Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 14 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: the burden of proof always lies with the person making the claim. You made bold claims about the practice being false. I understand you need to shift that burden, because you can't provide the evidence. As for me, I do not have a feeling one way or the other. My Salvation is not dependent on it. Like JLH, I believe it was more prevalent than reported. But, I don;t really care one way or the other. Agin, I understand your need the shift the burden. And I acknowledge your OPINION And I am not the one claiming D&C 132 is from God. JLHPROF is. You chimed in as well
rodheadlee Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 59 minutes ago, Teancum said: And I am not the one claiming D&C 132 is from God. JLHPROF is. You chimed in as well Are you sealed to your wife? If so that makes you a hypocrite. 2
UtahTexan Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Teancum said: And I am not the one claiming D&C 132 is from God. JLHPROF is. You chimed in as well No...you simply made bold claims you cannot support and continue to deflect and dodge. I get you dislike the practice. I get you are so unhappy that you feel the need to bash our beliefs.... But, it does not change the fact that you cannot prove that it did not come from God.
USU78 Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: Polygamy Day...what a coincidence...I was just about to send a bunch of women on missions.. (not really)..To this day seriously...I do not know what to think about Joseph and his polygamy. In my heart, I don't believe it came from God. This is not to say that Joseph didn't believe it of himself..but there is a convenience in being a prophet. My. I would think "convenience " was the last term one would use to describe polygyny as practiced by the XXTH Century saints
Teancum Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 14 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: No...you simply made bold claims you cannot support and continue to deflect and dodge. I get you dislike the practice. I get you are so unhappy that you feel the need to bash our beliefs.... But, it does not change the fact that you cannot prove that it did not come from God. Oh Gee CB. I am LDS. And still participate. If you, as an attorney, think the burden of proof is on me when it is the founder of the LDS Church and those who believe him are the ones making fantastical supernatural claims are on those who may question it...well what can I say. I would never refer someone to you for legal defense. If you are not bright enough to understand that one cannot falsify a negative and that anyone can claim anything as true and say prove me wrong then it is a waste of time to discuss this with you. 2
UtahTexan Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, Teancum said: Oh Gee CB. I am LDS. And still participate. If you, as an attorney, think the burden of proof is on me when it is the founder of the LDS Church and those who believe him are the ones making fantastical supernatural claims are on those who may question it...well what can I say. I would never refer someone to you for legal defense. If you are not bright enough to understand that one cannot falsify a negative and that anyone can claim anything as true and say prove me wrong then it is a waste of time to discuss this with you. Shrugs.....I am not surprised you make faulty and poor judgments of a person's profession based on a debate board. It suits you. Suffice to say I have one of the best trial records in Texas. I have trained young attorneys. And one way I win is to hold the burden of proof to those who make the bold claims. You fail, so you try to insult me. That, too, is not surprising
Teancum Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 9 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Shrugs.....I am not surprised you make faulty and poor judgments of a person's profession based on a debate board. It suits you. Suffice to say I have one of the best trial records in Texas. I have trained young attorneys. And one way I win is to hold the burden of proof to those who make the bold claims. You fail, so you try to insult me. That, too, is not surprising Yawn...... 1
Teancum Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: According to Wikipedia's "On This Day" feature box: July 12, 1843 – Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, proclaimed a revelation recommending polygamy. Funny thing to have on the front page sidebar. From Wikipedia: On July 12, 1843, Joseph Smith is said to have received a revelation that is much more widely accepted by historians. The revelation was supposedly dictated by Smith to his scribe William Clayton, and was shared with Smith's wife Emma later that day. Clayton wrote in his journal: Wednesday 12th This A.M, I wrote a Revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of the priesthood, showing the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives & concubines &c. After it was wrote Prests. Joseph & Hyrum presented it and read it to [Emma] who said she did not believe a word of it and appeared very rebellious. [Joseph]...appears much troubled about [Emma.] So, Happy polygamy day everyone! So back to your OP. It is incorrect to attribute this date to the birth of Mormon plural marriage. Even the intro to D&C 132 states this doctrine may have been introduced as early as 1831 (likely a back read into history in order to excuse the Fanny Alger fiasco). But Joseph was marrying women behinds Emma's back well before this date.
Teancum Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 47 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Are you sealed to your wife? If so that makes you a hypocrite. Oh does it? How so?
UtahTexan Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 7 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yawn...... lol...I told my wife you would do that next.....it is what you do when you lose but hate to admit it.
Teancum Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: lol...I told my wife you would do that next.....it is what you do when you lose but hate to admit it. 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: lol...I told my wife you would do that next.....it is what you do when you lose but hate to admit it. If it makes you feel good to claim a win when you offer nothing then more power to you. I am amazed that you think the burden of proof is not one the ones making the claim of supernatural claims. Do yo accept Muhammed as a prophet? If I claim Eru Iluvatar is God and that Tolkein was his prophet would the burden of proof be on me to provide evidence of such or ypu to prove my fantastical claim wrong?
