Sunday School

[waveslider]

8 minutes ago, cdowis said:

They were commanded to have children, so the assumption is that they had the capability to do so.  That assumption was incorrect in the sense that they were physically able to do so, but they had not discovered their nakedness, so, like children, they did not have the desire to do so.

At least, so says cdowis who has figured this out.

Well an assumption is by no means reason enough to think that the mainstream Christians got it right. Since when was Christ ever mainstream anyway?

[Tacenda]

It's scary raising my hand in Gospel Doctrine, I rarely ever did in all my years as a member. At the beginning of my faith crisis I listened to Christian radio, and some shows with EV's and their talk that Grace is without works. Well, one day our teacher, a woman, who later became the RS president, taught a lesson on our works. Well dummy me, raises my hand and asks her about the scripture that works, is like a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

She told me she had never heard of that scripture. And then the class just moved on with no comment. Boy did I feel bad. After that, she rarely spoke to me. And we were okay friends before, she was my VT'er at one time.

But I really needed to know more about that scripture myself, and not bring it up like that. 

 

 

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's scary raising my hand in Gospel Doctrine, I rarely ever did in all my years as a member. At the beginning of my faith crisis I listened to Christian radio, and some shows with EV's and their talk that Grace is without works. Well, one day our teacher, a woman, who later became the RS president, taught a lesson on our works. Well dummy me, raises my hand and asks her about the scripture that works, is like a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

She told me she had never heard of that scripture. And then the class just moved on with no comment. Boy did I feel bad. After that, she rarely spoke to me. And we were okay friends before, she was my VT'er at one time.

But I really needed to know more about that scripture myself, and not bring it up like that. 

 

 

You didn't do anything wrong with bringing up that verse.  It would have been an awesome discussion, but it just sounds like she wasn't prepared to lead it and didn't give anyone else a chance to do so.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

It's scary raising my hand in Gospel Doctrine, I rarely ever did in all my years as a member. At the beginning of my faith crisis I listened to Christian radio, and some shows with EV's and their talk that Grace is without works. Well, one day our teacher, a woman, who later became the RS president, taught a lesson on our works. Well dummy me, raises my hand and asks her about the scripture that works, is like a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

She told me she had never heard of that scripture. And then the class just moved on with no comment. Boy did I feel bad. After that, she rarely spoke to me. And we were okay friends before, she was my VT'er at one time.

But I really needed to know more about that scripture myself, and not bring it up like that.

 

 

You did the right thing.  It was on topic, relevant, and something that was of concern to you.

But I wouldn't have expected any resolution in a Sunday School setting.  We can't even all agree on the board as to what a work is or how it relates to faith.
And debates in Sunday School aren't good.
But I think a well studied teacher should have been able to answer your question since it was on topic for their lesson.

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's scary raising my hand in Gospel Doctrine, I rarely ever did in all my years as a member. At the beginning of my faith crisis I listened to Christian radio, and some shows with EV's and their talk that Grace is without works. Well, one day our teacher, a woman, who later became the RS president, taught a lesson on our works. Well dummy me, raises my hand and asks her about the scripture that works, is like a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

She told me she had never heard of that scripture. And then the class just moved on with no comment. Boy did I feel bad. After that, she rarely spoke to me. And we were okay friends before, she was my VT'er at one time.

But I really needed to know more about that scripture myself, and not bring it up like that. 

 

 

It's not unlike what Mosiah had to say:
"20  I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
21  I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."
Mosiah 2:20-21

We will never be profitable servants. This isn't the reason we are to keep the commandments. We are to keep them because we love God and our Savior:
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
John 14:15

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's scary raising my hand in Gospel Doctrine, I rarely ever did in all my years as a member. At the beginning of my faith crisis I listened to Christian radio, and some shows with EV's and their talk that Grace is without works. Well, one day our teacher, a woman, who later became the RS president, taught a lesson on our works. Well dummy me, raises my hand and asks her about the scripture that works, is like a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

She told me she had never heard of that scripture. And then the class just moved on with no comment. Boy did I feel bad. After that, she rarely spoke to me. And we were okay friends before, she was my VT'er at one time.

But I really needed to know more about that scripture myself, and not bring it up like that. 

 

 

I'm sorry about that.  This is one of the reasons I am glad for the teacher councils. The councils can help teachers know what to do when things like this happen.  And I don't mean that your question was a bad or wrong thing.  I actually think it was a good thing.  

