Elder D. Todd Chrostofferson: "unconditional love"

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

 

Actually what Scott's post said was "But the receipt of that love is conditioned on our asking for, seeking and receiving it."
Many of us find ourselves incapable of receiving God's love.
This is really not confusing.
It is the difference between God's love for us (how he feels towards us) versus our access to God (our ability to receive the blessings of that love).
There is nothing you can ever do that will stop God loving you.  There is plenty that you can do to prevent being able to receive that love.

GOD'S LOVE WILL ALWAYS BE THERE (the only way it is unconditional)
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OUR CHOICES CAN SEPARATE US FROM GOD, BUT NOT HIS LOVE (making our access to that love conditional)
D&C 76:111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

 

Figure out how both these scriptures are true and you will understand.
 

So he gives it to us unconditionally but we can't get it unless we repent and stuff? 

Then what's the point?  or the difference for that matter? 

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So he gives it to us unconditionally but we can't get it unless we repent and stuff? 

Then what's the point?  or the difference for that matter? 

Uhh...motivation for us to do better?
Which allows God to be more successful at his work - bringing to pass our immortality and eternal life.

Also, the point is that his love never removes, so whenever in our rebellious natures we finally get around to repenting and stuff it is sitting there ready for us to access.
Kind of like the atonement - always there, "for God so loved the world", but up to us to make use of it.

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So he gives it to us unconditionally but we can't get it unless we repent and stuff? 

Then what's the point?  or the difference for that matter? 

One condition of love that makes it functionally unconditional is that it is mutual. This cannot be the case unless we repent and stuff. The point is that we become like Him and share the same unconditional love He possesses. Any difference is found in context, which i think was explained in the first few sentences of the talk  by saying in essence, "In some ways, His love is not unconditional."

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

One condition of love that makes it functionally unconditional is that it is mutual. This cannot be the case unless we repent and stuff.

Ooh, I like this.
Can love be fully unconditional unless it is mutual?
Have to think on that for a bit.

[stemelbow]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Uhh...motivation for us to do better?
Which allows God to be more successful at his work - bringing to pass our immortality and eternal life.

I'm struggling with understanding how this works.  God loves everyone, but most of us don't get loved or receive it, which I still dont' quite get, because we simply don't repent.  Even plenty of us who repent at some point probably aren't repenting enough, as if we'll be he who is rejected in the end thinking we did enough.  Why can't anyone feel of His love?  Why the need for the condition in order to feel it? 

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Also, the point is that his love never removes, so whenever in our rebellious natures we finally get around to repenting and stuff it is sitting there ready for us to access.
Kind of like the atonement - always there, "for God so loved the world", but up to us to make use of it.

In the end, I just don't agree.  I think He loves all and any one of us can feel it, even without realizing whose behind it.  Receiving it just sounds weird to me. 

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I did not say that everyone outside the church is oblivious and I am not talking about those who weep and mourn over their sins secure in the love of God. We are told those people will be comforted.

I am talking about those who think the love of God is license to sin. We see this in human relationships where some take the love of a spouse or the love of a child or parent and use that love as a kind of anchor to misbehave and spread misery.

Thank you.  I understand what you mean now.  I hold myself accountable for all my mistakes in life..and try to overcome.

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm struggling with understanding how this works.  God loves everyone, but most of us don't get loved or receive it, which I still dont' quite get, because we simply don't repent.  Even plenty of us who repent at some point probably aren't repenting enough, as if we'll be he who is rejected in the end thinking we did enough.  Why can't anyone feel of His love?  Why the need for the condition in order to feel it? 

God loves everyone always. Period. There are no conditions on that. Everyone can feel His love always. Period. But the devine love we talk about that is conditional invloves what He is willing to do for us. He loves us enough that His desire is for all to have eternal life; the condition is that we have to be worthy of obtaining eternal life. He is not going to just give it to us because He loves us and because we want it. 

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Why can't anyone feel of His love?  Why the need for the condition in order to feel it?

