Joseph restoring freemasonry

[notHagoth7]

From the 1844 (Matrydom) in Bible Prophecy thread:

And some say [Joseph was killed] because [Joseph] was borrowing secret masonic rites...

While others say that he was actually *restoring* ancient freemasonry, as he specifically said he was doing.

Which raises a worthwhile point or two. Restoring it...from what?

Feel free to consider this.    (Meanwhile, I'm working on a book that expands considerably upon the premise in that short document.)

Thoughts?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

While others say that he was actually *restoring* ancient freemasonry, as he specifically said he was doing.

I don't know of anyone who said that he was restoring freemasonry.
I know of people who said he was restoring the systems that freemasonry degenerated from (whether we agree with that or not).

But I don't think "freemasonry" is something that was restored nor needed to be.

[notHagoth7]

An indirect citation: "The Prophet Joseph Smith suggested that the endowment and Freemasonry in part emanated from the same ancient spring." 

Will search for a direct citation later.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

An indirect citation: "The Prophet Joseph Smith suggested that the endowment and Freemasonry in part emanated from the same ancient spring."

Will search for a direct citation later.

Got to love google.
"The Prophet Joseph Smith suggested that the Endowment and Freemasonry in part emanated from the same ancient spring. Thus, some Nauvoo Masons thought of the Endowment as a restoration of a ritual only imperfectly preserved in Freemasonry and viewed Joseph Smith as a master of the underlying principles and allegorical symbolism (Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, June 17, 1842, Church Archives). "

As I said - not restoring freemasonry, but restoring the systems that freemasonry degenerated from.

Edited September 20, 2016 by JLHPROF

[cdowis]

Joseph Smith restored freemasonry in the same way he restored the Catholic church.

Edited September 20, 2016 by cdowis

[notHagoth7]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

..."The Prophet Joseph Smith suggested that the Endowment and Freemasonry in part emanated from the same ancient spring. Thus, some Nauvoo Masons thought of the Endowment as a restoration of a ritual only imperfectly preserved in Freemasonry and viewed Joseph Smith as a master of the underlying principles and allegorical symbolism (Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, June 17, 1842, Church Archives). "

As I said - not restoring freemasonry, but restoring the systems that freemasonry degenerated from.

Tomayto, Tomahto. I would suggest that we're essentially saying the same thing.

The minor differences in our interpretation/expression are, in my view, semantic hairsplitting.

"However, for early Saints who were themselves Masons, this dilemma did not exist. Reportedly on the basis of teachings by Joseph Smith himself, early Saints understood the endowment as an ancient rite of which Masonry had preserved a corrupted or fragmentary form. In other words, early Saints understood the relationship between Masonry and the endowment as analogous to that between "sectarian" Christianity and the restored church. As Joseph had been God's instrument to restore true Christianity, so also he had restored true Masonry."

Thoughts?

Edited September 21, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

Joseph Smith restored freemasonry in the same way he restored the Catholic church.

? Unsure exactly what you're implying.

I would agree fully with with such a statement if it instead said that Joseph restored [primitive] freemasonry in the same way (and as part of his mission) that he restored the [primitive] Christian church.

(6th article of faith.)

[Storm Rider]

18 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

Tomayto, Tomahto. I would suggest that we're essentially saying the same thing.

The minor differences in our interpretation/expression are, in my view, semantic hairsplitting.

"However, for early Saints who were themselves Masons, this dilemma did not exist. Reportedly on the basis of teachings by Joseph Smith himself, early Saints understood the endowment as an ancient rite of which Masonry had preserved a corrupted or fragmentary form. In other words, early Saints understood the relationship between Masonry and the endowment as analogous to that between "sectarian" Christianity and the restored church. As Joseph had been God's instrument to restore true Christianity, so also he had restored true Masonry."

Thoughts?

Hag7, I think the terminology is important and not so simple as a case of semantics.  To summarize, (I will assume some statements you have made as factual without interjecting my opinion) We believe the Endowment is a restored, sacred rite.  We recognize the Masonic rite as a corrupted form of that ancient rite.  However, we do not recognize the Masonic rite to be the Endowment or vice-versa.  The Church does not claim there was a restoration of a Masonic rite, but a restoration of an ancient rite that may only have a tenuous reflection of the actual ancient rite.  

The early saints recognized this tenuous relationship, but did not think or believe the one was the equivalent of the other.  

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

? Unsure exactly what you're implying.

Let me speak clearly ==>>

Joseph Smith restored freemasonry the same way that he restored the Catholic church.  

