Apparently new policy is no longer

[bsjkki]

55 minutes ago, california boy said:

I personally have never felt any love coming from church leaders towards me.  At the most I have felt tolerance maybe acceptance that I could still be a part of the church if I chose to give up the person who I love and want to share my life with and become celibate.  That kind of love is very conditional on what they believe is how I should live my life.  It has nothing to do with whether they actually love me.  It is the kind of love that only exists in the abstract.

I have never felt any love from anyone who tells me I have SSA.  Please.  At least have the courtersy of not giving me some made up affliction called SSA invented by the Mormon church and picked up by some other christian organizations.  I am gay, which does mean I am attracted to someone of the same sex.  Yes, you can still be gay and not act on it.  You are straight long before you act on it as well.  No one calls you our OSA members.

I have felt love for me from some members of the church and certainly from others outside the church, even when I know that they do not approve or support gay marriage or think that any gay relationships are moral.  That love comes through when they look past what they don't approve of, but truly are able to admire me as a person and the life that I have chosen to live.  They respect my integrity for doing what I believe is right for me and they don't worry about making some judgement about that choice.  Few members are able to do that.  They seem to be more interested in the judgement of my choices and less interested in who I am as a person and my own personal beliefs that differ from theirs.  Saying you love someone is irrelevant, often flippant, and not to be trusted.  Showing love and caring, recognizing that a person can make different choices about what is right for THEIR lives but not necessarily yours begins to build that trust that is needed.  

I only write my feelings about this in hopes to help others better understand at least how one person feels when someone tells them they love them simply because they know they are required to love everyone, including those that are gay.  Probably most will not understand what I am talking about.  It is not easy to understand feelings.

In a social topic thread I asked for help for my friend who is struggling.  He came out on Facebook this last weekend and I know it took a lot of courage for him.  My family loves this kid.  I encouraged him to be open about his orientation in his new ward because he hates putting up a false image of himself.  I hope his ward is as loving and welcoming as they should be.  He asked me once how his mom would feel if he went inactive, not because he didn't have a testimony but because he just couldn't handle the loneliness and futility of his situation. He wants to date.  It is truly a no win situation for him.  I was honest with him that it would break his mothers heart.  But, my kids have made choices I do not like and I still love them and his mom would always love him too.  I clearly let him know that whatever he decides to do with his life and the choices he makes, we would always love him and welcome him in our home and family.  My husband, who I truly could not ever imagine saying this, has said that if he ever gets married in a gay relationship, we would be there to support him. Is there anything more we can do to show him that we truly love him and will be a part of his life even if he chooses to seek a relationship in this life?  I cannot express how much compassion and sympathy I have for him. I will not 'judge' his choices because I cannot ever truly know what it is like to walk in his shoes. If you have more advice to share on how to support and show love to this young man, please share.  I would really like to know from any other active openly gay men how they are treated in their wards.

Edited September 10, 2016 by bsjkki

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Many probably feel hopeless about getting a companion in this life that they are attracted to and believe they will need to be celibate the rest of their lives if they wish to remain chaste, even though the reasons they are hopeless in this regard are different.

Possibly, but we have 2 severely physically handicapped members in our ward who are married and have several children.  I also have one member of my family who was diagnosed with autism at a young age but has gone on to marry, remain in the church and have a family.  All of their children are baptized members of the church.  So, I think it's entirely different than someone who is gay and an active member.  I do see what you're saying though, as I'm sure many feel they may remain single throughout their lives.

.

Edited September 10, 2016 by ALarson

[Calm]

And hopelessness and hope is about perception, not about real prospects.

[bsjkki]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Many probably feel hopeless about getting a companion in this life that they are attracted to and believe they will need to be celibate the rest of their lives if they wish to remain chaste, even though the reasons they are hopeless in this regard are different.

I would never mean to diminish the plight of single members. I believe being gay is a different type of challenge than other scenarios. I have to teach the Eternal Marriage lesson in RS and I am sweating it.  I know it's a hard topic for many in my class.  Suggestions? 

[Calm]

I guess when I think of hardships, I just don't group people because even when causes are the same, I see too much variation in details and reaction.  For example, my grandfather, father, me and all my siblings have the same sleep disorder.  I am the only one who has ever studied it at all, let alone in depth.  I am also the one who got hit with it the hardest, but my dad who was second refused to talk about it with me for some reason and ended up probably living in s minor hell since I found out after he died he was on 4 times the recommended dose of a drug that has major side effects but he preferred that rather than taking 15 minutes out of his life to talk to me because his perspective saw that as a sign of control loss, weakness, something that diminished him in his mind.  For him the worst part of the disorder was having to communicate with others while I see any communication as a gift of God so for me that is a good thing about it, I have gotten to know so many fine people through this hardship.