Sometimes get in lesson mode rather than people mode.  They are nervous.  Or determined to teach what they planned.  Or are not sure how to answer the question.  Or not sure what you mean by it.  I'm hoping that with the teacher councils it will help the teachers with this kind of thing.  

I would have probably asked you where that was and then had everyone turn to it.  Then asked for thoughts on it.  What a great opportunity for discussion!  

I just spent 2 years Gospel Principles and I found that the regular members of the class lived for questions from the investigators and new members.  I found that not only were they able to bear their testimony that way,  but there was a lot of learning going on within people of decades long membership.  

If a teacher concentrates on the students instead of the lesson plan then questions like yours can bring a lot to the class. 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's scary raising my hand in Gospel Doctrine, I rarely ever did in all my years as a member. At the beginning of my faith crisis I listened to Christian radio, and some shows with EV's and their talk that Grace is without works. Well, one day our teacher, a woman, who later became the RS president, taught a lesson on our works. Well dummy me, raises my hand and asks her about the scripture that works, is like a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

She told me she had never heard of that scripture. And then the class just moved on with no comment. Boy did I feel bad. After that, she rarely spoke to me. And we were okay friends before, she was my VT'er at one time.

But I really needed to know more about that scripture myself, and not bring it up like that. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

It's not unlike what Mosiah had to say:
"20  I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
21  I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."
Mosiah 2:20-21

We will never be profitable servants. This isn't the reason we are to keep the commandments. We are to keep them because we love God and our Savior:
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
John 14:15

I've created another thread for you Tacenda.  I think it is a good question and hopefully there will be things said that will help you.

 

[Garden Girl]

10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

It is never good to disobey God. When we won't obey with exactness we need to repent.

Most of us fall short of obeying with exactness... perfect obedience... But I seriously desire and strive to do so and Heavenly Father knows that... knows my heart.  So I do repent and rely on the atonement...

GG 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Most of us here I think would be capable of being gospel doctrine teachers

For me that means that since I sustained the present teacher, I have taken on the responsibility of helping her teach the lesson as she has planned it.  That makes me in effect a co-teacher.

It is not my responsibility to sit back and expect to be entertained, nor is it my responsibility to cause controversy which detracts from her ability to control the class

If I am bored, I would need to bring in an important point about the subject from previous lessons I had heard, or look up a scripture that I think also applies which would help the discussion.

We should always consider ourselves as part of the ward leadership with a responsibility to lead others to Christ.  Many members are as children- and sometimes we need to act as if we are teaching a primary class.  At least from our perspective, it might seem that way.

The bishop is the "father of the ward" and we should take on that role as a parent to those less knowledgeable than we are in the ward.  We need to guide the "big brothers and sisters" in the ward family- the teachers- especially if we are more accomplished as "parents", guiding without being pushy with suggestions and interesting points to discuss if they do not come up with them themselves.   But the prime directive is do no disrupt- but help in every way possible, and remember there really are adult "children" in the gospel there in the class who know virtually nothing about the church.

Pretend you are a co-teacher in primary if necessary.  That is what leadership feels like most of the time.

This is beautiful. 

I attend my gospel doctrine class whenever I can -- which is almost all of the time -- because I view it as my responsibility to help the lesson progress through the comments I make. 

When I taught gospel doctrine, I so appreciated those I could count on from week to week to help me establish essential points through their stimulating, wise, heartfelt and doctrinally accurate comments. It seems there are always one or two of these in each class. 

And by the way, in our ward, we have always had good, stimulating lessons with a plethora of comments from the class, as well in the years before and after I taught it as in the time when I and my co-teachers were in charge. 

[bluebell]

I've found that any gospel doctrine lesson that breeds discussion is a good lesson. And likewise, no matter how many diagrams, handouts, power points, and videos the teacher has prepared, if there is little discussion the lesson falls flat. 

In my opinion a good teacher is one who knows what questions to ask and how to give positive feedback to people who comment so that people are willing to do so. 

I hate it when teachers ask a question or for examples but then are so busy thinking about their next point that they don't really acknowledge what was just said. 

[thesometimesaint]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Adam and Eve had to be cast out and die or else they'd be lesser than they could become.  How is a necessary step to progress not good, is beyond me.  But people are getting hung up on it, so I'll let you guys wallow around stuck on that word.