Edited September 20, 2016 by cdowis

[notHagoth7]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Hag7, I think the terminology is important and not so simple as a case of semantics.  To summarize, (I will assume some statements you have made as factual without interjecting my opinion) We believe the Endowment is a restored, sacred rite.  We recognize the Masonic rite as a corrupted form of that ancient rite.  However, we do not recognize the Masonic rite to be the Endowment or vice-versa.  The Church does not claim there was a restoration of a Masonic rite, but a restoration of an ancient rite that may only have a tenuous reflection of the actual ancient rite.  

The early saints recognized this tenuous relationship, but did not think or believe the one was the equivalent of the other.  

?

Once again, we are saying the same thing.

 

[notHagoth7]

4 hours ago, cdowis said:

Let me speak clearly ==>>

Joseph Smith restored freemasonry the same way that he restored the Catholic church.  

?

The intended meaning of such a sentence can be interpreted more than one way. Hence my initial...and now subsequent question.

Most attempts at clarity involve the brief effort of restating what one means...in different words.

Simply restating the exact same words don't bring us any closer to mutual understanding than where we already were.

Edited September 21, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

And for clarity from *my* end...

1) In my OP I was quite specific about Joseph restoring "ancient" freemasonry....as opposed to modern freemasonry or 17th-century freemasonry. 

2) And in that OP, I offered a link clearly explaining what I believe Joseph was drawing/restoring from/to.

From the ongoing replies, I'm currently of the opinion that some are getting repeatedly sidetracked by a brief, imperfect thread title, when it would be much more productive if we could instead build upon my actual intent that was quite clearly laid out in the more specific/explicit OP...

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_Freemasonry/Origins

[notHagoth7]

Those who  carefully review the web page provided in my previous post might note that what the early saints said about Joseph and freemasonry aligns with what I've been posting here.

Edited September 21, 2016 by notHagoth7

[sam]

You guys might find some of this interesting. It appears Native Americans might have practiced free masonry.

Temple/Masonic Medallion

“They call themselves Aquanuskion (Algonquin), or ye Covenant People.”
(Louise Welles Murray 1908)

(Gaspesian/Micmac Indians)

“Not an Indian would ever dare to appear before the others without having in his hand, on his skin, or on his garments this sacred sign.”
(Clercq 1680 pg. 147)

Mosiah 11:10 – And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of the temple, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass.

(In reference to the Natchez of Mississippi, who said a race that preceded them built temples with much skill, and also taught them to build temples)

“Their temples were built with much skill and labor. They made very beautiful things with all kinds of materials, such as gold, silver, stones, wood, fabrics, feathers, and many other things in which they made their skill appear.
“A remarkable temple was situated in the town of Talmaco, upon the Savannah River, three miles distant from Cutifatchique, near Silver Bluff. It was more than one hundred feet in length, and fifty feet in width. The walls were high in proportion, and the roof steep and covered with mats of split cane, interwoven so compactly that they resembled the rush carpeting of the Moors.”
(Jones, The American Naturalist, Vol 3 1869)

“In 1934, the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA), was constructing a dam which would flood a portion of the Clinch River in East Tennessee. Because the area to be flooded included a Hopewell Native American mound, a group of archeologists were called in to excavate the site. The archeologists came upon an amazing discovery when they uncovered the ruins of a large stone and wood structure. So unlike any other find found at a Hopewell site, British Egyptologist, James Rendel Harris from the London Museum, was consulted. At the site, Harris identified the structure as an “Egyptian Temple”. A single newspaper article documents this account.
“In the center of the mound, about three feet from its surface, I uncovered a large sacrificial vase, or altar, forty-three inches in diameter, composed of a mixture of clay and river shells. The rim of the vase was three inches in height. The entire vessel had been molded in a large wicker basket, formed of split canes, and the leaves of the cane, the impressions of which were plainly visible upon the outer surface. The circle of the vase appeared to be almost mathematically correct. The surface of the altar was covered with a layer of ashes, about one inch in thickness, and these ashes had the appearance and composition of having been derived from the burning.”
(Jones, The American Naturalist, Vol 3 1869)

(During ancient times, Hebrews were commanded to maintain an eternal flame at the tabernacle/temple - Exodus 27:20, 21)

“Henri de Tonto, who travelled with de la Salle and wrote an extensive report, thought them most “polished” people he had seen. As with the Illinois and Natchez, they maintained a sacred fire that was never allowed to go out in their major Temple… an elaborate palace with decorated walls ten feet high.”
(A Cultural History of the Atlantic World, 1250-1820, by John K. Thornton)

