1844 (Martyrdom) in Bible Prophecy

[notHagoth7]

On 9/17/2016 at 10:17 PM, notHagoth7 said:

...If it might be helpful for others, years back I wrote up a comparison of the verbiage in Rev 11 (which contains an 1844 timeline) and that in Daniel 8 (which contains a second corroborating 1844 timeline). The two passages are companion, parallel prophecies, both in symbolism and in time.

...Is that response somewhat helpful?

From Stargazer in the Bible Says Ok to read book of Mormon thread:

Quote

Now, while I find your ideas along this line intriguing, I confess that I feel that they are more along the lines of "the Gospel according to notHagoth7" than something I would consider authoritative....

I don't consider such things to be "the gospel"...according to me, or to anyone.

The gospel is instead *clearly* defined elsewhere.

All this is merely an onramp and/or bulwark for such.

 

Also, as to the fact that you don't feel what I have offered is *authoritative*, I'm AOK with that. 

The more relevant issue, for which there is no need to respond here, is whether you feel/conclude that such things are *true*...and what you intend to do about it.

Was Joseph's mission foretold in scripture?

I am certain that it was. In an almost-surprising number of places.

Edited September 20, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

(Another question from Stargazer)

Quote

...Is this your own idea, or are you repeating an argument someone else has made?

That depends entirely on what you mean.

Did thousands of Christians and Muslims believe that 1844 was the divinely-appointed termination of Bible timelines *generations* ago? Yes. And, over the years, I've had the privilege of studying a number of the writings they left behind.

Do millions of non-Mormon people still believe and teach such about 1844? Yes. And I've enjoyed the privilege to study and worship alongside a number of them. Amazing people.

Did anyone teach that such timelines/teachings were actually a testament of Joseph's mission? No. At least not that I was aware of...back when I published the first small book a couple of decades ago.

Do I believe that the premise (that the 1844 timelines refer to the Restoration) was somehow "my own" idea? No. Not quite that arrogant....not yet at least - but who knows, I might just get there yet. ;0)

If interested, in the first book, I explained when, how, and from whence that premise dawned.

Do I believe that the idea and the step-by-step Guidance to write at some length on the topic decades ago were my own? No. And double no. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by notHagoth7
added reference to online book

[RevTestament]

Here is another problem with your interpretation - the beginning.

 8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 13 ¶Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall bethe vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The He goat is the realm of Grecia under Alexander the Great:

 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

The little horn is one of the "four notable ones": which "waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land." This is the Seleucid Empire of Alexander's general, Seleucus. Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled "by him the daily sacrifice was taken away." He raided the temple, and ended the daily sacrifice and set up a huge idol to worship. So HE is the beginning of the 2300 days or when the temple was desecrated was during his reign. 2300 days from that time brings us well into the seventh seal ie into the 22nd century - far beyond 1844. So you are not only wrong in the beginning or start date, but in your ending date....

Further, the prophecy is regarding someone who will rise up from the realm of Grecia or the ancient area of the Seleucid Empire - not America - whose dark claims will be broken by a resurrection event...

[notHagoth7]

 I'm familiar with that interpretation. It happens to be one of *several* competing  paradigms in circulation.

 

I respect your right to adopt that interpretation as your pick of the litter. My hope is that if any of us don't see eye to eye on such things, that our disagreement can at least be agreeable.

 

Do you have any interest in hearing another approach to that passage?

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by notHagoth7

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

 I'm familiar with that interpretation. It happens to be one of *several* competing  paradigms in circulation.

 

I respect your right to adopt that interpretation as your pick of the litter. My hope is that if any of us don't see eye to eye on such things, that our disagreement can at least be agreeable.

 

Do you have any interest in hearing another approach to that passage?

 

 

I am very interested. Please continue.

[theplains]

Besides Joseph Smith, were any other Christians killed immediately before or after the Carthage Jail
incident?  Or was Smith killed for some non-faith activity?

Thanks,
Jim

[notHagoth7]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Besides Joseph Smith, were any other Christians killed immediately before or after the Carthage Jail incident?  

Good question.

Rather than compile a lengthy list of every Christian who might have been killed in that general timeframe, there's a much more effective way to thin the herd of candidates (verse 6).

The two witnesses were foretold to come, wielding very specific power:

1. The power to shut the heavens that they would not rain.
2. The power both to turn waters to blood and to smite the earth with plagues

The first item is a reference to Elijah, who *did* shut the heavens that they did not rain.

The second item is a reference to Moses, who turned the Nile to blood and pronounced several plagues on Egypt

In short, the two latter-day witnesses would have the power and authority of Moses *and* Elijah.

