JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 According to Wikipedia's "On This Day" feature box: July 12, 1843 – Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, proclaimed a revelation recommending polygamy. Funny thing to have on the front page sidebar. From Wikipedia: On July 12, 1843, Joseph Smith is said to have received a revelation that is much more widely accepted by historians. The revelation was supposedly dictated by Smith to his scribe William Clayton, and was shared with Smith's wife Emma later that day. Clayton wrote in his journal: Wednesday 12th This A.M, I wrote a Revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of the priesthood, showing the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives & concubines &c. After it was wrote Prests. Joseph & Hyrum presented it and read it to [Emma] who said she did not believe a word of it and appeared very rebellious. [Joseph]...appears much troubled about [Emma.] So, Happy polygamy day everyone! 1
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 One of the clear evidences that Joseph missed the mark and if he ever was a prophet he certainly was not in his claimed plural marriage dogma 1
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: According to Wikipedia's "On This Day" feature box: July 12, 1843 – Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, proclaimed a revelation recommending polygamy. Funny thing to have on the front page sidebar. From Wikipedia: On July 12, 1843, Joseph Smith is said to have received a revelation that is much more widely accepted by historians. The revelation was supposedly dictated by Smith to his scribe William Clayton, and was shared with Smith's wife Emma later that day. Clayton wrote in his journal: Wednesday 12th This A.M, I wrote a Revelation consisting of 10 pages on the order of the priesthood, showing the designs in Moses, Abraham, David and Solomon having many wives & concubines &c. After it was wrote Prests. Joseph & Hyrum presented it and read it to [Emma] who said she did not believe a word of it and appeared very rebellious. [Joseph]...appears much troubled about [Emma.] So, Happy polygamy day everyone! The day all hell broke loose. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The day all hell broke loose. Or all heaven...depending on your perspective. 2
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Teancum said: One of the clear evidences that Joseph missed the mark and if he ever was a prophet he certainly was not in his claimed plural marriage dogma You are welcome to have that opinion. Many have agreed with you for the past 170 years. Many don't, myself included. Aren't opinions fun? Edited July 12, 2016 by JLHPROF 4
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You are welcome to have that opinion. Many have agreed with you for the past 170 years. Many don't, myself included. Aren't opinions fun? Sure. My testimony that plural marriage of a false and evil practice is as good as yours that it isn't. 2
UtahTexan Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 1 minute ago, Teancum said: Sure. My testimony that plural marriage of a false and evil practice is as good as yours that it isn't. ok...please prove, since you are so sure, that God did NOT tell Joseph to institute polygamy. 1
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: ok...please prove, since you are so sure, that God did NOT tell Joseph to institute polygamy. The burden of proof that God commanded this is on you and those who make the supernatural claims of revelation. You make the claim. Prove it. 1
UtahTexan Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) I have made no such claim. Yet, on THIS thread, YOU did. Again, you know you lost, so you shifted the burden. So, you were predictable. This is fun Edited July 12, 2016 by CountryBoy
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: I have made no such claim. Yet, on THIS thread, YOU did. Again, the losing argument shifts the burden. So, you were predictable and lose again. This is fun I know you need to say this to maintain your testimony. Are you really a lawyer? 2
UtahTexan Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Teancum said: I know you need to say this to maintain your testimony. Are you really a lawyer? lol.....I expected that, too. When you lose the argument, you make attacks. Maintain my testimony? lol....I do not need this for that Edited July 12, 2016 by CountryBoy
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, Teancum said: I know you need to say this to maintain your testimony. Are you really a lawyer? 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: lol.....I expected that, too. When you lose the argument, you make attacks. Maintain my testimony? lol....I do not need this for that Please take personal squabbles off my thread unless you want to discuss the topic at hand using actual fact. 1
UtahTexan Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Please take personal squabbles off my thread unless you want to discuss the topic at hand using actual fact. I was trying. Sorry. I simply asked for someone who bashed it to prove God did not actually give it. That was on topic.
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 So if you want some reasons why it is clear time that Jospehs plural marriage doctrine is bogus just study the history. It is full of lies, secrecy, deceit and even secret combinations that the Book of Mormon condemns. No Mormon would accept such things as from God if it wasn't Joseph Smith and Mormonism that was at stake. So there you have it. If you claim some dogma is revealed from God the burden is on those claiming as such to provide convincing evidence it is really from God. I am sure you will dodge this. It's an impossible task. 1
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: I was trying. Sorry. I simply asked for someone who bashed it to prove God did not actually give it. That was on topic. I prayed about plural marriage. God told me it was false. 1
Tacenda Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: I was trying. Sorry. I simply asked for someone who bashed it to prove God did not actually give it. That was on topic. There isn't much proof that God did, except for possibly the Levirate's, but that is definitely suspect, IMO.
