Moral concerns regarding the doctrine of the preexistence

[RevTestament]

53 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

I've been thinking about this some more and appreciate ALL the responses. I agree that God certainly has a bigger perspective than we do (which is what many here have posted in some way shape or form). I guess what it boils down to is how some days I have such a hard time accepting that God knows evil beforehand and allows it to happen. I know that this is an old theological chestnut, but man when I talk to the victims of sexual abuse and other crimes, as well as the devastating nature of addiction and mental health problems, I can kind of see why people become atheists, and wonder why God allowed such horrible things to happen. I guess I need to keep in mind that the majority of my day is spent exploring some horrible things so I'm going to see things in a pessimistic way 

To live godly is to learn how to respond to challenges we face in life. God does promise to help those who learn to rely on Him tho. The reason we are here is to become more like Him, and to learn how to overcome Satan. We are not here to live the life of paradise - that is another estate. Therefore, we are subjected to all manner of wickedness, evil, selfishness, etc. Being a follower of Christ helps us learn to overcome these things. 

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

This is the lesson given us by Adam from the beginning, and is the reason for the fall. It was a choice Adam made to save Eve or the church.

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Nehor, 

Let the god have those handicaps 50-60-70 years day & night, rather than three days....

Jesus endured all 70 years of everyone who endured for that long and longer for those who endured longer. To en external observer the process took a relatively short period of time. I doubt Jesus would agree that the brevity made it easier. Part of the pain he endured was the despair many feel at being trapped in a life of pain with no relief. He had to endure it so he could heal that pain as well.

[USU78]

On 8/7/2016 at 9:20 PM, The Nehor said:

Since the whole plan is based on one man/God coming here and suffering even more unimaginable pain and suffering I think we can conclude God thinks it worth it.

premortality also comes with the suggestion that we volunteered for this process. One small mercy is that life may be nasty and brutish but it is, at least, short.

The whole Eden mythos confirms that we make our own choice about how we enter this world and what we make of ourselves once we're here.  Adam/Eve chose.  We choose.  You can place that choice in the "pre-existence," Eden or here on the Telestial sphere, but the choice remains the same.

"I didn't ask to be born with X" makes no sense, since I did ask to be born in a place were X is a very probable conditional outcome of my birth.

[USU78]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The actual LDS belief is that all will have a chance to hear the gospel if not here, on the other side, and virtually all will accept it and have a fair chance at the Celestial Kingdom.

That is a central part of the actual Plan of Salvation as opposed to your version

Every knee shall bow  ...

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Nehor, 

Let the god have those handicaps 50-60-70 years day & night, rather than three days....

?

The G-d Who weeps for the suffering of His erring children is a G-d who suffers more than a bit longer than 3 days, AM.

[Atheist Mormon]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Jesus endured all 70 years of everyone who endured for that long and longer for those who endured longer. To en external observer the process took a relatively short period of time. I doubt Jesus would agree that the brevity made it easier. Part of the pain he endured was the despair many feel at being trapped in a life of pain with no relief. He had to endure it so he could heal that pain as well.

I can do math Nehor. it was three days.

 

[Atheist Mormon]

12 minutes ago, USU78 said:

?

The G-d Who weeps for the suffering of His erring children is a G-d who suffers more than a bit longer than 3 days, AM.

yea.....No amount of weeping will help to some of humanity......

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I can do math Nehor. it was three days.

 

And because it was three days (psst...it was actually shorter) you assume that a divine being facing a divine experience would only experience exactly 72 hours of stuff? Have they developed higher systems of math to account for these kinds of things? If so, why was I not told?

Edited August 9, 2016 by The Nehor

[USU78]

13 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

yea.....No amount of weeping will help to some of humanity......

I know it wants to be an English-language sentence, but it's just not quite getting there.  Care to clarify?

[Atheist Mormon]

36 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I know it wants to be an English-language sentence, but it's just not quite getting there.  Care to clarify?

No, I don't care....It is clear enough......

Unlike the entity you defend having been suffered, we have no idea whether he existed or not....Nobody has seen him, even Apostle Paul saw him in a trance, not in reality....Come to think of it I had better visions.

[UtahTexan]

4 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No, I don't care....It is clear enough......

Unlike the entity you defend having been suffered, we have no idea whether he existed or not....Nobody has seen him, even Apostle Paul saw him in a trance, not in reality....Come to think of it I had better visions.

Let me see if I understand your issue.  If you have never seen someone or something, it does not exist?

[Atheist Mormon]

46 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Let me see if I understand your issue.  If you have never seen someone or something, it does not exist?

 

Yes, I do, I don't think it exists...what should I take your word for it? 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 

Yes, I do, I don't think it exists...what should I take your word for it? 

Faith is about evidence that points you towards things you cannot see.
If you have seen no evidence of God in your life sufficient to make you think a God might exist (faith) then I feel badly for you.
Either God has not been present in your life or you have been unable to recognize Him.  Either way that is very sad.

[UtahTexan]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Faith is about evidence that points you towards things you cannot see.
If you have seen no evidence of God in your life sufficient to make you think a God might exist (faith) then I feel badly for you.
Either God has not been present in your life or you have been unable to recognize Him.  Either way that is very sad.

I agree

Edited August 9, 2016 by CountryBoy

[UtahTexan]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 

Yes, I do, I don't think it exists...what should I take your word for it? 