In the end, I just don't agree.  I think He loves all and any one of us can feel it, even without realizing whose behind it.  Receiving it just sounds weird to me.

In order to feel loved by anyone, you kind of need to have access to them.
The more access you get, the more love you can feel.
Doesn't place any conditions on the amount of love that person has for you.

He does love all, and any one of us can feel it.  We just have to draw near to him.

This is not a strange concept.  Why do you love your spouse?  Your child?  Why is that love stronger than the love you have for the average co-worker or new acquaintance?  Of course the amount of love felt has a direct relationship with nearness.

God's love for us is unconditional because he holds us in the palm of his hand, cares for us, watches over us.  We are always in his heart.
Our ability to feel God's love is dependent upon how near we are willing to draw to him, on how much we allow him to be in our heart.
You may not agree. 

Moses 5:18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.
and 28  And it came to pass that Cain took one of his brothers’ daughters to wife, and they loved Satan more than God.

So God's love for his child Cain was unconditional.  Do we think God in any way stopped loving Cain? 
Cain KNEW God (according to some teachings) face to face.  And rejected God's love.
After doing this did Cain feel loved?  Did Cain love God?  Will Cain have access to God's presence again?
Did ANY of that change the fact that God loved Cain no matter what?  No, of course it didn't.
 

Edited October 3, 2016 by JLHPROF

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

Everyone can feel His love always. Period.

...except someone who chooses to cut themselves off from that love.  Disobedience to the commandments and hardening your heart can do this.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

There is nothing you can ever do that will stop God loving you.  There is plenty that you can do to prevent being able to receive that love.

I differ on that section that I bolded.  In theory I believe there are things we can do that prevent our ability to receive God's love.  I just am not comfortable stating what those things are exactly.  In fact, I think we run into trouble if we try to say that because someone makes a particular choice, or sin of somekind that God will be prevented from loving or blessing them.  I think this places a limit on God.  

I don't think any of us should be in the business of limiting God.  I don't like saying that we should avoid making choices because God won't be able to show his love to us.  I think this is a poor motivational tactic, and I don't think its accurate or knowable.  I think we should make choices because those are good choices, not out of fear of God.  I realize that fear is a good motivator.  I just think its an immature motivator that developed adults should move past into more appropriate motivations for making good choices.  

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

 I think this places a limit on God.

I don't think any of us should be in the business of limiting God.

Any limits ascribed to God come from the word of God.
 

Quote

 I think we run into trouble if we try to say that because someone makes a particular choice, or sin of some kind that God will be prevented from loving or blessing them.

Again, nothing can prevent God from loving us.  Only we can prevent ourselves from feeling that love.
Blessing is a different issue altogether.

[Johnnie Cake]

NOTE:  If I had the ability to delete my contribution to this thread I would delete it.  But my limited status does not allow edits once a post has been made and time has passed

[hope_for_things]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Any limits ascribed to God come from the word of God.

Limits come from interpretations of the word of God.  Flawed, biased, culturally influenced, interpretations.  I don't feel comfortable proclaiming that any interpretation properly represents the mind and will of God.  

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Limits come from interpretations of the word of God.  Flawed, biased, culturally influenced, interpretations.  I don't feel comfortable proclaiming that any interpretation properly represents the mind and will of God.

I knew you'd say that. 

I'd quote you scripture, but you'd dismiss it.

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I knew you'd say that. 

I'd quote you scripture, but you'd dismiss it.

:-)  I'm getting too predicable.  And I would likely challenge any scriptural interpretations, you're right. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So he gives it to us unconditionally but we can't get it unless we repent and stuff? 

Then what's the point?  or the difference for that matter? 

To treat us like adults (or rather those learning to be adults) rather than toddlers who get bathed, diaper changes, put to bed, and given foods without being able to give input or robots that have to accept and attempt to process whatever is given them.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Ooh, I like this.
Can love be fully unconditional unless it is mutual?
Have to think on that for a bit.