I see huge differences in people responding to cancer, recently with my mom and hip surgery...there was a guy at the hospital who had the surgery who had to be scolded by the nurses because he felt so good he was getting blisters from walking too much while my mom couldn't make it to the bathroom without dissolving in tears.  I see families who have children needing care opening their door to more even though they have nothing to spare and another wealthy family in a panic demanding help from the government to cover costs.

And just daily life stuff, how some people view education as a necessary evil and others like me would love to be a professional student, but we all needed to learn to read and write, etc.

And stuff is hard because of the context it is in and that context is different for each person...

So I guess the point I am getting at is I see little value in just assuming a certain group has it harder than another or even just different.  Every challenge is different for every person.  Global statements may be useful if one has the stats to back them up and necessary for doing clinical research and coming up with solutions, but on a personal level where we are engaging with people everyday, the only thing that I think that matters is what you are telling me now about what you are dealing with and what I think I can do to help.  I think when we start making assumptions about differences and similarities, we risk missing important details because of our expectations.

[6EQUJ5]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I guess when I think of hardships, I just don't group people because even when causes are the same, I see too much variation in details and reaction.  For example, my grandfather, father, me and all my siblings have the same sleep disorder.  I am the only one who has ever studied it at all, let alone in depth.  I am also the one who got hit with it the hardest, but my dad who was second refused to talk about it with me for some reason and ended up probably living in s minor hell since I found out after he died he was on 4 times the recommended dose of a drug that has major side effects but he preferred that rather than taking 15 minutes out of his life to talk to me because his perspective saw that as a sign of control loss, weakness, something that diminished him in his mind.  For him the worst part of the disorder was having to communicate with others while I see any communication as a gift of God so for me that is a good thing about it, I have gotten to know so many fine people through this hardship.

I see huge differences in people responding to cancer, recently with my mom and hip surgery...there was a guy at the hospital who had the surgery who had to be scolded by the nurses because he felt so good he was getting blisters from walking too much while my mom couldn't make it to the bathroom without dissolving in tears.  I see families who have children needing care opening their door to more even though they have nothing to spare and another wealthy family in a panic demanding help from the government to cover costs.

And just daily life stuff, how some people view education as a necessary evil and others like me would love to be a professional student, but we all needed to learn to read and write, etc.

And stuff is hard because of the context it is in and that context is different for each person...

So I guess the point I am getting at is I see little value in just assuming a certain group has it harder than another or even just different.  Every challenge is different for every person.  Global statements may be useful if one has the stats to back them up and necessary for doing clinical research and coming up with solutions, but on a personal level where we are engaging with people everyday, the only thing that I think that matters is what you are telling me now about what you are dealing with and what I think I can do to help.  I think when we start making assumptions about differences and similarities, we risk missing important details because of our expectations.

Could you quote folks you are responding to?  It's really hard to follow you in conversation.

 

ETA:  I really like your posts but sometimes they are hard to understand because there isn't a context unless I've read through the entire thread.  Sometimes that doesn't happen 

Edited September 10, 2016 by 6EQUJ5

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sit by me at church or other events, be a genuine friend, respect me as a person, be kind to my children, and i don't know why i wouldn't feel loved by you, regardless of what you believed about my choices.

Rejecting your marriage and saying that your family is somehow less than isn't respecting you as a person.  "Disavowing" your marriage is being a genuine friend?  The policy uninvites your children... Is that being kind?

 

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, SteveO said:

So if you agree you don't want to break up families, why would you be opposed to the policy?  I see the church at the very least honoring the pre existing family and not making the option available so as to avoid contention.  I hope that makes sense.  It's been a long day and I'm just shutting down anymore.

Actually, I feel like my posts are getting less and less articulate, this thread has been nagging me all day and served as a distraction 

I think I'm gonna bow out of this.  It's been a pleasure to talk to you and everyone else.  Look forward to it in the future on other threads. 

You think the policy honors the existing family?  The policy requires that the child of gay parents disavows his/her parents marriage in order to become a member.  That's not honoring. 

Also, if a child of gay parents wants to get baptized or ordained to the priesthood and is denied because his/her parents are gay who will the child blame?  The church or the parents?