The Scriptures tell us they would have remained in the state of innocence knowing no good or evil forever. So the Plan was for God to command Adam and Eve to eat as was done on other worlds. Satan, to his eternal condemnation usurped that role, and claimed authority and credit that was not his.

Edited September 2, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[Tacenda]

48 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've found that any gospel doctrine lesson that breeds discussion is a good lesson. And likewise, no matter how many diagrams, handouts, power points, and videos the teacher has prepared, if there is little discussion the lesson falls flat. 

In my opinion a good teacher is one who knows what questions to ask and how to give positive feedback to people who comment so that people are willing to do so. 

I hate it when teachers ask a question or for examples but then are so busy thinking about their next point that they don't really acknowledge what was just said. 

I think you are right, often times the hand outs and the diagrams etc. can distract. I will never forget the simplicity of my brother in law during a vacation on Lake Powell. My in laws are really obedient about keeping the Sabbath day holy, and on vacation we had Sacrament meeting on a boat, haha.

Anyway, back to this BIL, he gave the most simple lesson. I almost judged him for making it too easy. But after it was over, I absolutely loved it and remember it always, don't remember what it was about, just remember how the simplicity was so powerful!

Hard to explain, you'd have to have been there.

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

The Scriptures tell us they would have remained in the state of innocence knowing no good or evil forever. So the Plan was for God to command Adam and Eve to eat as was done on other worlds. Satan, to his eternal condemnation usurped that role, and claimed authority and credit that was not his.

Lehi, in 2 Nephi Chapter 2, explains that pretty clearly in his talk with Jacob. Adam and Eve were given two opposing commandments. By obeying the commandment not to eat of the fruit that would give them knowledge of good and evil, they never would have had children. There is no scripture that indicates that God would have eventually told them to eat of that fruit. It does not matter when they partook of it, it would have brought sin into the world because that knowledge would have opened their eyes to their carnal state, and they would have become mortal and subject to death.

Adam and Eve did not sin when they partook of that fruit. They were incapable of sinning because they did not know the difference between right and wrong. They were as little children. Much like my developmentally handicapped son does not know good from evil. For all of his mortal life his development has been arrested at the mental age of a five year old. He knows that some there are some things that people do not like him to do, but he does not know why. But the law was broken, nevertheless. 

This is explained to Moroni in a letter from his father Mormon in Moroni, Chapter eight:

"

 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

 10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children."

Moses 5 clears that one up for us very well. After an angel appeared to Adam and Eve and taught them the plan of salvation, they said:

" 10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

 

Edited to add: Satan did indeed seek to usurp God's position, or rather he sought to thwart God's plan of salvation. He evidently did not understand it and instead enticed Adam and Eve to set in motion the very plan that he, Satan, was attempting to thwart.

 

Glenn

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Glenn101

[Glenn101]

Now, as to the OP of this thread. The way I see it, I am responsible for my own spirituality. When I take time to read the lesson and ponder on the message, I am prepared to participate and add to that lesson. When I do not read the lesson, I start out in a state of relative darkness and have nowhere to go where the teacher takes me. I have the choice of helping, hindering, or maybe just sitting like a rock.

I have tried to help, hope that I have never hindered, but sometimes have imitated a rock. But the choices were and are mine as to how I approach any one Sunday School lesson.

Glenn

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's scary raising my hand in Gospel Doctrine, I rarely ever did in all my years as a member. At the beginning of my faith crisis I listened to Christian radio, and some shows with EV's and their talk that Grace is without works. Well, one day our teacher, a woman, who later became the RS president, taught a lesson on our works. Well dummy me, raises my hand and asks her about the scripture that works, is like a filthy rag.

Isaiah 64:6New International Version (NIV)

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

She told me she had never heard of that scripture. And then the class just moved on with no comment. Boy did I feel bad. After that, she rarely spoke to me. And we were okay friends before, she was my VT'er at one time.

But I really needed to know more about that scripture myself, and not bring it up like that. 