I'm thinking that love isn't fully love unless it's mutual, or when given, received an shared between the two parties. That is the conditional nature of love. It becomes functionally unconditional when both parties have perfect love (or as much love as each respectively can have) for each other. Until then, whenever one party falters, the conditions for love are broken, and God will not override our choice to love Him (or not).

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, JAHS said:

God loves everyone always. Period. There are no conditions on that. Everyone can feel His love always. Period. But the devine love we talk about that is conditional invloves what He is willing to do for us. He loves us enough that His desire is for all to have eternal life; the condition is that we have to be worthy of obtaining eternal life. He is not going to just give it to us because He loves us and because we want it. 

Where we end up is different than whether He loves us or not.  I don't see the two tied, and I think that's the big difference between us. 

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

In order to feel loved by anyone, you kind of need to have access to them.
The more access you get, the more love you can feel.
Doesn't place any conditions on the amount of love that person has for you.

He does love all, and any one of us can feel it.  We just have to draw near to him.

This is not a strange concept.  Why do you love your spouse?  Your child?  Why is that love stronger than the love you have for the average co-worker or new acquaintance?  Of course the amount of love felt has a direct relationship with nearness.

God's love for us is unconditional because he holds us in the palm of his hand, cares for us, watches over us.  We are always in his heart.
Our ability to feel God's love is dependent upon how near we are willing to draw to him, on how much we allow him to be in our heart.
You may not agree. 

Moses 5:18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.
and 28  And it came to pass that Cain took one of his brothers’ daughters to wife, and they loved Satan more than God.

So God's love for his child Cain was unconditional.  Do we think God in any way stopped loving Cain? 
Cain KNEW God (according to some teachings) face to face.  And rejected God's love.
After doing this did Cain feel loved?  Did Cain love God?  Will Cain have access to God's presence again?
Did ANY of that change the fact that God loved Cain no matter what?  No, of course it didn't.
 

Ok.  "m still not sure it makes sense in light of what you said about us not receiving it, or whatever.  But I don't think we're that far off in the end. 

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Where we end up is different than whether He loves us or not.  I don't see the two tied, and I think that's the big difference between us. 

The fact you don't see the two tied is actually a good thing, but some people do see it that way and think that since God has unconditional love for them He won't send them to Hell, even though they know that's where they should go.

Edited October 4, 2016 by JAHS

[Gray]

On 10/3/2016 at 11:36 AM, The Nehor said:

They can feel secure that that will always be true. They should be secure in general because it is true. I would find it disgusting if a serial rapist felt secure because "God loved him". While true there is no security for him in that status nor is there security in it for lesser sins which is what some try to twist God's love into.

I look at the life of Jesus. To those who know their sins matter and seek help he helped. To those who knew they sinned and felt that pain but would not change he felt sorrow. Those who denied their own sins or who believed they did not matter he used as object lessons and insulted them. He did not bother with teaching them or cajoling them. They would seem to be the lost. The supremely ignorant who preach the love of God as a non-judgemental always-there comfort blankie are in the same state.

A stint in hell will cure most of them of their delusions but those delusions will cost them Eternal Life.

I don't think you can scare people into being moral. People how have been built up have the foundation to change. You can never change by hating yourself for being imperfect. 

[Gray]

On 10/3/2016 at 0:18 PM, ERayR said:

Not correct or are you going to stand there, smiling, and let him, who hates you, continue to punch you in the nose?

Jesus said turn the other cheek to those who strike you. Perhaps it's a bit more difficult to turn the other nose, but still...

[Gray]

On 10/3/2016 at 0:30 PM, ERayR said:

I feel very secure that God will always love me but I am not so secure in thinking he will let me get away with anything I want. 

Is there any point where you could cause God to stop loving you? 

[JLHPROF]

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

Is there any point where you could cause God to stop loving you? 

Nope.
But he still won't let me into his presence unclean.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I don't think you can scare people into being moral. People how have been built up have the foundation to change. You can never change by hating yourself for being imperfect. 

But you can hate your own sins.