Emphasis on Christ - what does that mean to you?

[Avatar4321]

So we need to mention Jesus by name to be talking of Him? I fail to see how speaking about some aspect of His Word emphasizes Him any less.

[Rain]

10 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

So we need to mention Jesus by name to be talking of Him? I fail to see how speaking about some aspect of His Word emphasizes Him any less.

I'm not going to debate this.  The question was asked.  I answered.

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I'm not sure if it's deliberate propaganda or they just have not read the Book of Mormon. It could be both. I've found that reading the Book of Mormon is the best cure for anyone foolish enough to claim we aren't Christ centric.

Then we should have more of this in Sac. Mtg.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/27/2016 at 11:24 AM, JLHPROF said:

For those that feel we don't focus on Christ enough, what should things look like to improve?  Should we look more like an evangelical religion?
Just curious.
 

Well one thing is for sure...You cannot focus on someone that will not respond you forever.......That's what's happening....

[James Tunney]

18 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Well one thing is for sure...You cannot focus on someone that will not respond you forever.......That's what's happening....

Yeah. I think that's behind the change to the Q12 being witnesses of the "name" of christ and not the actual being.

[Avatar4321]

48 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm not going to debate this.  The question was asked.  I answered.

I never asked you to.

[rongo]

My experience is that LDS attempts to hyper-emphasize Christ are the result of attacks beginning in the 1980s that we aren't Christian. If anything, all the wards I have been in go way too far to make sure that Christ and the atonement are the focus of every talk and lesson. This is a good thing, of course, but it comes at the expense of also emphasizing the Restoration, or God the Father for that matter. Many active LDS today (active in that they attend church and hold callings) don't really think much about the Restoration, and if you compare the ratio of "Christ-centered" to "Restoration-centered" talks, it's not even close, in my experience.

What's interesting about the emphasis on a "personal relationship with Christ" is that this is brokered through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is actually the member of the Godhead that we have the most frequent and direct contact and experience with, and that gets lost in the zeal to focus on our relationship with Christ. 

In my prayers, I feel close to Heavenly Father more so than Christ. He is my intercessor, and Savior and Redeemer, and I feel and have felt the power and reality of the Atonement in my life. But, I pray to my Heavenly Father in the name of Christ, and I feel like my personal relationship is with Him. And I experience the communication through the Holy Ghost.

 

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

In my prayers, I feel close to Heavenly Father more so than Christ. He is my intercessor, and Savior and Redeemer, and I feel and have felt the power and reality of the Atonement in my life. But, I pray to my Heavenly Father in the name of Christ, and I feel like my personal relationship is with Him. And I experience the communication through the Holy Ghost.

 

I'm so glad you said that.  I've mentioned that to others before and those that replied back to me just didn't get it.  They felt they are one in purpose so I shouldn't feel closer to any one of them, but the same for all. You are the first I have heard of that felt differently.

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm so glad you said that.  I've mentioned that to others before and those that replied back to me just didn't get it.  They felt they are one in purpose so I shouldn't feel closer to any one of them, but the same for all. You are the first I have heard of that felt differently.

Thanks, Rain! 

I do feel that increasing emphasis on Christ has led to a de-emphasis on the Father and the Holy Ghost. And, as I said, I feel that this is largely a reaction to criticism, like dancing while being pistol-whipped. 

I wish people felt free to bear *their* testimony (as Brigham Young called it, "telling us what kind of Mormonism is in you"), and not be so self-conscious about making sure that their talk/testimony/lesson is always "Christ-centered."

[Rain]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Thanks, Rain! 

I do feel that increasing emphasis on Christ has led to a de-emphasis on the Father and the Holy Ghost. And, as I said, I feel that this is largely a reaction to criticism, like dancing while being pistol-whipped. 

I wish people felt free to bear *their* testimony (as Brigham Young called it, "telling us what kind of Mormonism is in you"), and not be so self-conscious about making sure that their talk/testimony/lesson is always "Christ-centered."

I have no problem with emphasizing Father and the Spirit as well. It's why I said I would like to hear of one of the "Godhead" mentioned in talks.

I'm ok with Christ not being mentioned in every testimony. I do think something needed to change (we OFTEN heard testimonies of things like President and Sister Hinckley being in a bathing suit and bikini on a beach in heaven, and how the "Brethren" think the testimony giver is so humble, as well as being chewed out by a missionary for being the only ward in our stake who didn't  have an investigator), but I can see how the emphasis would discourage some from bearing their testimonies.

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, James Tunney said:

Yeah. I think that's behind the change to the Q12 being witnesses of the "name" of christ and not the actual being.

Oh. Apparently some of them didn't get that memo.

