VideoGameJunkie Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 I'm worried that the men who want and dream of polygamy in the future will be punished by the Lord.
ttribe Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: I am sure one can find a lot of girls who escaped from very bad monogamous families. The fact that some people practice polygamy badly does not mean that it always bad. I didn't say it was always bad. But comparing forced marriages of minors that run rampant amongst the FLDS to "girls who escaped from very bad monogamous families" ignores the rates at which these things occur in the two populations you are referring to. I suspect that the rate of abuse amongst the FLDS is much higher than abuse outside the FLDS. Can you provide a single example of a group of people who are living, or have lived polygamy where there wasn't a devolution into significant abuses, including forced marriages or minors, the treatment of women as property, etc.? I'll eliminate the easy one - the LDS Church's practice of polygamy in the late nineteenth century can't be one of your examples insomuch as the FLDS are direct descendants of that practice.
ttribe Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 31 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm worried that the men who want and dream of polygamy in the future will be punished by the Lord. My observation - you worry too much. 1
Calm Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 38 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm worried that the men who want and dream of polygamy in the future will be punished by the Lord. What do you mean by punished? If they are selfish in their desire, then they will have the chance to be corrected and repent like others. Only those who refuse to repent after learning the truth get punished/have to suffer the spiritual consequences of their sins whatever that might be.
JLHPROF Posted July 16, 2016 Author Posted July 16, 2016 2 hours ago, ttribe said: I didn't say it was always bad. But comparing forced marriages of minors that run rampant amongst the FLDS to "girls who escaped from very bad monogamous families" ignores the rates at which these things occur in the two populations you are referring to. I suspect that the rate of abuse amongst the FLDS is much higher than abuse outside the FLDS. Can you provide a single example of a group of people who are living, or have lived polygamy where there wasn't a devolution into significant abuses, including forced marriages or minors, the treatment of women as property, etc.? I'll eliminate the easy one - the LDS Church's practice of polygamy in the late nineteenth century can't be one of your examples insomuch as the FLDS are direct descendants of that practice. AUB and Centennial Park practice neither child marriage nor forced marriage. As for treatment of women as property that is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Check the temple sealing ceremony and other temple areas and I'm sure you'd see signs of "ownership" whether intended or not.
ttribe Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: AUB and Centennial Park practice neither child marriage nor forced marriage. As for treatment of women as property that is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Check the temple sealing ceremony and other temple areas and I'm sure you'd see signs of "ownership" whether intended or not. And how big are the AUB and Centennial Park communities? As to your "ownership" comment, I think you know that's not what I mean (relative to the Temple).
JLHPROF Posted July 16, 2016 Author Posted July 16, 2016 33 minutes ago, ttribe said: And how big are the AUB and Centennial Park communities? As to your "ownership" comment, I think you know that's not what I mean (relative to the Temple). AUB 7-10,000 CP - 1500-2000
ttribe Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, JLHPROF said: AUB 7-10,000 CP - 1500-2000 Thank you. I will try to keep up with developments in those communities. They both appear to be relatively free from significant allegations of abuse, etc. If I am wrong, so be it. Given the documented abuses amongst the FLDS, Kingstons, etc., I still consider the risks far too great. Edited July 16, 2016 by ttribe
Tacenda Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) 49 minutes ago, ttribe said: Thank you. I will try to keep up with developments in those communities. They both appear to be relatively free from significant allegations of abuse, etc. If I am wrong, so be it. Given the documented abuses amongst the FLDS, Kingstons, etc., I still consider the risks far too great. (bold mine) The bad fruit of polygamy. Edited July 16, 2016 by Tacenda 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 Does anyone here actually believe or think polygamy will ever be reinstated by the Lord again?