My answer to your question is that I think there is a better way to honor the families of gay parents and protect the children. 

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

It is easy to find love where it is sought, because the terms become liberal to the true seeker. Your observation seems to be the kind of thing someone says if he would rather someone accept his behavior than love him. Rather than judge the capacity of the “average” person to love, why not acknowledge that he seeks love, just like the sub- and above-average person? The more one holds to his own language and currency of love, he really misses out on seeing it, especially when that language and currency is rigidly behavior-based. And more so when he engenders a spirit of contention against those who do not appreciate his behavior yet love him.

...and then we have those who demand "love" which is really a demand for accepting bad behavior.

Behavior?  One's spouse and children are a behavior?  Sorry, you've missed my point. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Could you quote folks you are responding to?  It's really hard to follow you in conversation.

 

ETA:  I really like your posts but sometimes they are hard to understand because there isn't a context unless I've read through the entire thread.  Sometimes that doesn't happen 

If I don't quote, it is because it is the post above or speaking to the thread in general and not responding to a particular post...and my thoughts go everywhere so that might be part of the confusion.  If I have been missing checking to make sure and adding a quote if needed, my apologies.  I will try and remember to quote at all times and try to add the phrase "general observation" otherwise.

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, rockpond said:

Rejecting your marriage and saying that your family is somehow less than isn't respecting you as a person.  "Disavowing" your marriage is being a genuine friend?  The policy uninvites your children... Is that being kind?

 

Yes, i think that someone can reject my marriage because they believe it's not of God and still respect me as a person.   Yes, you can reject my fundamental beliefs and still be a genuine friend.  Yes, you can have beliefs about the appropriateness of my children joining your church and as long as you are sincerely kind to my kids you are still being kind.

Yes.  Yes!  You can disagree with my fundamental beliefs and still show me love.  It's a travesty that so many in our country have lost sight of that.  It's going to be the ruin of us-this inability to feel loved and respected by those who believe differently than us. 

[stemelbow]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Why?

She added the qualifier for a reason, I figure.  If once, then why not again?  If I put myself in the shoes of he who is gay, I'd probably add the qualifier each time too. 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, rockpond said:

Behavior?  One's spouse and children are a behavior?  Sorry, you've missed my point. 

Let me try again then (but why don’t you simply clarify your point so I might better understand?).

You said, in the point you were making, that love is not an action. I take that to be a feeling, a relationship, an attribute or even a possession.

You also said, in the point you were making, that one can reject ssm and still try to show love (as a feeling, a relationship, an attribute or even a possession).

 

Your point that you don’t think that this kind of love will be felt by the average LGBT person in their interaction with those who reject ssm is horrible. First, you a clumping people into a general category and deciding what is average about their emotional capacity. It dehumanizes them. Second, it characterizes them as basing the primary language and currency of love on one’s position on ssm.

If someone close to me told me my family is counterfeit (and his opinion mattered to me, and a relationship with him was important to me), I would not assume that means he does not love me, my spouse or my children. If there were friction about it, I would draw a circle and take him in. If he is not close to me, it probably wouldn’t matter much to me, and my friendship with him would certainly have to evolve on another basis, as well it should!

If I belonged to the LDS Church and understood her teachings on the subject, I would certainly strive to get my life, marriage and family in order. I would try to comply with the Lord’s will because I love Him. I would strive to keep my relationships saintly. If anyone were to express things in an offensive way, I would try to be charitable in my response.

To say that the average person doesn’t feel loved because of a particular religious position on marriage and family trivializes the underlying causes of a person not feeling loved within a relationship or community.

And yes, marriage and having children are forms of behavior, the first an institutionalized behavior and the second a natural behavior.

[stemelbow]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, i think that someone can reject my marriage because they believe it's not of God and still respect me as a person.   Yes, you can reject my fundamental beliefs and still be a genuine friend.  Yes, you can have beliefs about the appropriateness of my children joining your church and as long as you are sincerely kind to my kids you are still being kind.

Yes.  Yes!  You can disagree with my fundamental beliefs and still show me love.  It's a travesty that so many in our country have lost sight of that.  It's going to be the ruin of us-this inability to feel loved and respected by those who believe differently than us. 

I think it's possible too.  I think you said it best when you added the qualifier of the person really sincerely loving you.  Anyone, I dare say, would feel skeptical if another's position is so adamantly opposed to what you are.  That's a given, I figure.  It's not wonder so many LGBTQ folks feel unloved and unappreciated.  Because the messages of opposition come at them and they have to guess based on how they are treated by others whether the oppose really sincerely loves them or not. 

