Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) Elder D. Todd Christofferson, in his general conference sermon, is providing a very lucid explanation of why the unscriptural term "unconditional love" can be misleading when applied to divine love and lead to mistaken notions, such as, "God will save me regardless of my behavior, because, after all, His love is 'unconditional."" Edited October 1, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 5
Tacenda Posted October 1, 2016 Posted October 1, 2016 Helen Keller is my hero. I included one of her quotes in my mother's funeral DVD.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2016 Author Posted October 1, 2016 14 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Helen Keller is my hero. I included one of her quotes in my mother's funeral DVD. Helen Keller is amazing. I can scarcely wrap my mind around what she accomplished, given her obstacles. 1
Five Solas Posted October 1, 2016 Posted October 1, 2016 Reformed Baptist pastor and theologian, John Piper, on the question "Is God's Love Unconditional?" -- http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/is-gods-love-unconditional Be interesting to know if there's any overlap with what Christofferson had to say. --Erik
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 5 hours ago, Five Solas said: Reformed Baptist pastor and theologian, John Piper, on the question "Is God's Love Unconditional?" -- http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/is-gods-love-unconditional Be interesting to know if there's any overlap with what Christofferson had to say. --Erik Not really. 1
JAHS Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Elder Nelson gave the same kind of talk back in 2003. Divine Love "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional." 1
Johnnie Cake Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Nope the mormon gods love is conditional.... unlike my love for my own children and spouse...which is unconditional though there are things they could do that I would not love, I would still love them irrespective.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2016 Author Posted October 2, 2016 28 minutes ago, JAHS said: Elder Nelson gave the same kind of talk back in 2003. Divine Love "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional." Yes, I remember it well. Elder Christofferson's talk was very comparable to it.
Popular Post JAHS Posted October 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Nope the mormon gods love is conditional.... unlike my love for my own children and spouse...which is unconditional though there are things they could do that I would not love, I would still love them irrespective. Of course you would still love them and so does God. Conditional or unconditional has nothing to do with the degree of love you have for your child; it has to do with what you allow your child to do or what you give them. "Dad, if you really love me you will buy that car for me instead of making me earn the money for it". If true love were unconditional you would just give your kid whatever he wants, just because he wants it. God loves us perfectly no matter what we do, good or bad, but He can't just give all His children eternal life if they are disobedient and unworthy of it. 8
Popular Post The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Nope the mormon gods love is conditional.... unlike my love for my own children and spouse...which is unconditional though there are things they could do that I would not love, I would still love them irrespective. That is not what he said. He said that in ways his love is unconditional but there is a danger in using that terminology because some of the underlying connotations associated with the word "unconditional" are used to justify sin. Nice try though. Maybe next time you should view the source material before commenting on it. Edited October 2, 2016 by The Nehor 9
CV75 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Elder D. Todd Christofferson, in his general conference sermon, is providing a very lucid explanation of why the unscriptural term "unconditional love" can be misleading when applied to divine love and lead to mistaken notions, such as, "God will save me regardless of my behavior, because, after all, His love is 'unconditional."" I thought it went well with Elder Cook's talk. While nothing can separate us from the love of God, we can look beyond the mark (Christ) and not be feeling, benefiting from, or sharing it. Which seems to be what Romans 8:39 is saying. Love is maximal when it's mutual, and that mutuality is the condition that must be met. Edited October 2, 2016 by CV75 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Nope the mormon gods love is conditional.... unlike my love for my own children and spouse...which is unconditional though there are things they could do that I would not love, I would still love them irrespective. God still loves us. What he can not do is permit any degree of our unrighteousness in his Kingdom. 1
boblloyd91 Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 17 hours ago, Five Solas said: Reformed Baptist pastor and theologian, John Piper, on the question "Is God's Love Unconditional?" -- http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/is-gods-love-unconditional Be interesting to know if there's any overlap with what Christofferson had to say. --Erik No, there wasn't any discussion on election. 1
Gray Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Elder D. Todd Christofferson, in his general conference sermon, is providing a very lucid explanation of why the unscriptural term "unconditional love" can be misleading when applied to divine love and lead to mistaken notions, such as, "God will save me regardless of my behavior, because, after all, His love is 'unconditional."" Unconditional love is scriptural. See the teachings of Jesus on loving those who hate you. That's love without conditions. Furthermore, it's settled LDS doctrine that God will save just about everyone, regardless of their behavior. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1971/10/love-unconditional?lang=eng&_r=1
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 Unconditional love is no where in the Scriptures. But there is this "If you love me keep my commandments". Hebrews 12:6-7King James Version (KJV) 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 2