“The Potta-wat-um-ees moved up Lake Michigan, and by taking with them, or for a time perpetuating the national fire, which according to tradition was sacredly kept alive in their more primitive days, they have obtained the name of “those who make or keep the fire,” which is the literal meaning of their tribal cognomen.”
(Warren Williams, Ojibwa History)

(Gaspesian/Micmac Indians)

“In a word, they value the [Greek style] Cross so highly that they order it to be interred with them in their coffins after death, in the belief that this Cross will bear them company in the other world, and that they would not be recognised by their ancestors if they had not with them the symbol and honourable token which distinguishes the Cross-bearers from all the other Indians of New France.”
(Clercq 1680 pg. 151)

(Incense)

To this day Native Americans hold tobacco sacred it is used in their religious ceremonies. As described by a Native American, when the tobacco smoke rises, it sends their prayers up to the creator. In the days of Moses and the Old Testament, incense was burned in the temple. It represented prayers ascending to God.

“Near Portsmouth, a flourishing town at the mouth of the Scioto, a medal was found in alluvial earth, several years since, by a Mr. White, a number of feet below the surface….This medal, I regret to state, is not in my possession, but it has been described to me by Gen. Robert Lucas and the Hon. Ezra Osborn, Esq. It was Masonic; the device on one side of it, represented a human heart with a sprig of cassia growing out of it; on the other side was a temple, with a cupola and spire, at the summit of which was a half moon, and there was a star in front of the temple. There were Roman letters on both sides of this medal, but what they were, Gen. Lucas and Judge Osborn have forgotten; they were probably abbreviations.”
(Atwater 1833, pg. 117)

The depiction on the right seems to show some type of religious ceremony being done in a bowl type alter. Notice the Greek style cross is present on the clothes of the Priest. The bowl on the left is an artifact that also gives the impression of an alter type vase. The bowl is from the Pine Tree Mound the depiction is from a Spiro Oklahoma artifact.

Below is an engineer drawing of an 1823 Hopewell mound believed to be fake? The engineer drawing was attributed to Maj. Isaac Roberdeau of a Hopewell mound in the shape of a Middle Eastern style lamp and menorah.

Hanukah happened after Lehi, so that is not a factor. But the menorah and eternal flame (oil lamp) were both commanded to be used in the temple by God. The menorah in this depiction is a nine stick menorah. According to Jewish traditions. A seven stick menorah could not be outside the temple. Jews would use a nine stick menorah outside the temple to adhere to the sacred nature of the menorah.

Hanukkah Mound and other Hopewell mounds:

When studying the Natchez temples many of the same implements found in Hebrew temples was also present in the Natchez temple. In Hebrew temples, you have a rectangular shaped building with high walls, all constructed and furnished with great craftsmanship and lavishness. Inside you have the menorah, an eternal light (oil lamp), a veil, and the Ark of the Covenant. The Natchez have many similarities. They have an eternal fire that it is held with such regard that if it goes out those responsible for it are put to death. They have an alter inside their temple. They have a curtain or veil. Behind the veil is a wicker basket that no one is allowed to open. The way that the Wicker basket is presented in their temple behind a curtain that nobody is allowed to view may have similarities to the Ark of the Covenant.

The Native American greeting is quite interesting. I’m sure many older people have seen the old western cowboy and Indian movies. Native Americans have greetings that are reminiscent of sustaining church members in there calling during sacrament meeting. They also have other types of greetings. The Native American greeting is to bring the right arm to the square and say “how”.

The Algonquin Indians have another greeting that after you have made a friendship with that tribe. There is a special way using both hands to greet a member of that tribe to show a friendship or trust has been established with that tribe. I can’t vouch for the source. I received this picture from Wayne May:

Freemasons of the 19^th and 20^th century have noticed similarities to Native American ceremonies and freemasonry. There have been some books written about this subject. Freemasons have assumed that the Native Americans have learned this from other Freemasons, but that is only an unverified idea. The other option is explained by the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

The Native American ceremony of Red Hand is very interesting. The tribes that conducted this ceremony in their long houses are the Iroquois, that being the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Oneida, or Mohawk. Keep in mind Red Hand is a Native American ceremony, nothing else. The account has been edited for relevance.

The proceedings began with 4 raps at the door. The candidate was brought in and listened to the story of Red Hand, the ancient leader. The candidate assumes the identity of the object of the story.

