Joseph restoring freemasonry

[sam]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

First of all take down that link or the whole thread will be deleted and you could get a good spanking by the mods.

To be bluntly frank, I am not interested in what early Saints thought of anything, especially not science, politics, social issues or even religion.  I think their world views were quite "primitive" in every regard compared to ours.  Surely they were more spiritual and saw the world in a wonderfully magical way, and we have lost that tragically.  We have traded that for scientism, but I am confident that someday we can have both a magical religious and scientific perspective as one, seen as independent perspectives of the same phenomena.  But that is a different subject.

I actually think mankind has progressed except in spirituality!  But the reality is that view no longer works in the 21st century.

I think it is clear that Joseph used masonry as a context for the introduction of the IDEAS and SYMBOLS of the endowment as a PRESENTATION device for giving mankind the sublime truths of the endowment which lie beneath the surface of the words and presentation

To me, saying he restored "true masonry" is like saying he restored the "true story of the prodigal son".  Jesus could have taught the idea that we should forgive and forget in a hundred different ways, and we have to see the message and not get confused by taking the story literally.  The endowment does not contain magic words or incantations.  This is not Harry Potter!

"True masonry" would be like restoring "true Harry Potter" and getting the spells exactly right.  It misses the point entirely

The principles revealed in the symbols are what is important and how those principles relate to and how we live those principles in our lives is what matters

There is one point in the endowment when symbols are plainly explained quite directly.  THAT is the important teaching of the endowment plus other nuances which are revealed as modifications in the symbols in various gestures etc.

We are all beggars before Christ and we need to learn to follow our internal compasses passing through the whole of truths presented and cloaking ourselves in the atonement while living the principles taught

The fact that early members were all masons helps us apologetically when critics bring up the argument that the endowment was "copied from masonry"

First of all, it was clearly not "copied" and presents an entirely different context than masonry, but that is another issue.  The fact that early members were masons just proves that they were not at all concerned that Joseph borrowed portions of that context.  They KNEW the similarities but they UNDERSTOOD that both were using a symbolic language to PRESENT truths of a spiritual nature.  There lack of concern shows us that we should also not be concerned- because they understood the symbolic nature of both practices as we today do not.  Their world was symbolic and magical- ours is literal and scientific.  

What we need to learn from them is how to retain their understanding of a magical world while keeping our true understanding of the pragmatic purposes of science.

There is no conflict between these different perspectives any more than seeing a pyramid from above as a "square" and from the side as a "triangle".  We simply see both perspectives as valid but as different perspectives of the same reality.  We need to see science and religion that way as well

Every sentence uses the same 26 symbols to express every idea mankind has ever thought by putting those symbols together in different contexts

THAT is the difference and similarity that masonry has to the endowment.

In short, no biggie.  

Restoring true symbols is like trying to restore a true "M".

One aspect I learned from listening to a podcast about free masonry was very interesting. The man was a free mason and Lds. The way he explained it is free masonry is the worlds oldest trade union and is supposed to date back to Hebrews when they were enslaved by the Egyptians and building the Egyptian buildings. When masons were building Solomon temple and other sacred buildings they would not let just anyone work on the temple. You had to prove you were qualified in the trade union per say by knowing you know what that only members of the trade union (free masonry) would know.

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, sam said:

One aspect I learned from listening to a podcast about free masonry was very interesting. The man was a free mason and Lds. The way he explained it is free masonry is the worlds oldest trade union and is supposed to date back to Hebrews when they were enslaved by the Egyptians and building the Egyptian buildings. When masons were building Solomon temple and other sacred buildings they would not let just anyone work on the temple. You had to prove you were qualified in the trade union per say by knowing you know what that only members of the trade union (free masonry) would know.

Yes I have heard that one before

[sam]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This collection of facts is the first of your post on native americans that I find interesting.
If the ceremonies of the tribes you name (Iroquois etc) actually do follow this pattern as described then that is fascinating.
But I am no expert on such traditions.