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 31 minutes ago, Gray said: Unconditional love is scriptural. See the teachings of Jesus on loving those who hate you. That's love without conditions. Furthermore, it's settled LDS doctrine that God will save just about everyone, regardless of their behavior. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1971/10/love-unconditional?lang=eng&_r=1 Which is why unconditional love is true in a sense but sinners can and do use the term to justify their sins which is why he cautioned us about using it. It causes problems in the same way "God is love" does. While true some pervert it into "love is God". 2
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted October 2, 2016 Scripture tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of God. That is the only way it is unconditional. The idea that God's love will allow him to give us a pass on violation of law is not scriptural. We may very well separate ourselves from God for eternity, never to be able to enter his presence. This does not make his love conditional. 5
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2016 Author Posted October 2, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Nope the mormon gods love is conditional.... unlike my love for my own children and spouse...which is unconditional though there are things they could do that I would not love, I would still love them irrespective. Elder Ronald A. Rasband right now is giving a talk that answers this objection. By the way, in the movie "The Ten Commandments" (the older one starring Charleton Heston), Pharaoh is obliged to acknowledge at long last, "Moses's god is God." Similarly, I affirm that the so-called "Mormon God" is God. Edited October 2, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 3
Five Solas Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 17 hours ago, The Nehor said: Not really. What are you suggesting, Nehor, that Christofferson's biblical exegesis wasn't up to Piper's level of rigor? I'll happily weigh in myself, once we get a transcript (I have a tough time staying focused on video). ;0) --Erik
Scott Lloyd Posted October 2, 2016 Author Posted October 2, 2016 From Elder Dale G. Renlund of the Twelve (another favorite of mine, partly because he and I had the same mission president in Sweden), there comes yet another talk in this conference that addresses the matter of God loving us with a perfect love that does not allow the least degree of allowance for sin. 1
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2016 Posted October 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Five Solas said: What are you suggesting, Nehor, that Christofferson's biblical exegesis wasn't up to Piper's level of rigor? I'll happily weigh in myself, once we get a transcript (I have a tough time staying focused on video). ;0) --Erik I am suggesting they went nowhere near the same way with it. 3
JAHS Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: 21 hours ago, JAHS said: Elder Nelson gave the same kind of talk back in 2003. Divine Love "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional." Yes, I remember it well. Elder Christofferson's talk was very comparable to it. Interesting that Elder Nelson himself said the following in a 1991 talk: "Godliness characterizes each of you who truly loves the Lord. You are constantly mindful of the Savior’s atonement and rejoice in His unconditional love." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/11/these-were-our-examples?lang=eng It just shows how our Apostles are also constantly learning and growing in the gospel themselves. Edited October 3, 2016 by JAHS
JLHPROF Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: From Elder Dale G. Renlund of the Twelve (another favorite of mine, partly because he and I had the same mission president in Sweden), there comes yet another talk in this conference that addresses the matter of God loving us with a perfect love that does not allow the least degree of allowance for sin. I have watched Elder Christofferson, Elder Rasband, and Elder Renlund ALL clearly differentiate between unconditional love and tolerating sin. It has been a definite theme with the apostles this GC. Either the theme was collaborated on (something we know they don't do) or they have all had this topic strongly on their minds. (Of course given the trend towards the false idea of love always equaling full embrace and acceptance that is gaining popularity). All three talks on the eternal all consuming love of God as compared to the non-scriptural idea of "unconditional love" have been just excellent. Also the several talks on healing, missionary work, and faith crises seemed interconnected. Kind of like this conference was focused on reaching out to others, but in a correct way. Edited October 3, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
Calm Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Interesting that Elder Nelson himself said the following in a 1991 talk: "Godliness characterizes each of you who truly loves the Lord. You are constantly mindful of the Savior’s atonement and rejoice in His unconditional love." https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/11/these-were-our-examples?lang=eng It just shows how our Apostles are also constantly learning and growing in the gospel themselves. I think the use of "unconditional love" has changed a bit over the years, it used to mean love for who they were and not for what they could do for you, etc. while today it comes across in many situations is loving without regard to what the individual is at all. Simple existence is all that is attached to love and it becomes interchangeable rather than a respect for the uniqueness, imo (though some are good at keeping that focus). So I can see why leaders have become more cautious in the usage of it, much like "free agency". 2
JAHS Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, Calm said: I think the use of "unconditional love" has changed a bit over the years, it used to mean love for who they were and not for what they could do for you, etc. while today it comes across in many situations is loving without regard to what the individual is at all. Simple existence is all that is attached to love and it becomes interchangeable rather than a respect for the uniqueness, imo (though some are good at keeping that focus). So I can see why leaders have become more cautious in the usage of it, much like "free agency". Yes that could be. In a sense I think God's love for us can be called unconditional in the sense that no matter what we do, good or bad, He will always feel love for us; but conditional in the sense that even though He will always love us He can not excuse unrepentant sin or give a person eternal life if they are not worthy. 2
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