Red Hand was a young Chief who received certain mysterious knowledge from the Creator of All. He was kind, generous, and loved by all.

One day in battle, a poisoned arrow felled him. The enemy Indian rushed upon him, demanding the secret of his power or his life. Red Hand refused to divulge the secrets, so he was scalped.

A lone wolf came upon the body and howled so loud he brought all the animals from the forest. They each contributed a part of their bodies and revived the scalp, which they put on Red Hand’s head. They formed a circle around him and chanted for signs of life. Red Hand listened with his eyes closed when a voice asked him these questions:

VOICE: “Hast thou cleansed thyself from human guilt and impurity?”

RED HAND: “I have.”

VOICE: “Hast thou ill will toward any of thy fellow creatures?”

RED HAND: “I have not.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou trust and obey us, keeping thyself always chaste and valorous?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou hold this power with which we endow thee for thine own chosen company only?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou endure death or torture in its cause?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “”Wilt thou vow this secret never to be revealed save at thy death hour?’

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Thy death hour will be revealed to thee; thou wilt be allowed to choose thy successor, and at the end of thy journey thou wilt be rewarded for faith and obedience.”

The circle drew closer and the brother who is the bear touched the breast of Red Hand. All stood erect. The bear grasped the hand of the leader who was to be raised, though slain, and by a strong grip pulled Red Hand to his feet.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/native_american_rituals.htm

 

[sam]

 

The Native American greeting is quite interesting. I’m sure many older people have seen the old western cowboy and Indian movies. Native Americans have greetings that are reminiscent of sustaining church members in there calling during sacrament meeting. They also have other types of greetings. The Native American greeting is to bring the right arm to the square and say “how”.

The Algonquin Indians have another greeting that after you have made a friendship with that tribe. There is a special way using both hands to greet a member of that tribe to show a friendship or trust has been established with that tribe.

I will see if the pic comes through sometimes jpegs attaching is a hit or miss.

[sam]

ya I'm still on limited

[sam]

 

This part is of the most interest

The proceedings began with 4 raps at the door. The candidate was brought in and listened to the story of Red Hand, the ancient leader. The candidate assumes the identity of the object of the story.

Red Hand was a young Chief who received certain mysterious knowledge from the Creator of All. He was kind, generous, and loved by all.

One day in battle, a poisoned arrow felled him. The enemy Indian rushed upon him, demanding the secret of his power or his life. Red Hand refused to divulge the secrets, so he was scalped.

A lone wolf came upon the body and howled so loud he brought all the animals from the forest. They each contributed a part of their bodies and revived the scalp, which they put on Red Hand’s head. They formed a circle around him and chanted for signs of life. Red Hand listened with his eyes closed when a voice asked him these questions:

VOICE: “Hast thou cleansed thyself from human guilt and impurity?”

RED HAND: “I have.”

VOICE: “Hast thou ill will toward any of thy fellow creatures?”

RED HAND: “I have not.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou trust and obey us, keeping thyself always chaste and valorous?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou hold this power with which we endow thee for thine own chosen company only?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Wilt thou endure death or torture in its cause?”

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “”Wilt thou vow this secret never to be revealed save at thy death hour?’

RED HAND: “I will.”

VOICE: “Thy death hour will be revealed to thee; thou wilt be allowed to choose thy successor, and at the end of thy journey thou wilt be rewarded for faith and obedience.”

The circle drew closer and the brother who is the bear touched the breast of Red Hand. All stood erect. The bear grasped the hand of the leader who was to be raised, though slain, and by a strong grip pulled Red Hand to his feet.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/native_american_rituals.htm

[sam]

I don't think I can post pictures because I'm on limited or user error one or the error.

but the greeting Native American greeting of the Great Lake Indians make sure you notice both hand placements.

and don't worry this is not LDS ceremony it's a nAtive American ceremony

 

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/native-american-hebrew-like-temples.html

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, sam said:

The Native American greeting is quite interesting.

This collection of facts is the first of your post on native americans that I find interesting.
If the ceremonies of the tribes you name (Iroquois etc) actually do follow this pattern as described then that is fascinating.
But I am no expert on such traditions.

If what you describe is accurate then that is clearly related to the temple.

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

Tomayto, Tomahto. I would suggest that we're essentially saying the same thing.

The minor differences in our interpretation/expression are, in my view, semantic hairsplitting.