The difference being that although verse 6 says they would wield the same authority, it actually doesn't say that they would exercise it in the same manner.

(It might be worthwhile to reflect on other aspects of the ministries of Elijah and Moses.)

Does that help thin the herd of candidates, at least a wee bit?

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Or was Smith killed for some non-faith activity?

We can’t chalk up the motivation of each mob member or each mob instigator to any single motive.

• Some resented what happened with the printing press (in my opinion, Joseph ordered it knowing full well the indignation it would spark - and the eventual outcome)

• Some resented what they had heard of marital practices.

• Some resented the growing political influence of Mormons in Illinois in general (and Joseph’s influence more specifically).

• Some asserted that the mere teaching about the kingdom of God mentioned in Daniel was somehow treason.

• Some feared that the Saints might upset the local and national balance in the struggle over slavery, even more so with Joseph’s recent presidential platform which called for the freeing of every single slave in the country, and which provided an honorable means to do so. Considering Elijah Lovejoy’s fate nearby a mere 7 years earlier, I believe that Joseph knowingly jumped on that grenade too. (He was thereby, among other things, an early civil rights martyr.) If only American had listened...even if they had done so after his death...it might have spared so many lives lost in Civil War, so many lives lost and wasted since than to civil unrest and grinding injustices and resentments. Generations would have grown up knowing America had redeemed them from slavery.

• And so on….

There was no single reason why Joseph and Hyrum were killed.

Except to fulfill prophecy...and thereby to glorify the Father.

Edited September 20, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

Besides Joseph Smith, were any other Christians killed immediately before or after the Carthage Jail
incident?  Or was Smith killed for some non-faith activity?

Thanks,
Jim

Some people claim that Joseph was killed because he was running for President in 1844 and had a chance of winning -- that it was a political assassination.

Others say it was because he was a prophet of God who had to seal his words in blood.

[Hagoth]

And some say it was because he was borrowing secret masonic rites for his own purposes and revealing them - gasp - to women.

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

And some say it was because he was borrowing secret masonic rites...

Answered here.

[theplains]

On 20/09/2016 at 0:00 AM, notHagoth7 said:

There was no single reason why Joseph and Hyrum were killed.

Why didn't the mob kill other Christians the day before, the day of, or the day after the Carthage Jail incident?

Jim

[notHagoth7]

6 minutes ago, theplains said:

Why didn't the mob kill other Christians the day before, the day of, or the day after the Carthage Jail incident?

I suggest reading Elder Oaks' Carthage Conspiracy.

Then you'll be free to draw/share your own conclusions.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

35 minutes ago, theplains said:

Why didn't the mob kill other Christians the day before, the day of, or the day after the Carthage Jail incident?

From your question, I'm also guessing we might not have quite connected regarding the intended point of my reply to your other post two days ago. If so, did you have questions/comments about my reply to you? (If so, discussing/resolving them might likewise resolve today's closely-related query.)

Edited September 22, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/19/2016 at 4:59 PM, theplains said:

Besides Joseph Smith, were any other Christians killed immediately before or after the Carthage Jail
incident?  Or was Smith killed for some non-faith activity?

Thanks,
Jim

 

Abolitionist newspaper editor Elijah P. Lovejoy was killed in 1837 by a pro-slavery mob in Alton, Illinois.  They also destroyed his press.  Does that ring a bell?

[Robert F. Smith]

Why Did Moroni Deliver the Plates on the Jewish New Year?

Book of Mormon Central, “Why Did Moroni Deliver the Plates on September 22? (Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith, front of 2013 edition of the Book of Mormon; cf. Joseph Smith—History 1:59),” KnoWhy #193, Sept 22, 2016, online at https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/why-did-moroni-deliver-the-plates-on-september-22 .

The Mormon synchronisms with the Jewish calendar are far more significant that we realize.  Yet Joseph had no inkling of their relevance or importance.  How is that possible?

[notHagoth7]

42 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...The Mormon synchronisms with the Jewish calendar are far more significant that we realize.  Yet Joseph had no inkling of their relevance or importance....

In some things, I believe Joseph had no inkling, as you suggest.

In others, I have come to believe Joseph simply felt no need to justify himself, and quietly bit his lip about some truths...knowing that in the end, he would be fully vindicated anyway.

 

Also, since the message is intended for "every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," I'm of the opinion that the message is, at times, couched in cultural significance for peoples above and beyond Judaeo-Christian traditions. Because it is a global message. This assertion, doesn't downplay Judaic overlaps, but to me suggests that the full tapestry consists of more than just Judaeo-Christian crossthreads.

 

Because of that, several cross-cultural posts in this forum, such as those from Rajah and sam, pique my interest considerably.