rockpond Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: So what is the answer for someone who sincerely believes that God does not condone SSM but does want to express love to LGBT people? What are they to do? If that's the case, than they may just have to accept that their gay brothers and sisters might not really feel that love from them. 2
BCSpace Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 20 hours ago, mfbukowski said: More like not allowing them to be taught to hate their parents, in my opinion. Why anyone would want their children to be taught that their parents were sinners is beyond me. One doesn't have to have gay parents to know those parents are sinners. It's standard official doctrine that all are sinners. Why anyone would want the Church to be silent on grievous sinners in the flock, especially ones that endanger their own children by practicing homosexuality is beyond me.
JulieM Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 minute ago, BCSpace said: One doesn't have to have gay parents to know those parents are sinners. It's standard official doctrine that all are sinners. Why anyone would want the Church to be silent on grievous sinners in the flock, especially ones that endanger their own children by practicing homosexuality is beyond me. "Endanger their own children"? That's quite dramatic and over the top. Care to ellaborate? 2
CMZ Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 13 minutes ago, rockpond said: If that's the case, than they may just have to accept that their gay brothers and sisters might not really feel that love from them. If any member (or subset of members) doesn't genuinely love some particular group as fellow sons and daughters of God then that member (or subset of members) needs to work on things until they do. There may always be people who need to work on this. No big mystery there.
bluebell Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, CMZ said: See a person and their perceived sexual orientation as two different things. Of course. In my mind that goes without saying. How can someone who does see a person separate from their sexual orientation, and believes that God does not condone SSM, help LGTB brothers and sisters to feel loved?
sunstoned Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 18 minutes ago, BCSpace said: One doesn't have to have gay parents to know those parents are sinners. It's standard official doctrine that all are sinners. Why anyone would want the Church to be silent on grievous sinners in the flock, especially ones that endanger their own children by practicing homosexuality is beyond me. You know BCSpace, it is statements like this that go a long ways in reinforcing my decision to distance myself from the church. 4
bluebell Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 30 minutes ago, rockpond said: If that's the case, than they may just have to accept that their gay brothers and sisters might not really feel that love from them. Perhaps so. It's sad though. It's hard for me to understand that mindset (if you don't agree with me you must not love me) but I think you are right in that some people do see the world like that.
bluebell Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: There a many ways to express love without resorting to a sexual or intimate path. True. I wasn't asking about sex or intimacy though but brotherly and sisterly love, such as we are supposed to have for others.
SteveO Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 39 minutes ago, rockpond said: You can post examples if you'd like to discuss. I don't think I (or anyone) can answer that on a strictly hypothetical basis. I've discussed specific language that I believe is offensive to most LGBT persons. Well, one guy from my old singles ward comes to mind. He LOOKED for every opportunity to be offended. Every member he interacted with, in his mind, thought less of him or looked down on him. Every lesson and accompanying discussion was a subtle reference specifically to him. I still follow him on Facebook, and as far as I know he is still active--but he never misses an opportunity to knock the church. I understand where that kind of self consciousness comes from. I don't pretend to understand how difficult it must be. I don't envy gay Mormons. But I think some gays in the church need some humility and need to stop looking for ways to be offended. They ARE loved. They ARE welcomed. And honestly, I think they need to step outside themselves and recognize that heterosexuals in the church struggle with heartache, disappointment, and hurt that may be just as great as their own. 1
JulieM Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, SteveO said: Well, one guy from my old singles ward comes to mind. He LOOKED for every opportunity to be offended. Every member he interacted with, in his mind, thought less of him or looked down on him. Every lesson and accompanying discussion was a subtle reference specifically to him. I still follow him on Facebook, and as far as I know he is still active--but he never misses an opportunity to knock the church. I understand where that kind of self consciousness comes from. I don't pretend to understand how difficult it must be. I don't envy gay Mormons. But I think some gays in the church need some humility and need to stop looking for ways to be offended. They ARE loved. They ARE welcomed. And honestly, I think they need to step outside themselves and recognize that heterosexuals in the church struggle with heartache, disappointment, and hurt that may be just as great as their own. Not "as great as their own", IMO. Other members can marry and have a companion in their life to help them through any trial in their path, without being labeled an apostate for not being alone. Edited September 9, 2016 by JulieM
SteveO Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, JulieM said: Not "as great as their own", IMO. Other members can marry and have a companion in their life to help them through any trial in their path without being labeled an apostate. Did you read my post about my cousin? edit to add:. And what of single sisters who never marry and are expected to keep the law of chastity? There are many of those in the church. Edited September 9, 2016 by SteveO
BCSpace Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 37 minutes ago, sunstoned said: You know BCSpace, it is statements like this that go a long ways in reinforcing my decision to distance myself from the church. The parable of the sower in action.
CMZ Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, JulieM said: Not "as great as their own", IMO. Other members can marry and have a companion in their life to help them through any trial in their path, without being labeled an apostate for not being alone. If anyone else labels someone else an apostate for being alone then the problem lies with the first person. We may all get mislabeled at some point.
BCSpace Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) Duplicate. See below. Edited September 9, 2016 by BCSpace Duplicate
JulieM Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, CMZ said: If anyone else labels someone else an apostate for being alone then the problem lies with the first person. We may all get mislabeled at some point. It's the leaders of the church who have labeled them apostates.