Just because it's possible it does not mean that's how it plays out. 

Added to this, how do you feel love from those you don't know in any way other than in their disagreement with who you are?  If you don't know someone and he/she states clearly, "I oppose every grown up Mormon and what he/she stands for no matter what. But I love them anywho."  My guess is most would proceed with caution, at least, with such a one. 

Seems reasonable to me. 

[california boy]

13 hours ago, bsjkki said:

In a social topic thread I asked for help for my friend who is struggling.  He came out on Facebook this last weekend and I know it took a lot of courage for him.  My family loves this kid.  I encouraged him to be open about his orientation in his new ward because he hates putting up a false image of himself.  I hope his ward is as loving and welcoming as they should be.  He asked me once how his mom would feel if he went inactive, not because he didn't have a testimony but because he just couldn't handle the loneliness and futility of his situation. He wants to date.  It is truly a no win situation for him.  I was honest with him that it would break his mothers heart.  But, my kids have made choices I do not like and I still love them and his mom would always love him too.  I clearly let him know that whatever he decides to do with his life and the choices he makes, we would always love him and welcome him in our home and family.  My husband, who I truly could not ever imagine saying this, has said that if he ever gets married in a gay relationship, we would be there to support him. Is there anything more we can do to show him that we truly love him and will be a part of his life even if he chooses to seek a relationship in this life?  I cannot express how much compassion and sympathy I have for him. I will not 'judge' his choices because I cannot ever truly know what it is like to walk in his shoes. If you have more advice to share on how to support and show love to this young man, please share.  I would really like to know from any other active openly gay men how they are treated in their wards.

You are truly a good friend that this kid knows he can count on to love him no matter what he decides to do.  He is lucky to have you and your family in his life.  And you are lucky to have him in your life as well.  I think his struggles have increased your capacity to love and support even those that may not make the same choices you would like them to make.  And this makes all the difference.  His choices can not be the same as the choices you have made in your life.  Accepting that goes a long way to giving that unconditional love that I believe Christ exhibited to those around him and what we should strive to emulate.  If he continues in the church, he will never know the joys and happiness of having someone in his life that he can love and cherish in the deep way that all of us long for.  He will never have a family.  He will never be a father.  It will exclude him from all of those things that I am sure you would list as the most important things in your life.  He will have to find his happiness in life outside of the church.  I think you already recognize that.  And you wish him only the best.  God will judge his choices.  It is not up to anyone else.  Thank goodness.

I know how much courage it takes to be honest about one's life.  Pretending to be straight just to fit in and be accepted takes it's toll especially over time and can cause much more heartache in the end.  He has made the first step towards putting honesty over expectations of others.  If there is anything I can do to help you or this dear friend of yours, please feel free to ask.  My heart goes out to you and your family and this sweet boy struggling to find his way in a very confused world.

 

[bluebell]

56 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Seems reasonable to me. 

I agree.

[Comet]

Thanks

[Sleeper Cell]

15 hours ago, rockpond said:

Rejecting your marriage and saying that your family is somehow less than isn't respecting you as a person.  "Disavowing" your marriage is being a genuine friend?  The policy uninvites your children... Is that being kind?

When two “genuine friends” disagree on a matter of conscience, shouldn’t respect go both ways?

One of the primary differences between my closest friends and my other friends is that when my closest friends believe I am wrong, they tell me I am wrong.  I certainly do not expect my closest friends to support my behavior if doing so would violate their own conscience.  

Frankly, a friend who is afraid to disagree with me or is willing to compromise  his own beliefs and even his own conscience for fear of losing my friendship is behaving more like a sycophant than a friend.   And it certainly isn’t being “genuine.”  
 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

When two “genuine friends” disagree on a matter of conscience, shouldn’t respect go both ways?

One of the primary differences between my closest friends and my other friends is that when my closest friends believe I am wrong, they tell me I am wrong.  I certainly do not expect my closest friends to support my behavior if doing so would violate their own conscience.  

Frankly, a friend who is afraid to disagree with me or is willing to compromise  his own beliefs and even his own conscience for fear of losing my friendship is behaving more like a sycophant than a friend.   And it certainly isn’t being “genuine.”  
 

