you supernal peace and joy and give you power over everything and you come to me only because you are afraid of the alternative? It is a good thing God isn't arrogant. I wouldn't keep friends or relationships with people whose starting motivation is that all the alternatives are much more horrible then this one. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Sounds like it deserves the bad rap. 1
Bobbieaware Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 28 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: A very wise man beat you to the punch. ... and you are a very wise man. 1
Curious_About_Everything Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: No, the latter is unlikely to save (if fear is used in the general sense we use) but I have seen the latter turn into the former enough to know that good can come of it. If fear is unlikely to save, what is the purpose for having scriptures imploring people to fear God? If you want them to feel loved and love in return, how does fear accomplish that? "I love you my child. Go forth and fear me."
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 1 minute ago, cinepro said: Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Sounds like it deserves the bad rap. But if we are talking about the fall of Anakin it is equally true that you could make love the path to the Dark Side and have love lead to fear and then continue through the rest. Basically LDS are Sith no matter how you spin it. We even believe in absolutes.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Curious_About_Everything said: Does this speak to the idea that the ends justify the means? If you love God and obey, you win Celestial Glory! If you fear God and obey, you win Celestial Glory! Different method, same result. The ends justify the means? No, no one is suggesting that the ends justify the means, because you're invoking a false dichotomy. When describing our proper relationship to God, the scriptures often use the words love and fear synonymously. 1
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Curious_About_Everything said: If fear is unlikely to save, what is the purpose for having scriptures imploring people to fear God? If you want them to feel loved and love in return, how does fear accomplish that? "I love you my child. Go forth and fear me." The scriptural word translated as fear does not always mean what we do when we use the word. Sometimes it does but not always. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 The glory of God is intelligence or truth and light. A man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge. Any separation will not be done as punishment but because some will use their agency to reject truth, refuse to learn by following laws and ordinances (as Pres. Uchtdorf said), and therefore will simply not possess sufficient light and truth to enter that glory. It won't be God keeping families apart. We will do that all on our own. We cannot go to University without being willing to finish high school.
Curious_About_Everything Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The scriptural word translated as fear does not always mean what we do when we use the word. Sometimes it does but not always. If the concept of fearing God is understood to mean one should worry about their actions for fear of the consequences God will impose upon them... ...if this translation is correct even only some of the time... ...is the question still viable? How can I feel your love when you teach me to be afraid of you?
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Curious_About_Everything said: How can I feel your love when you teach me to be afraid of you? Is "feeling loved" more or less important than actually being loved? 2
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