Missionaries leaving

[salgare]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I have to admit in working with the local missionaries the work is bleak.  They don't have much going for them.  I think back on my mission and it felt far more filled with day-to-day interaction, activity, and fun.  Seeing it from my perspective makes me feel like these kids are missing out.  I don't know quite what it is, other than, for one thing, they are all in the Salt Lake Valley.  Most people they see are people who every familiarity with the Church and are tired of it.  Years ago I was the Ward Mission leader in a different area of the Valley and it was much different then.  Many more contacts and many more interesting people willing to at least discuss things. 

Our stake President councilor spoke this past Sunday and said he knows, somehow, that activity in the US is 33% and in our area it's lower.  I thought that odd because about 5 years ago our SP reported that activity rate in most wards in our stake was at 40%.  If activity dropped 7% in the past 5 years, that'd be awful.  It's possible though.  Our stake has cut out two wards in the past year.  We were told they did this because M Priesthood holders were so low relative to total membership count in our wards.  For some reason that rate kept going down for the past few years. 

I think the Church in traditional is a bit too exclusive and insular.  I'd love to see that change. Many people in ward boundaries I've been in who aren't LDS feel very excluded from their neighbors.  Members are typically aware of that issue but even if trying to address it the problem remains.  I'd love for Church to be more open in it's teaching and instructing.  I'd love to see more depth in Church discussion settings.  I'd love to see more focused and applicable lessons.  More flexible and open rules about the lessons (the whole sticking to the manual is rubbish).  I'd love us to drop the attitude of being better or blessed beyond others.  I'd love more service focused on things that matter rather than getting sister Johnson's weeds cleared.  I'd love it if the Church would stop with the rhetoric and teaching regarding homosexuality.  I'd love to see better embrace of women.  I'd love it if the Bishop wasn't so in control and influential but rather was able to share in his responsibilities more. 

Man there's tons.

I'm sorry stemlbow, here along the Wasatch Front (Mormon corridor), things are hunky dory.  Your input therefore is obviously wrong.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, salgare said:

I'm sorry stemlbow, here along the Wasatch Front (Mormon corridor), things are hunky dory.  Your input therefore is obviously wrong.

Oh man...why can't I, at the very least, thumbs up this post?  Awesome.

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

To me, the issue is the purpose of a mission. Is it to find and baptize converts, or is it to convert the missionaries themselves? If it's both, how do you balance or prioritize those goals? I'm glad that's not anything I will ever have to deal with. 

I think it's both, but I think the conversion of the missionary is a higher priority.

Quote

The decision to serve a mission will shape the spiritual destiny of the missionary, his or her spouse, and their posterity for generations to come. Elder Nelson

 

[James Tunney]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't yet know what it is, but it clearly belies the notion that somehow the internet has stopped people listening to our missionaries. We've only had four convert baptisms in our ward so far this year, but they have been (1) a man studying IT at university, (2) this man's wife, (3) a man in his late 70s who worked in electronics his whole life and whose wife is constantly online (we're Facebook friends), and (4) a 22-year-old man who is one of those young people who simply can't unplug.

I don't think you can judge the whole based on isolated circumstances.  That is a logical fallacy.  Clearly, it is undisputed that in the United States and worldwide convert baptisms are down and the convert baptisms per missionary are down.  I don't want to rain on your positive parade but that is reality.  Nevertheless, it's great for you, I guess, that you seem to be bucking the trend in your area.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, James Tunney said:

I don't think you can judge the whole based on isolated circumstances.  That is a logical fallacy.  Clearly, it is undisputed that in the United States and worldwide convert baptisms are down and the convert baptisms per missionary are down.  I don't want to rain on your positive parade but that is reality.  Nevertheless, it's great for you, I guess, that you seem to be bucking the trend in your area.

I think it's worth pointing out that in some places the Church is doing really well in. 

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Oh man...why can't I, at the very least, thumbs up this post?  Awesome.

I agree.

[ERMD]

2 hours ago, salgare said:

Of course to shelter the young man. Perhaps I have a bit of inoculation serum for him?  Perhaps some come home and don't return because of the brutal slap in the face from all they have been protected from.

I'm sure you have their best interest at heart.

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I think it's both, but I think the conversion of the missionary is a higher priority.

I think so, too. I'm just wondering if the odds of that happening go up or down with the lowered age limit. I would think those who go home early are less likely to stay with the program.

[salgare]

31 minutes ago, ERMD said:

I'm sure you have their best interest at heart.

Of course I do.  Are you suggesting I would want to hurt them?

I would gladly spend the time and put together lessons for them.

Edited August 4, 2016 by salgare

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, salgare said:

Yes, pray the day is finally upon us!  Father, come quickly and cleanse this filthy earth.  Hell we should join the Radical Islamic and quit just praying and talking about it, but put our desires to actions!