"However, for early Saints who were themselves Masons, this dilemma did not exist. Reportedly on the basis of teachings by Joseph Smith himself, early Saints understood the endowment as an ancient rite of which Masonry had preserved a corrupted or fragmentary form. In other words, early Saints understood the relationship between Masonry and the endowment as analogous to that between "sectarian" Christianity and the restored church. As Joseph had been God's instrument to restore true Christianity, so also he had restored true Masonry."

Thoughts?

First of all take down that link or the whole thread will be deleted and you could get a good spanking by the mods.

To be bluntly frank, I am not interested in what early Saints thought of anything, especially not science, politics, social issues or even religion.  I think their world views were quite "primitive" in every regard compared to ours.  Surely they were more spiritual and saw the world in a wonderfully magical way, and we have lost that tragically.  We have traded that for scientism, but I am confident that someday we can have both a magical religious and scientific perspective as one, seen as independent perspectives of the same phenomena.  But that is a different subject.

I actually think mankind has progressed except in spirituality!  But the reality is that view no longer works in the 21st century.

I think it is clear that Joseph used masonry as a context for the introduction of the IDEAS and SYMBOLS of the endowment as a PRESENTATION device for giving mankind the sublime truths of the endowment which lie beneath the surface of the words and presentation

To me, saying he restored "true masonry" is like saying he restored the "true story of the prodigal son".  Jesus could have taught the idea that we should forgive and forget in a hundred different ways, and we have to see the message and not get confused by taking the story literally.  The endowment does not contain magic words or incantations.  This is not Harry Potter!

"True masonry" would be like restoring "true Harry Potter" and getting the spells exactly right.  It misses the point entirely

The principles revealed in the symbols are what is important and how those principles relate to and how we live those principles in our lives is what matters

There is one point in the endowment when symbols are plainly explained quite directly.  THAT is the important teaching of the endowment plus other nuances which are revealed as modifications in the symbols in various gestures etc.

We are all beggars before Christ and we need to learn to follow our internal compasses passing through the whole of truths presented and cloaking ourselves in the atonement while living the principles taught

The fact that early members were all masons helps us apologetically when critics bring up the argument that the endowment was "copied from masonry"

First of all, it was clearly not "copied" and presents an entirely different context than masonry, but that is another issue.  The fact that early members were masons just proves that they were not at all concerned that Joseph borrowed portions of that context.  They KNEW the similarities but they UNDERSTOOD that both were using a symbolic language to PRESENT truths of a spiritual nature.  There lack of concern shows us that we should also not be concerned- because they understood the symbolic nature of both practices as we today do not.  Their world was symbolic and magical- ours is literal and scientific.  

What we need to learn from them is how to retain their understanding of a magical world while keeping our true understanding of the pragmatic purposes of science.

There is no conflict between these different perspectives any more than seeing a pyramid from above as a "square" and from the side as a "triangle".  We simply see both perspectives as valid but as different perspectives of the same reality.  We need to see science and religion that way as well

Every sentence uses the same 26 symbols to express every idea mankind has ever thought by putting those symbols together in different contexts

THAT is the difference and similarity that masonry has to the endowment.

In short, no biggie.  

Restoring true symbols is like trying to restore a true "M".

Edited September 21, 2016 by mfbukowski

[notHagoth7]

 I appreciate the heads up and the opinion. I will take a closer look at the rest of the cited webpage later tonight   wfhen  I get home and will make a determination  of whether it should remain or be deleted.  If I somehow get  spanked, as you put it, or dismissed from the forum between now and then for an unintended offense, I suppose my life would go on pretty much as contentedly as it had before and after I resumed posting, and I would quietly wish you all well. 

[notHagoth7]

 In the meantime, if you feel that  reference is as offensive as you claim  it to be, it might not be a bad idea on your end for you to consider removing it from your own post.

[sam]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

This collection of facts is the first of your post on native americans that I find interesting.
If the ceremonies of the tribes you name (Iroquois etc) actually do follow this pattern as described then that is fascinating.
But I am no expert on such traditions.

If what you describe is accurate then that is clearly related to the temple.

 I need to get the original books that the web link gets these Iroquois ceremonies from. My understanding is that free masons found native Americans practicing aspects free masonry. They concluded that at some point in time free masons taught native Americans free masonry. Free masons have written two or three books on the topic.

[Thinking]

6 hours ago, cdowis said:

Let me speak clearly ==>>

Joseph Smith restored freemasonry the same way that he restored the Catholic church.  

You're like that person who when talking to somebody who doesn't understand English, talks louder - thinking that volume somehow increases comprehension.