If you were my friend and you started telling me I should not have married the person I love and committed my life to.  If you started telling me my marriage was an abomination and my children should not be baptized, I would probably put your calls on ignore?  When you feel it is your place to tell me how I should run my life then you are not really showing love and friendship.  You are trying to control how I choose to live.  Have you ever told one of your friends that you think their marriage is an abomination?  And that they can't or shouldn't be married to their spouse?  How did that go?

Maybe I am naive but I don't really call that friendship or showing love.  There is a big difference between having two different approaches and even values in life and telling your "friend" how he should live his life according to your standards and beliefs.  I think most friends would be ok with however their friend lived their life as long as it didn't infringe on how I lived my life.  If someone asks for help in changing their life, then that is a different matter.  Just my opinion.  Perhaps I view friendship and love differently than you do.  And that is ok.  

[Guest]

On September 7, 2016 at 2:49 PM, stemelbow said:

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/4325258-155/lord-giveth-and-new-manual-taketh

The trib is reporting that it's confirmed the new policy will be out of the coming manual.  That's a good thing.  What does that say about revelation, policy?

I have lived long enough and seen enough to know that dispite policy additions, or changes that there is always who stand ready to "steady the Ark". Even if it is the same leaders who first put forth any policy that can cause harm, they will step forward and Apostles of Jesus Christ and change whenever necessary. I never thought this policy would remain, and I doubted not in the power of The Holy Spirit, to soften the hearts of all involved. 

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes, i think that someone can reject my marriage because they believe it's not of God and still respect me as a person.   Yes, you can reject my fundamental beliefs and still be a genuine friend.  Yes, you can have beliefs about the appropriateness of my children joining your church and as long as you are sincerely kind to my kids you are still being kind.

Yes.  Yes!  You can disagree with my fundamental beliefs and still show me love.  It's a travesty that so many in our country have lost sight of that.  It's going to be the ruin of us-this inability to feel loved and respected by those who believe differently than us. 

Claiming that disrespect, rejection, shunning, and love can all comfortably coexist just makes the "love" claim come across as empty words to me. 

For me, though obviously not for everyone, love should mean a little more. 

[rockpond]

4 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

When two “genuine friends” disagree on a matter of conscience, shouldn’t respect go both ways?

One of the primary differences between my closest friends and my other friends is that when my closest friends believe I am wrong, they tell me I am wrong.  I certainly do not expect my closest friends to support my behavior if doing so would violate their own conscience.  

Frankly, a friend who is afraid to disagree with me or is willing to compromise  his own beliefs and even his own conscience for fear of losing my friendship is behaving more like a sycophant than a friend.   And it certainly isn’t being “genuine.”  
 

Agreed

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

Let me try again then (but why don’t you simply clarify your point so I might better understand?).

 

You said, in the point you were making, that love is not an action. I take that to be a feeling, a relationship, an attribute or even a possession.

 

You also said, in the point you were making, that one can reject ssm and still try to show love (as a feeling, a relationship, an attribute or even a possession).

 

 

 

Your point that you don’t think that this kind of love will be felt by the average LGBT person in their interaction with those who reject ssm is horrible. First, you a clumping people into a general category and deciding what is average about their emotional capacity. It dehumanizes them. Second, it characterizes them as basing the primary language and currency of love on one’s position on ssm.

 

If someone close to me told me my family is counterfeit (and his opinion mattered to me, and a relationship with him was important to me), I would not assume that means he does not love me, my spouse or my children. If there were friction about it, I would draw a circle and take him in. If he is not close to me, it probably wouldn’t matter much to me, and my friendship with him would certainly have to evolve on another basis, as well it should!

 

If I belonged to the LDS Church and understood her teachings on the subject, I would certainly strive to get my life, marriage and family in order. I would try to comply with the Lord’s will because I love Him. I would strive to keep my relationships saintly. If anyone were to express things in an offensive way, I would try to be charitable in my response.

 

To say that the average person doesn’t feel loved because of a particular religious position on marriage and family trivializes the underlying causes of a person not feeling loved within a relationship or community.

 

And yes, marriage and having children are forms of behavior, the first an institutionalized behavior and the second a natural behavior.

Let me put it really simply:  Nothing is more important to me than my wife and children.  Reject them and you don't love me.  Full stop. 

[JLHPROF]

49 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Let me put it really simply:  Nothing is more important to me than my wife and children.  Reject them and you don't love me.  Full stop. 

I understand why you feel that way, but that is still not a correct gospel principle.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I understand why you feel that way, but that is still not a correct gospel principle.

Good grief!