Who said anything about wanting it to happen quickly? It is sad to watch the people of this Earth turn further and further from the one who created all of us. The reason for missionary work in the first place is to try and make it so that there wouldn't even need to be a cleansing by sharing the truth and light, purely by freedom of choice, not at the threat of being murdered. Do you honestly think the Earth is ready for a fully glorified God to come here and reign, in it's present state, let alone if it were to get worse enough to make missionary work completely ineffective? Do you think that everyone actually worships God righteously? That people always deal honestly with each other, in every single dealing? If so you must live on a different Earth than I do. This Earth is far from ready to receive Christ in the fullness of His glory.

I am not implying that only Mormons will endure the tribulations, and not be burned at Christ's second coming. It will only be the pure in Heart who survive the cleansing, which will be anyone who isn't evil, regardless of religious affiliation or not. Radical Islam on the other hand wants to tax and murder every single person who won't convert to Islam. They aren't expecting their God to do the killing either, but rather themselves. Let's see according to you, believing the prophecies of Daniel, Isaiah, John, etc., equates to joining a purely evil cult that calls for the taxation and the murder of absolutely every human being on this planet who won't join their evil cult? It is sad to see such blindness in people that they can't even differentiate the difference between truth and light, from pure darkness and evil. And we wonder why there will need to be a cleansing first?

[waveslider]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

God doesn't make plans or speak in words. Revelation is identical to inspiration, and sometimes inspiration can be flawed. 

If God doesn't/didn't make plans, then why is the Plan Of Happiness/Salvation called a plan at all? God does speak in words sometimes. I personally have received words in my own personal revelations before, it is very rare for me to get revelation/inspiration that way, but I can attest to the fact that Yes God does speak in words sometimes. Heck what did Jesus and John the baptist hear at Jesus' baptism? Or what did Joseph Smith hear in his first vision? It sounds like God does speak in words sometimes.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, waveslider said:

If God doesn't/didn't make plans, then why is the Plan Of Happiness/Salvation called a plan at all? God does speak in words sometimes. I personally have received words in my own personal revelations before, it is very rare for me to get revelation/inspiration that way, but I can attest to the fact that Yes God does speak in words sometimes. Heck what did Jesus and John the baptist hear at Jesus' baptism? Or what did Joseph Smith hear in his first vision? It sounds like God does speak in words sometimes.

This is my personal religious belief. There is no way to argue that mine is true and yours is false or vice versa. 

[waveslider]

20 minutes ago, Gray said:

This is my personal religious belief. There is no way to argue that mine is true and yours is false or vice versa. 

I can agree do disagree. No problem.

[cinepro]

I live in the Los Angeles area which can be tough for finding converts (I can't remember the last convert baptism in my ward).  But I have a really nice elderly neighbor who was recently in the hospital for a few months and is now convalescing at home.  My wife went over to ask if he needed anything, and he said he was actually looking for someone to wash his car.  My wife volunteered the missionaries.

So last Wednesday evening, they came over and borrowed my car wash stuff and spent the evening washing the car as he sat in his garage talking with them.  Then, when they were done, my wife and I joined them and we sat in his garage and drank sodas and chatted with him while we watched the last inning of a baseball game.  Then the missionaries asked if they could come back to share a message, and he agreed (and they did).

After we got home, my wife said "That was fun", and I stopped her and said, "Are you kidding?  That might have been the greatest night of their missions.  They got to do some service, chat with a non-member, catch the end of a baseball game, and allowed to come back for a discussion.  That's definitely a top-five night for a mission."

 

Then on Sunday we found out they're both getting transferred this week.  Maybe it was the baseball game.

 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I live in the Los Angeles area which can be tough for finding converts (I can't remember the last convert baptism in my ward).  But I have a really nice elderly neighbor who was recently in the hospital for a few months and is now convalescing at home.  My wife went over to ask if he needed anything, and he said he was actually looking for someone to wash his car.  My wife volunteered the missionaries.

So last Wednesday evening, they came over and borrowed my car wash stuff and spent the evening washing the car as he sat in his garage talking with them.  Then, when they were done, my wife and I joined them and we sat in his garage and drank sodas and chatted with him while we watched the last inning of a baseball game.  Then the missionaries asked if they could come back to share a message, and he agreed (and they did).

After we got home, my wife said "That was fun", and I stopped her and said, "Are you kidding?  That might have been the greatest night of their missions.  They got to do some service, chat with a non-member, catch the end of a baseball game, and allowed to come back for a discussion.  That's definitely a top-five night for a mission."

 

Then on Sunday we found out they're both getting transferred this week.  Maybe it was the baseball game.

 

Oh man!  That how it always seems to happen.  I agree though, definitely one of the best kinds of mission nights.