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Please take personal squabbles off my thread unless you want to discuss the topic at hand using actual fact. The facts the I briefly summarized demonstrate why I think this is false.
UtahTexan Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 I see. You do not have the proof I requested, and the best you can do is vague references to history. Thank you. I suspected as much. It boils down to your opinion and that is it.
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: I see. You do not have the proof I requested, and the best you can do is vague references to history. Thank you. I suspected as much. It boils down to your opinion and that is it. Like I said the burden of proof is on you not me. I don't have time here to outline the history behind this but my guess is you know it. I studied it, pondered it, prayed about it and concluded it was false. So prove me wrong. Fantastical claims require evidence. Anyone can claim anything as from God. Do you simply accept it as such?
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 Personally, I think there is far more historical evidence that polygamy was the norm in a large number of societies, including ones God called "chosen" up until after the death of Christ. So spiritual testimonies etc aside, I think that monogamy as the be all and end all is actually the oddity. Monogamy is the norm in "western European societies" and has become the worldwide norm as so many western European traditions have. Whether God had anything to do with these cultural shifts or the choice between monogamy and polygamy prior to Joseph in 1843 or Wilford in 1890 is the real question. 1
UtahTexan Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Teancum said: Like I said the burden of proof is on you not me. I don't have time here to outline the history behind this but my guess is you know it. I studied it, pondered it, prayed about it and concluded it was false. So prove me wrong. Fantastical claims require evidence. Anyone can claim anything as from God. Do you simply accept it as such? the burden of proof always lies with the person making the claim. You made bold claims about the practice being false. I understand you need to shift that burden, because you can't provide the evidence. As for me, I do not have a feeling one way or the other. My Salvation is not dependent on it. Like JLH, I believe it was more prevalent than reported. But, I don;t really care one way or the other. Agin, I understand your need the shift the burden. And I acknowledge your OPINION Edited July 12, 2016 by CountryBoy
Jeanne Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 Polygamy Day...what a coincidence...I was just about to send a bunch of women on missions.. (not really)..To this day seriously...I do not know what to think about Joseph and his polygamy. In my heart, I don't believe it came from God. This is not to say that Joseph didn't believe it of himself..but there is a convenience in being a prophet.
Teancum Posted July 12, 2016 Posted July 12, 2016 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Personally, I think there is far more historical evidence that polygamy was the norm in a large number of societies, including ones God called "chosen" up until after the death of Christ. So spiritual testimonies etc aside, I think that monogamy as the be all and end all is actually the oddity. Monogamy is the norm in "western European societies" and has become the worldwide norm as so many western European traditions have. Whether God had anything to do with these cultural shifts or the choice between monogamy and polygamy prior to Joseph in 1843 or Wilford in 1890 is the real question. All sorts of atrocities were the norm for much of him and history and much still is. Yet most of humanity has moved beyond such things. Having many wives may have been the norm when women were viewed as chattel and property. By the mid 19th century much of civilized society had moved beyond that. Too bad Joseph Smith tried to bring it back. Thankfully it did not survive long. Looks like the US government was more powerful than the Mormon God who allegedly gave this new and everlasting covenant of Celestial marriage. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, Teancum said: Looks like the US government was more powerful than the Mormon God who allegedly gave this new and everlasting covenant of Celestial marriage. Nah. Looks like God gave man his agency to vote it away when scared of the US Govt. God always honors agency. At least for now. Edited July 12, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2016 Author Posted July 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Polygamy Day...what a coincidence...I was just about to send a bunch of women on missions.. (not really)..To this day seriously...I do not know what to think about Joseph and his polygamy. In my heart, I don't believe it came from God. This is not to say that Joseph didn't believe it of himself..but there is a convenience in being a prophet. I believe it is a law of the eternities and is how God's and Christ's families are organized. I also believe man has his agency to choose how much or how little they want to be like God. For now, it is all in the past. When this earth ends its mortal journey and we and it are resurrected, and only eternity remains, a lot will be very different from what mankind wants. 2
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