 

 

Well, you're right.  we have created a terrible atmosphere for GD and other Church classes.  many people essentially aren't welcome.  if you ask the wrong thing or make the wrong comment half the others in the class start to suspect you're a wolf in sheep's clothing and you'll find as you keep up attempts at contributing you'll get a few people who make it a point to follow up any question, concern or idea you raise with a pointed attempt to shut you down.  I'm not saying it's not an adorable show.  It is.  Fun to watch.  But we really have an unhealthy environment when it comes to allowing critical thinking or allowing thoughtful participation.  Most of the time I realize it's easiest to just turn it off and repeat nice sounding platitudes.  You don't upset anyone and someone's bound to come up afterward and tell you how grateful they are you contributed. 

15 or so years ago I was the ward mission leader in a Single's ward.  In our efforts we had a number of young people come through eager to learn and see if they fit in Church.  Most of the time they left feeling unwelcome.  While at first they were greeted warmly and invited nicely, when it came down to it, their thoughts and feelings didn't feel welcome.  I remember one such guy who came.  I had met him witht he missionaries and he was a really impressive person.  He came in my estimation sincerely interested.  He wasn't the shy type, so he commented and asked questions during classes.  But as he did, I noticed a select few over the weeks started to really zero in on his critical thinking type questions.  From what I could tell they pretty much had a campaign to shut him down.  Eventually he realized these same few didn't really appreciate his contribution which made him feel unwelcome, which in turn led him right back out. 

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well, you're right.  we have created a terrible atmosphere for GD and other Church classes.  many people essentially aren't welcome.  if you ask the wrong thing or make the wrong comment half the others in the class start to suspect you're a wolf in sheep's clothing and you'll find as you keep up attempts at contributing you'll get a few people who make it a point to follow up any question, concern or idea you raise with a pointed attempt to shut you down.  I'm not saying it's not an adorable show.  It is.  Fun to watch.  But we really have an unhealthy environment when it comes to allowing critical thinking or allowing thoughtful participation.  Most of the time I realize it's easiest to just turn it off and repeat nice sounding platitudes.  You don't upset anyone and someone's bound to come up afterward and tell you how grateful they are you contributed. 

15 or so years ago I was the ward mission leader in a Single's ward.  In our efforts we had a number of young people come through eager to learn and see if they fit in Church.  Most of the time they left feeling unwelcome.  While at first they were greeted warmly and invited nicely, when it came down to it, their thoughts and feelings didn't feel welcome.  I remember one such guy who came.  I had met him witht he missionaries and he was a really impressive person.  He came in my estimation sincerely interested.  He wasn't the shy type, so he commented and asked questions during classes.  But as he did, I noticed a select few over the weeks started to really zero in on his critical thinking type questions.  From what I could tell they pretty much had a campaign to shut him down.  Eventually he realized these same few didn't really appreciate his contribution which made him feel unwelcome, which in turn led him right back out. 

I guess I can get it all out right here in the MDDB ward. The ward of dreams for all of those LDS historians and scholars and the well-read LDS. Unlike me, that are full of questions because they might be a little lazy with reading scriptures or history!

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Now, as to the OP of this thread. The way I see it, I am responsible for my own spirituality. When I take time to read the lesson and ponder on the message, I am prepared to participate and add to that lesson. When I do not read the lesson, I start out in a state of relative darkness and have nowhere to go where the teacher takes me. I have the choice of helping, hindering, or maybe just sitting like a rock.

I have tried to help, hope that I have never hindered, but sometimes have imitated a rock. But the choices were and are mine as to how I approach any one Sunday School lesson.

Glenn

When I read and study the lesson before hand I'm much more prepared to counter points made in the manual (But I'd agree with Teryl Givens that the content of the manuals while sometimes good is often deplorable, something he said in his mormonstories interview).  Ah...we're all different, I guess. 

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

When I read and study the lesson before hand I'm much more prepared to counter points made in the manual (But I'd agree with Teryl Givens that the content of the manuals while sometimes good is often deplorable, something he said in his mormonstories interview).  Ah...we're all different, I guess. 

I don't know if you mean that you are prepared to offer an explanation contrariwise to those in the lesson, or that you are prepared to offer a different perspective to the points. I don't know myself whether it is the problem with the manuals are maybe it's just that so many of the instructors are not trained in the art. Maybe it is a bit of both. However, I do believe that you and any others who feel that they have something to contribute to the discussion will only help by bringing those points to the attention of the class. Maybe the instructor doesn't invite discussion, but I will often just raise my hand to interject something I feel pertinent and could be beneficial. Maybe your point(s) could be a bit controversial, but if it presented properly, an intersting and maybe enlightening discussion can be the result.