[UtahTexan]

23 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I had a coworker in Utah who had been home from his mission about 25 years. He said the experience was so traumatic that he had refused to give a homecoming talk. I asked him what had happened, and he simply said, "I told you, I don't talk about it."

The only missionaries I know who went home early were sent home for sexual misconduct.  

We can talk about and dwell on the less than 2% of missionaries that come home early, or the 98% that have a great mission and consider it the best 2 years of their life.

I served my mission 1984-1986.  I left the Church in 1989.  I was bitter and hateful.  I hated the Church.  Yet, even in my deepest hate I always considered my mission the best time of my life.

[Guest]

On August 3, 2016 at 3:56 PM, stemelbow said:

I've been told and have witnessed missionaries coming home early and fading away into inactivity or leaving the Church in a very short time frame.

Our SP, some months ago addressed this in a QandA (he brought the questions he was going to answer which was a cute Q and A) at our ward conference.  I don't know how to gauge it Church wide, but he indicated while we've seen it a lot in our stake it is a Church wide issue these days. 

A friend of mine said after his son came home his SP told him he had to enroll in institute and gave him a number of other requirements (going to the temple and volunteering there, etc)--as my friend said.  I don't know if that SP is taking liberties he should not or if it was exaggerated by my friend as in suggestions turned into requirements by my friend (a former active member who rarely attends and doesn't believe anymore).  

It got me thinking, how do we address these types of issues?  Do we put more requirements on each other?  or do we be more open about problems everyone faces? 

My thing is we'll continue to see the problems of people leaving, particularly the younger generations, and we'll continue to see lower conversion rates, until we accept that our traditions need adjusting, our message and focus need reconsidering, and our meddling in other's affairs stop.

But I realize I'm the oddball at Church on this stuff.  Just wondering what people here thought. 

I have seen this 3 times in missionaries I have known over 37 years in the Church. However I have seen threads like this all the time on anti-Mormon websites. Sadly, far to often from those members who visit those sites and since they agree, doing cross posting in an effort to plant "seeds of doubt" in an effort to find others who are like minded, in hopes that they will do the same. Stake Pesidents do not give additional assignments unless it is a condition of an Elder or High Priest going before the Presidency and the High Counsel for displinary actions. Otherwise the only time a Stake President meets with Priesthood holders that are not in Bishopric, High Priest Group leadership and Elder's Quorum President is during a Temple Recommend interview. There is no better training for being a lifelong membership or training than serving a mission, and no better method for developing the soul and training for strong families. God help us if we change, and water down our faith, by becoming like everyone else. People are drawn to our Faith, and remain the in it, because it is different. 

[HappyJackWagon]

10 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

1- I have seen this 3 times in missionaries I have known over 37 years in the Church. However I have seen threads like this all the time on anti-Mormon websites. Sadly, far to often from those members who visit those sites and since they agree, doing cross posting in an effort to plant "seeds of doubt" in an effort to find others who are like minded, in hopes that they will do the same. 2- Stake Pesidents do not give additional assignments unless it is a condition of an Elder or High Priest going before the Presidency and the High Counsel for displinary actions. Otherwise 3- the only time a Stake President meets with Priesthood holders that are not in Bishopric, High Priest Group leadership and Elder's Quorum President is during a Temple Recommend interview. There is no better training for being a lifelong membership or training than serving a mission, and no better method for developing the soul and training for strong families. God help us if we change, and water down our faith, by becoming like everyone else. 4- People are drawn to our Faith, and remain the in it, because it is different. 

Sorry Pa Pa but this just doesn't hold up. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Please correct me where I'm misunderstanding.

1- You've only seen missionaries come home early and go inactive 3 times in the last 37 years? Wow. Where do you live? I've seen that number in the wards in our building in the last 6 months. In  each and every case (I know because I know the returned missionaries well) they were "counseled" to do additional things, even when they came home for medical reasons.

2- What is your source for that. I've worked very closely with a number of SP's and bishops and know very well the extra assignments given to people who are not receiving formal discipline. At the very least, I don't think you're in a position to say was "Stake Presidents" do or don't do, beyond your personal experience.

3- What? Are your SP's phoning it in? Maybe mine are just ambitious and do a great deal of outreach. Claiming the "only" time SP's meet with members just isn't accurate and your experience cannot be conflated to be a universal truth for all SP's. There may be specific times SP's formally schedule meetings with members but to suggest they don't do at any other times is unfounded.

4- I don't believe people are drawn to our faith, or remain, because it is different. There are myriad reasons why people come and remain, but is difference enough to draw them? The harekrishnas seem "different" too, but I guess we'd need to define what they differ from. To the Harekrishna, we are different. To us, the Harekrishna is different. Are we drawn to them because of the difference?

 

Overall, you're making a number of very broad overgeneralizations.