If what you describe is accurate then that is clearly related to the temple.

The only thing I can vouch for is the original greeting which is to hold your right hand to the square. The other greeting to verify an established friendship with the tribe I cannot find a original source unfortunately.

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

...like that person who when talking to somebody who doesn't understand English, talks louder - thinking that volume somehow increases comprehension....

Your comment leads me to a complete tangent like this clip. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

55 minutes ago, sam said:

The only thing I can vouch for is the original greeting which is...The other greeting to verify an established friendship with the tribe I cannot find a original source unfortunately.

Reminds me of a form of recognition I've read about in an ancient account from northern Europe....contemporary with Hagoth.

'Nuf said.

[waveslider]

15 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

From the 1844 (Matrydom) in Bible Prophecy thread:

While others say that he was actually *restoring* ancient freemasonry, as he specifically said he was doing.

Which raises a worthwhile point or two. Restoring it...from what?

Feel free to consider this.    (Meanwhile, I'm working on a book that expands considerably upon the premise in that short document.)

Thoughts?

My thought is that for everything that God has set up, including temple things, Satan sets up a counterfeit for. Similar enough to confuse and deceive, and corrupted enough in an effort to take away from the real truth. Just my two cents worth anyway.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

First of all take down that link or the whole thread will be deleted and you could get a good spanking by the mods.

[Calm]

Link to above post...

Those who quoted the link need to delete it too.:)

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Link to above post...

Those who quoted the link need to delete it too.:)

Holy cow!

There is stupid and then there is stoopid.

Thanks- corrected  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

Reminds me of a form of recognition I've read about in an ancient account from northern Europe....contemporary with Hagoth.

'Nuf said.

Yeah but honestly, I was using that greeting as a kid forty years before I was a member.

I called it "waving".

Raising the right arm if you are right handed and saying "Hi" or its equivalent is not exactly a unique human experience

I like the little of what I know about your theory which isn't much- but I don't know if that common a human greeting helps your case.  To me it's like attaching symbolism to a smile or something.  The illustration itself shows either arm being used, some with hand held high, others lower, etc.

What am I missing?

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah but honestly, I was using that greeting as a kid forty years before I was a member.

I called it "waving".

...I like the little of what I know about your theory which isn't much- but I don't know if that common a human greeting helps your case.  

...What am I missing?

What are you missing? Almost all of what I actually meant. Because I wasn't alluding to hand/arm gestures.

(You might have also missed a considerable degree of worthwhile content that sam shared elsewhere in this thread.)

As a riff on what sam shared, I was alluding instead to a different but related means of recognition, that some would readily recognize. Might opt to share it some day...in an appropriate time/setting.

Meanwhile, for those who feel the need to be dismissive about things like what sam has been generous and patient to share, (and even about other things that perhaps none here have yet heard/read/considered), such discussions can grind to a halt long before they've ever had a chance to really start. Might I instead invite/encourage a bit more consideration, and *constructive* participation, for those who might (temporarily?) have interest in sharing?    

/boardnanny  

/mypostingprivileges?  

#notTheBriarPatch!AnythingButTheBriarPatch!

(?the beginning of more writing/producing, walking, and family time?)  :0)

 

...If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Edited September 21, 2016 by notHagoth7

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

Reminds me of a form of recognition I've read about in an ancient account from northern Europe....contemporary with Hagoth.

'Nuf said.

 

14 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

What are you missing? About 99.5% of what I actually meant. Because I wasn't alluding to hand/arm gestures...although you and sam were.

I was alluding instead to a different means of recognition, that some would readily recognize, if it was shared.... at an appropriate time/place.

Meanwhile, for those who feel the need to be dismissive about things like what sam has been generous and patient to share, and even other things that perhaps none here have yet heard/read/considered, such discussions grind to a halt before they've had a chance to really begin.