BCSpace Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, JulieM said: "Endanger their own children"? That's quite dramatic and over the top. Care to ellaborate? Sure. From the Church's standpoint, it's spiritual endangerment at the very least. From a scientific viewpoint, homosexuals are at a far greater risk for abuse, divorce, and mental and social health issues not related to any form of "discrimination". Statistically, about one third of all child s_x abuse cases are homosexual, about thirty times the rate of the occurrence of homosexuality in society.
rockpond Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Perhaps so. It's sad though. It's hard for me to understand that mindset (if you don't agree with me you must not love me) but I think you are right in that some people do see the world like that. It's not just a run of the mill disagreement. Like disagreeing over political affiliation. Imagine if someone said to you: "I love you but I don't think you should be allowed to be married to your spouse. You are afflicted with a condition that makes you unnaturally love your husband. I believe that God condemns your marriage, that you should be excommunicated from the church, that your children shouldn't attend, and that your relationship should be disavowed." If someone said those things to you (and all those sentiments have been typed on this thread) would there be any way you could simultaneously feel love from them? 2
rockpond Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, SteveO said: Well, one guy from my old singles ward comes to mind. He LOOKED for every opportunity to be offended. Every member he interacted with, in his mind, thought less of him or looked down on him. Every lesson and accompanying discussion was a subtle reference specifically to him. I still follow him on Facebook, and as far as I know he is still active--but he never misses an opportunity to knock the church. I understand where that kind of self consciousness comes from. I don't pretend to understand how difficult it must be. I don't envy gay Mormons. But I think some gays in the church need some humility and need to stop looking for ways to be offended. They ARE loved. They ARE welcomed. And honestly, I think they need to step outside themselves and recognize that heterosexuals in the church struggle with heartache, disappointment, and hurt that may be just as great as their own. I agree with all that. Well, most of it. I don't believe that they are always loved and welcomed into our congregations. Edited September 9, 2016 by rockpond
Rivers Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 The title of this thread is very misleading. I really thought for a second that the Nov. policy had been revoked. 3
Gray Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, BCSpace said: Sure. From the Church's standpoint, it's spiritual endangerment at the very least. From a scientific viewpoint, homosexuals are at a far greater risk for abuse, divorce, and mental and social health issues not related to any form of "discrimination". Statistically, about one third of all child s_x abuse cases are homosexual, about thirty times the rate of the occurrence of homosexuality in society. Pedophilia is not homosexual or heterosexual. From a scientific viewpoint, children are probably better off staying away from men period. Statistically we're the most violent across the board in every category. Shall we leave all children to be raised by lesbian couples then? Since we're being scientific? Of course if you'd like to take a scientific view, you should probably get your scientific information from sources other than right wing political advocacy groups. Edited September 9, 2016 by Gray 2
bluebell Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 9 hours ago, rockpond said: If someone said those things to you (and all those sentiments have been typed on this thread) would there be any way you could simultaneously feel love from them? If they sincerely loved me, i hope i would be able to feel that love even if they disagreed with my life choices and personal beliefs. I would see it as a personal failing if i couldn't because i've never had much respect for the mindset of "agreement = love" and i wouldn't want to be a hypocrite. I hate that part of our cultural ideology right now (as Americans) is teaching kids from a very young age that in order to treat someone with respect and love them, we must first accept all of their choices as being equally valid as everyone else's, regardless of what those choices are. I'm much more interested in raising my kids to be able to completely disagree with someone and yet still love them, see value in them, and respect them as human beings. And likewise, not to demand agreement from other people before they can feel love and friendship from them. This, in my opinion, is the example that the Savior set in dealing with others, and also how He wants us to approach our relationship with Him. I realize that other people don't see things the same way though. 2
bsjkki Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 11 hours ago, SteveO said: Did you read my post about my cousin? edit to add:. And what of single sisters who never marry and are expected to keep the law of chastity? There are many of those in the church. Single people in the church always have hope. I have seen many marry later in life. They can date and socialize and seek a companion. It is much different for a gay young man or woman. 2
stemelbow Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 12 hours ago, bluebell said: Perhaps so. It's sad though. It's hard for me to understand that mindset (if you don't agree with me you must not love me) but I think you are right in that some people do see the world like that. I'd say it represents a special case. I don't think anyone really sees it as if you don't agree with me you must not love me. With rejection comes many years of mistreatment. That's just how life goes, though. There are certainly exceptions but as it is, for those who are gay mistreatment is largely connected with those who deny that they should be gay. So generally speaking, I'd think, if one is gay and a person tells them he/she disagrees that they should live gay, they feel misjudged and mistreated, on that basis alone. In my mind, those who disagree have a long way to go to make up for the mistreatment, instead of getting defensive which makes it worse. If that makes sense. In another way it's like anything. if someone approaches me and says, "hey, you're of the devil because your Mormon". I might be able to convince him/her otherwise, but if not, I'd be left with some sort of wall between us. I wouldn't necessarily feel loved by such a one, even if the one tries to be nice. We'd have some amount of barrier between us. He/she may feels he/she loves me, but that's not necessarily what I'm going to feel.
stemelbow Posted September 9, 2016 Author Posted September 9, 2016 31 minutes ago, bluebell said: If they sincerely loved me, i hope i would be able to feel that love even if they disagreed with my life choices and personal beliefs. I would see it as a personal failing if i couldn't because i've never had much respect for the mindset of "agreement = love" and i wouldn't want to be a hypocrite. I think you nailed it when you question whether such a one sincerely loved you. You'd have to qualify that every time. Now consider he who is gay and realize he too would have to question if those who are adamantly against him sincerely love him.
JLHPROF Posted September 9, 2016 Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: Pedophilia is not homosexual or heterosexual. I hear this argument but nobody has ever explained why one is considered an "orientation" and the other a "disorder". Sincerely, what is the medical/scientific differentiation? Aren't all three simply about the characteristics of who a person is sexually attracted to?
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