UtahTexan Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 14 minutes ago, Teancum said: If it makes you feel good to claim a win when you offer nothing then more power to you. I am amazed that you think the burden of proof is not one the ones making the claim of supernatural claims. Do yo accept Muhammed as a prophet? If I claim Eru Iluvatar is God and that Tolkein was his prophet would the burden of proof be on me to provide evidence of such or ypu to prove my fantastical claim wrong? If I file a claim, the burden of proof exists with me. If I file a Motion making a claim, the burden at the hearing exists with me. If you make a claim, the burden exits with you So, when you make your bold claims, I ask for your proof. You never have any...but then, always, try to shift the burden. Shrugs......it is a common strategy when the person who makes the claim can't support it. So, yes, it feels good Both posters removed.
strappinglad Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Teancum said: I prayed about plural marriage. God told me it was false. Which God? The Muslims are sure that polygamy was approved by Allah. Many Africans follow polygamy. Warren Jeff's bunch are positive that their God has pronounced the practice Holy. The God of this world will also opine when asked. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2016 Author Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) Never mind...thanks Mods. Edited July 13, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2016 Author Posted July 13, 2016 29 minutes ago, Teancum said: So back to your OP. It is incorrect to attribute this date to the birth of Mormon plural marriage. Even the intro to D&C 132 states this doctrine may have been introduced as early as 1831 (likely a back read into history in order to excuse the Fanny Alger fiasco). But Joseph was marrying women behinds Emma's back well before this date. This date is not the birth of plural marriage (how can an eternal law have a birth). It is the anniversary of the first recorded writing of what today we call D&C 132. Part of the revelation and the principles had been known for many years and Joseph was already living the law. But today 170 years ago D&C 132 was written down and eternal marriage and plural marriage and the doctrines behind them were explained. That is worth celebrating I think.
Popular Post strappinglad Posted July 13, 2016 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2016 I really don't get the fuss over polygamy. A man takes 2 or more wives and spends his time supporting all of them and raising children and supporting all of them and this is considered a really BAD situation. Yet, today we fully accept serial monogamy. Single mothers are applauded and lauded for their state even as studies show serious disadvantage to no father in the home. Sexual activity outside of marriage is accepted and even encouraged by society. The nuclear family is slowly(?) disappearing and all kinds of ' families ' are promoted and still polygamy is the WORST possible unit. Oh , the villainy of it all ! 5
Tacenda Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 I don't have anything bad to say for those women that need a husband in the hereafter and there aren't enough men around. Just as we were told happened in the early church, with polygamy it was because there were women that were widowed etc. I have a friend that has never married, she's holding hope for a chance in the hereafter, if that means a polygamous marriage and it's the only way, I'm glad for it. I know JL, don't have a heart attack. 1
ttribe Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Lovely. I'm sure there are a number of runaway girls from Colorado City (aka Short Creek) who would find it utterly horrifying to engage in "celebration" of the institution of polygamy. Way to go, JLH.
Tacenda Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 12 minutes ago, ttribe said: Lovely. I'm sure there are a number of runaway girls from Colorado City (aka Short Creek) who would find it utterly horrifying to engage in "celebration" of the institution of polygamy. Way to go, JLH. Yes, that is the evil way for sure. But I'm leaving some room for it not to be so evil in other situations. I tend to blame JS for having started polygamy back up in the US, but I can't blame him for those that are suffering at the hands of sickening people now. Although, I think JS was thoroughly wrong on putting exaltation on shoulders of some women to accept it so their family and she would live with God or be exalted. That is for the Lord to do. Unless that is false anti stuff, but pretty sure it's on the books.
ttribe Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 8 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Yes, that is the evil way for sure. But I'm leaving some room for it not to be so evil in other situations. I tend to blame JS for having started polygamy back up in the US, but I can't blame him for those that are suffering at the hands of sickening people now. Although, I think JS was thoroughly wrong on putting exaltation on shoulders of some women to accept it so their family and she would live with God or be exalted. That is for the Lord to do. Unless that is false anti stuff, but pretty sure it's on the books. Both its benefits and its drawbacks over the years are certainly open for debate, but the way it is practiced by the FLDS and certain other offshoots is not only criminal but completely disgusting. Whether we like it our not, they are part of the legacy of our practice of polygamy in the history of the Church. We can't celebrate the benefits of polygamy while simultaneously ignoring how this has devolved into the rape of young girls and the treatment of women as property of their husbands.
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2016 Author Posted July 13, 2016 13 minutes ago, ttribe said: Both its benefits and its drawbacks over the years are certainly open for debate, but the way it is practiced by the FLDS and certain other offshoots is not only criminal but completely disgusting. Whether we like it our not, they are part of the legacy of our practice of polygamy in the history of the Church. We can't celebrate the benefits of polygamy while simultaneously ignoring how this has devolved into the rape of young girls and the treatment of women as property of their husbands. Just because one group of people turns something good into pure evil doesn't mean we cannot celebrate the good. That's silly. That's like swearing off Christianity because of the inquisition and the crusades.
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I believe it is a law of the eternities and is how God's and Christ's families are organized. I also believe man has his agency to choose how much or how little they want to be like God. For now, it is all in the past. When this earth ends its mortal journey and we and it are resurrected, and only eternity remains, a lot will be very different from what mankind wants. Why do you believe so strongly in polygamy and that it is the order of marriage in the eternities, including God and Jesus families?
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2016 Author Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Why do you believe so strongly in polygamy and that it is the order of marriage in the eternities, including God and Jesus families? Reasonable extrapolation based on scripture and prophetic teaching. And answer to prayer. Edited July 13, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Reasonable extrapolation based on scripture and prophetic teaching. And answer to prayer. But if it's important and of God why isn't it practiced by the church today?
ttribe Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Just because one group of people turns something good into pure evil doesn't mean we cannot celebrate the good. That's silly. That's like swearing off Christianity because of the inquisition and the crusades. No, it isn't like "swearing off Christianity..." It's recognizing that this is a legacy we own, whether we like it or not. The current practices are inseparable from the very event you are "celebrating." Moreover, I don't concede there is anything "good" to celebrate. You want to lie to yourself and say you can separate the two, be my guest, but I certainly can't. I can't think of a single instance of the practice of polygamy that didn't eventually devolve into the types of activities we see today in Short Creek. If plural marriage ever was a commandment from God, we are incapable of living the principle in this life; it's too easily turned to abuse of the worst kind. 1
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