Glenn

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I don't know if you mean that you are prepared to offer an explanation contrariwise to those in the lesson, or that you are prepared to offer a different perspective to the points. I don't know myself whether it is the problem with the manuals are maybe it's just that so many of the instructors are not trained in the art. Maybe it is a bit of both. However, I do believe that you and any others who feel that they have something to contribute to the discussion will only help by bringing those points to the attention of the class. Maybe the instructor doesn't invite discussion, but I will often just raise my hand to interject something I feel pertinent and could be beneficial. Maybe your point(s) could be a bit controversial, but if it presented properly, an intersting and maybe enlightening discussion can be the result.

Glenn

Thanks.  I agree.  Of course GD class is quite large.  I really try not to comment much because I feel myself wanting to interject constantly, which can't be helpful.  I try to be pretty thoughtful about when I interject, even if sometimes I fail and blabber something that isn't so helpful. 

 

[thesometimesaint]

12 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

Most of us fall short of obeying with exactness... perfect obedience... But I seriously desire and strive to do so and Heavenly Father knows that... knows my heart.  So I do repent and rely on the atonement...

GG 

Agreed.

[thesometimesaint]

4 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Lehi, in 2 Nephi Chapter 2, explains that pretty clearly in his talk with Jacob. Adam and Eve were given two opposing commandments. By obeying the commandment not to eat of the fruit that would give them knowledge of good and evil, they never would have had children. There is no scripture that indicates that God would have eventually told them to eat of that fruit. It does not matter when they partook of it, it would have brought sin into the world because that knowledge would have opened their eyes to their carnal state, and they would have become mortal and subject to death.

Adam and Eve did not sin when they partook of that fruit. They were incapable of sinning because they did not know the difference between right and wrong. They were as little children. Much like my developmentally handicapped son does not know good from evil. For all of his mortal life his development has been arrested at the mental age of a five year old. He knows that some there are some things that people do not like him to do, but he does not know why. But the law was broken, nevertheless. 

This is explained to Moroni in a letter from his father Mormon in Moroni, Chapter eight:

"

 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

 10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children."

Moses 5 clears that one up for us very well. After an angel appeared to Adam and Eve and taught them the plan of salvation, they said:

" 10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

 

Edited to add: Satan did indeed seek to usurp God's position, or rather he sought to thwart God's plan of salvation. He evidently did not understand it and instead enticed Adam and Eve to set in motion the very plan that he, Satan, was attempting to thwart.

 

Glenn

 

Largely agree, but I believe Satan knew what he was doing, and did it because he knew it had been done on other worlds.

Edited September 2, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[Scott Lloyd]

On 9/1/2016 at 9:17 PM, bluebell said:

I've found that any gospel doctrine lesson that breeds discussion is a good lesson. And likewise, no matter how many diagrams, handouts, power points, and videos the teacher has prepared, if there is little discussion the lesson falls flat. 

In my opinion a good teacher is one who knows what questions to ask and how to give positive feedback to people who comment so that people are willing to do so. 

I hate it when teachers ask a question or for examples but then are so busy thinking about their next point that they don't really acknowledge what was just said. 

Off-topic, but I just noticed you have surpassed 10,000 rep points. Well done.

You were close last I looked; now, you have already exceeded it by 47.

(I do this despite the fear that Nemesis might disapprove. He has been dinging me for little things lately.)

Edited September 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[CV75]

On 9/1/2016 at 11:07 AM, stemelbow said:

Oh well...lamenting I guess.  Thoughts on this are most certainly welcome. 

The people of Ammon buried their weapons of destruction that were used in wickedness, and we too are invited to bury our weapons of spiritual destruction. They supported the battle through other means (using the "weapon" of rendering material aid to their protectors), and so can we. A repentant child molester never serves in Primary but sustains those who do. A reforming gossip looks only for the good in people and anonymously advances the reputation of those whose reputations he has ruined. In other words, you lay down your misused weapon and the misuse of weaponry, but not yourself or your efforts to use the weapons of righteousness well.

I think the lesson we learn from Eve is far broader than that of exact obedience. Exact obedience is only one application of what she and Adam learned going forward from their transgression, which was a far different act than one of “exact disobedience” in light of their having been given two original commandments.