Ah....

 

Have you ever seen Jupiter, other than in a picture?

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Let me see if I understand your issue.  If you have never seen someone or something, it does not exist?

well, if you talk about the Oxygen I breathe or the distant moons of the planets but they are easily verified.....

If you write about a supernatural being or event the answer is yes I never seen it or witnessed any miracles that I could not explain by scientific way....

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, Atheist Mormon said:

well, if you talk about the Oxygen I breathe or the distant moons of the planets but they are easily verified.....

If you write about a supernatural being or event the answer is yes I never seen it or witnessed any miracles that I could not explain by scientific way....

I was not talking about O2.  I mentioned Jupiter. 

But, apparently, if you cannot see it, you won;t believe it...unless it suits you.

Makes perfect sense.

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

Yes. I mentioned that in my post.  Maybe you can help me here. Do you think it is important for someone to join the church here on earth?  If they do, what benefit is it to them to accept it here rather than after they die?  Why do you think people don't join the church?  Are they wrong to not accept it?  Do you think people don't join the church because they  are wicked or want to sin?  

What's your point?

Would it be better to start college because you had that capability at 12 years of age?  Of course it is better to learn more here than after you have passed.  What is your point?

People do not join the church here because of all the confusion in this life, and of course they are not wrong to not accept it.  I would never have accepted it even if- and especially if- I had been born into it.

People rebel against doctrines they do not understand as is shown here every single day- and in this thread for that matter.   The church and God are not as strict as some weird Utahns think.  Honestly you don't burn in hell for playing with face cards or drinking caffeinated cola.  

Your point??

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Five Solas said:

.  I realize these specific examples may have fallen from favor here in 2016--but the broader idea still stands, right? 

--Erik

Please read this again and again until you figure out it is self-contradictory

Why is that view being abandoned?  Because it is wrong and never made sense unless you believe- as this thread implies- that we are pre-destined.

That belief is incorrect

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

I was not talking about O2.  I mentioned Jupiter. 

But, apparently, if you cannot see it, you won;t believe it...unless it suits you.

Makes perfect sense.

Man, I'm little over sixty, achieved every success in my life  (from smart car to Range Rover, you name it). And yet I did not see a microscopic clue of a Supernatural Entity or influence that would make any appearance......Nothing that I achieved or brought me misery was caused by an external influence (such as Holy Ghost, Jesus or God...you name it) 

When you say if you cannot see it, you won;t believe it...unless it suits you. do you think this is because lack of effort? Heck I was married in Manti Temple in 1980, believing everything......

You can mock/ridicule all you want (not offended)...but it is reality....

[UtahTexan]

16 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Man, I'm little over sixty, achieved every success in my life  (from smart car to Range Rover, you name it). And yet I did not see a microscopic clue of a Supernatural Entity or influence that would make any appearance......Nothing that I achieved or brought me misery was caused by an external influence (such as Holy Ghost, Jesus or God...you name it) 

When you say if you cannot see it, you won;t believe it...unless it suits you. do you think this is because lack of effort? Heck I was married in Manti Temple in 1980, believing everything......

You can mock/ridicule all you want (not offended)...but it is reality....

Well, I am 56.....and I have achieved every success in life....from successful attorney to elected official, to military officer, (and that is not all).  And I have seen much evidence of Heavenly Father.   And usually, it has required no effort at all.

You can deny/ridicule all you want (not offended)....but God is reality.

[strappinglad]

And there, folks , lies the rub. Some see God in a leaf and others see no God in anything. I was watching some NDE experiences on youtube for fun and one fellow said that in the heavenly realm he had no memory of his earthly experiences at all. He just said he knew he was home. As sam has often said, interesting.

[boblloyd91]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

To live godly is to learn how to respond to challenges we face in life. God does promise to help those who learn to rely on Him tho. The reason we are here is to become more like Him, and to learn how to overcome Satan. We are not here to live the life of paradise - that is another estate. Therefore, we are subjected to all manner of wickedness, evil, selfishness, etc. Being a follower of Christ helps us learn to overcome these things. 

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

This is the lesson given us by Adam from the beginning, and is the reason for the fall. It was a choice Adam made to save Eve or the church.

I get this logically but not emotionally.

[RevTestament]

15 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

I get this logically but not emotionally.

I figured that is where you are at. Let me assure you I have run the emotional gammut on some of the challenges I have faced. I would not want to repeat these experiences - some were very hard lessons learned. But often they bring us to a place where we are more humble before the Lord.

The plain truth is those who will be favored by the Lord are also those He will try.

Daniel 11:35

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

It sucks while you are going through it tho. There is no molly-coddle answer to it.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What's your point?

Would it be better to start college because you had that capability at 12 years of age?  Of course it is better to learn more here than after you have passed.  What is your point?

People do not join the church here because of all the confusion in this life, and of course they are not wrong to not accept it.  I would never have accepted it even if- and especially if- I had been born into it.

People rebel against doctrines they do not understand as is shown here every single day- and in this thread for that matter.   The church and God are not as strict as some weird Utahns think.  Honestly you don't burn in hell for playing with face cards or drinking caffeinated cola.  

Your point??

My point was to find out what you think about the questions I asked.  Is there an answer to those questions somewhere in your response?