Might I encourage a bit more consideration for those who might temporarily have interest in sharing? 

Oh- seemed to me you were talking about greetings here

I get it that Nephites might have visited the British Isles and brought the endowment with them with its similarities to freemasonry.  I get the Jeremiah thing and the coronation stone. No problem with that- interesting ideas

Well sorry then for not understanding what you did not say.   I don't know how I was dismissive of what I didn't know what you were saying. But sorry for offending anyway

I will just get out now.

Edited September 21, 2016 by mfbukowski

[notHagoth7]

50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I... get it that Nephites might have visited [Europe] and brought the endowment with them with its similarities to freemasonry.

K.

50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

...Well sorry then for not understanding what you did not say.   I don't know how I was dismissive of what I didn't know what you were saying. But sorry for offending anyway

I will just get out now.

Apology appreciated/welcomed. If I've offended any here, yourself included, please let me know in public or private.

I wasn't so much offended as taken aback at what has appeared to be an increasingly-common response in a number of ?faith-promoting? threads.

Edited September 21, 2016 by notHagoth7

[cdowis]

14 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

?

The intended meaning of such a sentence can be interpreted more than one way. Hence my initial...and now subsequent question.

Most attempts at clarity involve the brief effort of restating what one means...in different words.

Simply restating the exact same words don't bring us any closer to mutual understanding than where we already were.

I was pointing out that freemasonry is not "ancient", but you simply re-defined it to correct the error.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

I was pointing out that freemasonry is not "ancient", but you simply re-defined it to correct the error.

I think we have to distinguish between freemasonry as a culture/organization and the elements of freemasonry. (symbols etc.)

I think the "elements" are truly ancient but have been re-contextualized through history again and again as Nibley and others have shown.  To some extent to say that freemasonry is not ancient is to say the endowment is therefore not ancient- and I do not believe that.

I also think that the presentation of the endowment (as opposed to the full meaning and spiritual understanding of its symbols) has pretty much always used the same symbolic vocabulary we now generalize with the word "Masonry"

Obviously one can find "masonic" elements in Egyptian religion for example, and certainly those elements are ancient.

 

Edited September 21, 2016 by mfbukowski

[theplains]

On 20/09/2016 at 7:54 PM, notHagoth7 said:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_Freemasonry/Origins

"The older versions recount that the True Word was engraved on a triangular plate of gold which 
was cast into a dry well; but the new versions related that the True Word, also engraved on a 
golden plate, was deposited in a purposely prepared place to be found centuries later by three 
masters." (13th Degree of Freemasonry, "Royal Arch of Solomon", Pillars of Wisdom, by Rex. R. 
Hutchens, page 88).

Jim

[Damien the Leper]

Every aspect of freemasonry is a joke. A bad one at that.

[notHagoth7]

2 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Every aspect of freemasonry is a joke. A bad one at that.

? A sense of brotherhood of all mankind?

? A framework which encourages moral choices and personal growth?

? A framework which influenced the founding of America?

? A framework built on faith in a Creator

etc., etc.

 

In what way do you see such things as a joke?

[Damien the Leper]

3 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

? A sense of brotherhood of all mankind?

? A framework which encourages moral choices and personal growth?

? A framework which influenced the founding of America?

? A framework built on faith in a Creator

etc., etc.

 

In what way do you see such things as a joke?

That's all cosmetic. Their relationship to Skull and Bones, the Rothschild family and the Rockefeller family is telling of their "morals". Their ceremonial symbolism is utter nonsense.

[Tacenda]

I heard it once said that Mormonism is basically Freemasonry. Were they right?

[Calm]

No, there are huge differences.  That kind of claim is on par with saying BSA is basically Freemasonry because it shares some goals, such as promoting brotherhood.  Or the typical preschool for that matter....

Edited September 24, 2016 by Calm

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I heard it once said that Mormonism is basically Freemasonry. Were they right?