JLHPROF Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Does anyone here actually believe or think polygamy will ever be reinstated by the Lord again? I don't believe it was ever stopped. Just permission was temporarily revoked. Kind of like when Moses came down of Mt. Sinai with the higher priesthood ordinances and found the Children of Israel corrupted. So he destroyed the higher law and the Lord gave him the Mosaic law in replacement. Or when the Church stopped living Consecration because the people weren't willing or able. So we got the lesser portion left and the higher portion taken away. The higher laws are never gone, just temporarily replaced by lesser laws. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 7 hours ago, ttribe said: Thank you. I will try to keep up with developments in those communities. They both appear to be relatively free from significant allegations of abuse, etc. If I am wrong, so be it. Given the documented abuses amongst the FLDS, Kingstons, etc., I still consider the risks far too great. No community is abuse free, not even the Church. The issue is institutionalized abuse. Neither the AUB (7-10,00 members) or Centennial Park (1500-2000) have any institutionalized practices of abuse like in the Kingstons (only 1200 members) or the FLDS (6-10,000 members and dropping). There are cases of abuse in these groups as there are in the Church, in the Catholic Church, in ALL religions and non-religious groups. 7 hours ago, Tacenda said: The bad fruit of polygamy. That's like calling the inquisition the bad fruits of Christianity. Not a fair connection to make.
Glenn101 Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 On 7/15/2016 at 9:44 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: I'm worried that the men who want and dream of polygamy in the future will be punished by the Lord. I want and dream of polygamy in the future with my first wife now deceased and my present wife. I have been sealed to both of them. I don't know what will happen in the future though. I do not know if my first wife will accept it. I don't know that I will be worthy enough. But I do not think the Lord will punish me for those desires. Do you have any scriptural references to show that I am wrong? Glenn 2
Stargazer Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) On 7/12/2016 at 11:44 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: I will be 100 percent honest. When it comes to thinking about polygamy being a celestial order, I'm happy that im a man. I can't imagine what women must fear or suffer through. That's an interesting thought. I've done a lot of thinking about it, and I've decided that in eternity women in a plural marriage situation won't suffer at all, but will be blessed beyond their mortal imaginations. We live in a very dark world at present. For one thing, we can only think serially, one thing at a time, and except for special cases when one action gives impetus to two or more results, we can only do one thing at a time. But in the eternity, especially for those of us who inherit all that the Father has, we will be like him. And that is quite scriptural: 1 John 3:2. And if we are like Him, how can we be limited like we are now? He has created an entire Universe! If we had only 1/100th as much power as that, we would be so far beyond what we are now so as to make any comparison completely pointless. How could anyone think that in a plural marriage a being of such exalted power would have any fear or experience any suffering at all? As a husband, you would be able to give 100% of yourself to each and every one of your wives. However many there'd be. Personally, I only want ONE, but that's the mortal and limited me talking. If Latter-day Saints insist upon expecting that their exalted self will be exactly like they are now, with all their present limitations, then they aren't expecting exaltation, they're expecting something entirely worthless. God's entire purpose was stated quite succinctly in Moses 1:39 - "This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." This purpose cannot possibly entertain an exaltation where you are just one or two levels beyond where you are now. Expand your mind, O Man (and Woman). Stop dreaming in the dirt. Edited July 17, 2016 by Stargazer 2
Stargazer Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 On 7/15/2016 at 9:46 PM, JLHPROF said: AUB and Centennial Park practice neither child marriage nor forced marriage. As for treatment of women as property that is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Check the temple sealing ceremony and other temple areas and I'm sure you'd see signs of "ownership" whether intended or not. Up until I saw mention of Centennial Park and AUB in this thread, I had never even heard of either group. So, I looked them up, and was rather surprised. Centennial Park, which appears to be an offshoot of the FLDS, not only doesn't practice child marriage (minimum marriage age for a woman is 18), or forced marriage, but it's the women who decide who they're going to marry (surprise, surprise!). I guess in that instance there is forced marriage, but only that it is forced on the man. Unless he can reject a marriage offer. AUB is the Apostolic United Brethren. The surprise with them is that apparently they recognize the main LDS church as legitimate, but wayward. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 10 hours ago, Stargazer said: Up until I saw mention of Centennial Park and AUB in this thread, I had never even heard of either group. So, I looked them up, and was rather surprised. Centennial Park, which appears to be an offshoot of the FLDS, not only doesn't practice child marriage (minimum marriage age for a woman is 18), or forced marriage, but it's the women who decide who they're going to marry (surprise, surprise!). I guess in that instance there is forced marriage, but only that it is forced on the man. Unless he can reject a marriage offer. AUB is the Apostolic United Brethren. The surprise with them is that apparently they recognize the main LDS church as legitimate, but wayward. AUB also requires minimum marriage age of 18. At any rate, tarring all polygamists with the abusive, evil, FLDS brush is just plain inaccurate. Both AUB and Centennial Park claim (whatever other doctrinal issues they may have) to be living the gospel as it was lived and taught by Joseph in Nauvoo and Brigham Young/John Taylor in Utah. And the way they practice the gospel is a lot closer in form to the way it was lived by the Church in those days. They believe it is the Church that has changed the ordinances and the teachings and will need to be set in order according to scripture. The FLDS and Kingstons have little to no resemblance to the early Church and we have seen the fruits of the changes they have made to what Joseph restored. They are more likely to refer to the Church as evil and themselves as the new Church replacement. And surprise surprise they are the ones with incest, institutionalize abuse, arranged marriages, child marriages, etc... It's interesting to contrast the two styles of fundamentalist, and then interesting again to compare them to both the early Church and the Church today. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 18, 2016 Posted July 18, 2016 I think it's intriguing 10 out of the 16 latter day prophets are in polygamous sealings and the next 2 in line to be prophet, Russell M Nelson and Dallin H Oaks are both in polygamous sealings. It must not be so bad if so many prophets and potential prophets are set up for it in the life to come.