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

The best we can do is speculate based on anecdotal and incomplete information. It would be great to see the church release a study about the impact of missionaries coming home early. As a father preparing to send a son on a mission in the next 2 years I would like some answers before asking him to make that commitment.

1- Prior to the age change, what percentage of missionaries returned home early for reasons of medical, mental, emotional, sin?

2- What are the number post-age change?

3- If there is an increase in the number coming home, to what causes does the church attribute the change?

4- Has there been a church wide change in policy or approach to sending missionaries home early? If so, what are the changes?

5- What percentage of early return missionaries remain active after 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?

 

I do not have trust in the missionary program. I am seeing WAY too many kids coming home early feeling broken. I don't see it as a good risk but the church could ease my mind by answering some questions. Some of the questions I ask would require a new study, but many are numbers they already keep but don't release to the membership.

[jkwilliams]

44 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

The only missionaries I know who went home early were sent home for sexual misconduct.  

We can talk about and dwell on the less than 2% of missionaries that come home early, or the 98% that have a great mission and consider it the best 2 years of their life.

I served my mission 1984-1986.  I left the Church in 1989.  I was bitter and hateful.  I hated the Church.  Yet, even in my deepest hate I always considered my mission the best time of my life.

My coworker didn't go home early, and he doesn't hate the church, as he is an active member. 

[ALarson]

5 hours ago, salgare said:

I'm sorry stemlbow, here along the Wasatch Front (Mormon corridor), things are hunky dory.  Your input therefore is obviously wrong.

Hmmmmm....now who does that sound like? 

[Duncan]

7 hours ago, salgare said:

Of course to shelter the young man. Perhaps I have a bit of inoculation serum for him?  Perhaps some come home and don't return because of the brutal slap in the face from all they have been protected from.

or maybe he didn't like the canned sushi and wasabi beer you gave him

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I live in the Los Angeles area which can be tough for finding converts (I can't remember the last convert baptism in my ward).  But I have a really nice elderly neighbor who was recently in the hospital for a few months and is now convalescing at home.  My wife went over to ask if he needed anything, and he said he was actually looking for someone to wash his car.  My wife volunteered the missionaries.

So last Wednesday evening, they came over and borrowed my car wash stuff and spent the evening washing the car as he sat in his garage talking with them.  Then, when they were done, my wife and I joined them and we sat in his garage and drank sodas and chatted with him while we watched the last inning of a baseball game.  Then the missionaries asked if they could come back to share a message, and he agreed (and they did).

After we got home, my wife said "That was fun", and I stopped her and said, "Are you kidding?  That might have been the greatest night of their missions.  They got to do some service, chat with a non-member, catch the end of a baseball game, and allowed to come back for a discussion.  That's definitely a top-five night for a mission."

 

Then on Sunday we found out they're both getting transferred this week.  Maybe it was the baseball game.

 

I too served in the LA area and don't get me started on what movies and TV shows we saw, directly or indirectly

[salgare]

3 hours ago, waveslider said:

Who said anything about wanting it to happen quickly?

It is sad to watch the people of this Earth turn further and further from the one who created all of us. The reason for missionary work in the first place is to try and make it so that there wouldn't even need to be a cleansing by sharing the truth and light, purely by freedom of choice, not at the threat of being murdered. Do you honestly think the Earth is ready for a fully glorified God to come here and reign, in it's present state, let alone if it were to get worse enough to make missionary work completely ineffective? Do you think that everyone actually worships God righteously? That people always deal honestly with each other, in every single dealing? If so you must live on a different Earth than I do. This Earth is far from ready to receive Christ in the fullness of His glory.

I am not implying that only Mormons will endure the tribulations, and not be burned at Christ's second coming. It will only be the pure in Heart who survive the cleansing, which will be anyone who isn't evil, regardless of religious affiliation or not. Radical Islam on the other hand wants to tax and murder every single person who won't convert to Islam. They aren't expecting their God to do the killing either, but rather themselves. Let's see according to you, believing the prophecies of Daniel, Isaiah, John, etc., equates to joining a purely evil cult that calls for the taxation and the murder of absolutely every human being on this planet who won't join their evil cult? It is sad to see such blindness in people that they can't even differentiate the difference between truth and light, from pure darkness and evil. And we wonder why there will need to be a cleansing first?

It's crazy that the underlying tide of all modern day religion is about the end of the world.  If only we could all take a 10000 foot view of just how crazy, including your above thoughts, this whole cleansing, new Jerusalem, Armageddon deal is, all the way around, all religions.  It seems to be the enemy of humanity.  How can there be any good in these concepts?

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I too served in the LA area and don't get me started on what movies and TV shows we saw, directly or indirectly

We had a standing appointment with an inactive grandmother every sunday night.  We would watch Touched By An Angel.  I admit it was a nice hour!