 

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, there are huge differences.  That kind of claim is on par with saying BSA is basically Freemasonry because it shares some goals, such as promoting brotherhood.  Or the typical preschool for that matter....

To respond to both of you, if we're talking about *modern* Freemasonry (which this thread is *not* really about), the answer depends largely on the scope of the comparison.

On Tacenda's side of the equation, if one *intentionally* narrows the window of things considered for comparison to only include those few things that have *some* similarity, then one might be able to squint upside down and say that a forced subset of one *basically* resembles the forced subset of the other.

Meanwhile, on Calm's side of the equation, which I believe to be much more accurate and encompassing of the broader whole, in a comparison of the two entities, the relatively few similarities to modern Freemasonry are drastically outweighed by the much-more-numerous-and-extensive differences.

Edited September 24, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

 

On 9/22/2016 at 10:21 PM, Valentinus said:

That's all cosmetic. [Freemasonry's] relationship to Skull and Bones, the Rothschild family and the Rockefeller family is telling of their "morals". Their ceremonial symbolism is utter nonsense.

So, with similar logic, because an outgrowth of ancient Christianity (medieval Christianity) abused and slaughtered tens of thousands, we should all reject the premise of original Christianity?

If your grandchild becomes a degenerate, we should denounce and repudiate you as well?

Etc., etc.

 

Meanwhile, I know almost nothing about what the societies you mention here supposedly are, do, and/or have done. 

On 9/22/2016 at 10:21 PM, Valentinus said:

[Masonic] ceremonial symbolism is utter nonsense.

Some say the same of ancient Judaic symbolism.

Yet, such things quietly spoke of things which people were to internalize/do/become.

And especially spoke of greater things which would one day be fulfilled by Another.

So I respectfully differ with your assertion that weighty things such as ceremonial symbolism are somehow nonsense ("utter" or otherwise). 

Edited September 24, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Ed Goble]

On 9/20/2016 at 7:54 AM, notHagoth7 said:

From the 1844 (Matrydom) in Bible Prophecy thread:

While others say that he was actually *restoring* ancient freemasonry, as he specifically said he was doing.

Which raises a worthwhile point or two. Restoring it...from what?

Feel free to consider this.    (Meanwhile, I'm working on a book that expands considerably upon the premise in that short document.)

Thoughts?

I think that people who think of him restoring "Freemasonry" and fret about the fact that it didn't exist anciently are kind of not interpreting it right.  Did ancient esoteric fraternal orders exist that provided for the fraternal needs of males in society?  Yes.  Did he restore this among the Mormons?  He would have liked to.  He would have if Freemasonry would have let the Mormons do what Joseph Smith wanted to do.  It would have been a Mormon-specific rite that would have been created within the framework of freemasonry, not unlike York Rite for Christians, if Joseph would have finished what he wanted to do.  So a specific Mormon rite would have encompassed the endowment, and served for a structured, symbolic secular order similar to temple structure for young men to be brought up in, with degrees and advancement.  Sounds a whole lot like what we ended up with anyway:  Scouts.  Except, there is no secular fraternal order for male Mormon adults.  All we have are Elders Quorum and High Priests Quorum activities, which pretty much fail to provide for the fraternal needs of Mormon men, even though they have been claimed to do so.  The proof is the fact that most wards give about $50 or $100 of allotment for the activities for priesthood quorums, while sometimes the budget for Relief Society is almost into the thousands.  Do we have a structure like Freemasonry in the Church for the progression and needs of our youth?  Yes.  Do we have it for the Brethren.  No.  So was Joseph Smith's vision brought about?  Partially.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Ed Goble

[mfbukowski]

On 9/22/2016 at 9:21 PM, Valentinus said:

That's all cosmetic. Their relationship to Skull and Bones, the Rothschild family and the Rockefeller family is telling of their "morals". Their ceremonial symbolism is utter nonsense.

Are you still Catholic or Orthodox?