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) If polygamy is part of the eternities I wonder how many spouses we would have. 4? 20? 100? 2,000? There will be billions upon billions of women in the spirit world, so I could see amore exalted being with 1,000 wives. I'm willing to accept a million wives or an eternity of wives joining with me if polygamy is allowed in the Celestial Kingdom and if some of those million to infinity wives want to have a 2nd husband and it's approved by the Lord I'd be fine with that too. Edited July 19, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
Calm Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) There will be billions and billions of men too. In fact, there are slightly more males born than females, possibly 107 males to 100 females. Males also die at a higher rate before 8 than females do. So if anything, there will be extra men in the CK so get used to your wives having millions of husbands as that is thr only way those numbers could work. Edited July 19, 2016 by Calm 2
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Calm said: There will be billions and billions of men too. In fact, there are slightly more males born than females, possibly 107 males to 100 females. Males also die at a higher rate before 8 than females do. So if anything, there will be extra men in the CK so get used to your wives having millions of husbands as that is thr only way those numbers could work. Did you forget how to use the quote function on the site? I already said I'd be fine with my wives having other husbands, yet through history of the church practice it's usually polygyny that's practiced, but women are more righteous than men. You don't hear the term Daughters of Perdition. You only hear Sons of Perdition. I predict a lot more women than men will be exalted. Edited July 19, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 Calm, if you had the option would you live polyandry in the CK? It's only fair that women would get a chance too, and I'm sure there's no jealousy as an exalted being so I'm fine with having lots of wives and them having other husbands too.
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 I can't go into detail since it's my patriarchal blessing and I've been bad with saying what's in my blessing, but my blessing actually hints that I may live plural marriage after coming forth in the morning of the first resurrection at the end of my blessing. My patriarchal blessing is why I think about polygamy a lot because of what's in there and thoughts I'll be living it during the Millennium and in the Celestial Kingdom.
ttribe Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 12 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Did you forget how to use the quote function on the site? I already said I'd be fine with my wives having other husbands, yet through history of the church practice it's usually polygyny that's practiced, but women are more righteous than men. You don't hear the term Daughters of Perdition. You only hear Sons of Perdition. I predict a lot more women than men will be exalted. Spoken like a man who's never been married. I have no desire to share my wife with someone else; nor does my wife have any desire to share me with another woman. IMO, the entire system (as we currently understand it) is unworkable.
Calm Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Did you forget how to use the quote function on the site? I already said I'd be fine with my wives having other husbands I don't use the quote function if the previous quote is short and there is likely to be no intervening post. In the immediate posts you said 2nd husbands while you had millions of wives. Slight difference between 2 and millions. If women are excluded from everything in the scriptures that uses only the term Sons", we might as well accept a place as second class citizens in the CK right now. Edited July 19, 2016 by Calm
Calm Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 14 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Calm, if you had the option would you live polyandry in the CK? It's only fair that women would get a chance too, and I'm sure there's no jealousy as an exalted being so I'm fine with having lots of wives and them having other husbands too. Ask me when I am an eternal being and have a clue what that would mean.
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