Quote

Elder Christofferson: Under the glance of His all-seeing eye, I stand myself as a witness that Jesus of Nazareth is the resurrected Redeemer, and I testify of all that follows from the fact of His Resurrection. May you receive the conviction and comfort of that same witness. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Elder Hales: 

I testify that our Savior lives. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, and He will come again on this earth to reign. He is Jesus Christ, the Holy One of Israel, “full of grace, and mercy, and truth. … It is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.”20 He is the literal Son of God, who rose from the dead on the third day, bringing the reality of resurrection to all who will come to earth. I also testify that God our Eternal Father lives and loves each of us, for we are His children. So great is His love that He sent His Only Begotten Son into the world “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”21

As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I testify of the truth of what is in the scriptures and what has been told to me and can be told to you by the Holy Spirit. It will be revealed according to your obedience and desires. The Savior taught us during His mortal ministry this great truth that applies to all of us: “Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.”22 I testify that I do know these things, and I know with surety that these things which I have spoken of are true. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/gaining-a-testimony-of-god-the-father-his-son-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Elder Renlund: 

With all my heart I want to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.7 I love Him. I adore Him. I witness of His living reality. I witness that He is the Anointed One, the Messiah. I am a witness of His incomparable mercy, compassion, and love. I add my testimony to that of the Apostles who, in the year 2000, stated “that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. … He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world.”8

I testify that on a day in 1820 in a grove in upstate New York, the risen Lord appeared, along with God, our Heavenly Father, to the Prophet Joseph Smith, just as Joseph Smith said They did. Priesthood keys are on earth today to enable saving and exalting ordinances. I know it. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/through-gods-eyes?lang=eng

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On June 27, 2016 at 9:24 AM, JLHPROF said:

We've had repeated discussions on this board about mention of Christ in Sacrament meetings, about focus on Christ at Christmas, etc.For those that feel we don't focus on Christ enough, what should things look like to improve?  Should we look more like an evangelical religion?

Something must have changed over the years...

Quote

 

 D&C 107:2 Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest.

 3 Before his day it was called the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.

 4 But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church, in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek Priesthood.

 

 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

My experience is that LDS attempts to hyper-emphasize Christ are the result of attacks beginning in the 1980s that we aren't Christian. If anything, all the wards I have been in go way too far to make sure that Christ and the atonement are the focus of every talk and lesson. This is a good thing, of course, but it comes at the expense of also emphasizing the Restoration, or God the Father for that matter. Many active LDS today (active in that they attend church and hold callings) don't really think much about the Restoration, and if you compare the ratio of "Christ-centered" to "Restoration-centered" talks, it's not even close, in my experience.

What's interesting about the emphasis on a "personal relationship with Christ" is that this is brokered through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is actually the member of the Godhead that we have the most frequent and direct contact and experience with, and that gets lost in the zeal to focus on our relationship with Christ. 

In my prayers, I feel close to Heavenly Father more so than Christ. He is my intercessor, and Savior and Redeemer, and I feel and have felt the power and reality of the Atonement in my life. But, I pray to my Heavenly Father in the name of Christ, and I feel like my personal relationship is with Him. And I experience the communication through the Holy Ghost.

 

So Jesus isn't the God of this world? I've heard it said that he is. I would think that alone could give you pause in how you think of him. And there are scriptures that we are to treat them the same, God the Father and our Saviour. Even pray to both. 

[Atheist Mormon]

10 hours ago, James Tunney said:

Yeah. I think that's behind the change to the Q12 being witnesses of the "name" of christ and not the actual being.

Don't get it. Is there an actual one?

[James Tunney]

48 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Don't get it. Is there an actual one?

I think that's debatable. However, if there was one, he has surely been mythologized over the years. Maybe testifying of his name covers this concept? They don't know what he was like - was he an amalgam of various preachers or a zealot or pure myth? In reality, the Q12 and FP define what this person or myth is today since he remains hidden. Maybe that's why they testify of his name instead of an actual person?

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, James Tunney said:

I think that's debatable. However, if there was one, he has surely been mythologized over the years. Maybe testifying of his name covers this concept? They don't know what he was like - was he an amalgam of various preachers or a zealot or pure myth? In reality, the Q12 and FP define what this person or myth is today since he remains hidden. Maybe that's why they testify of his name instead of an actual person?

If you are going to participate you should try reading the responses.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, James Tunney said:

I think that's debatable. However, if there was one, he has surely been mythologized over the years. Maybe testifying of his name covers this concept? They don't know what he was like - was he an amalgam of various preachers or a zealot or pure myth? In reality, the Q12 and FP define what this person or myth is today since he remains hidden. Maybe that's why they testify of his name instead of an actual person?

Oh. Apparently some of them didn't get that memo.

Quote

Elder Christofferson: Under the glance of His all-seeing eye, I stand myself as a witness that Jesus of Nazareth is the resurrected Redeemer, and I testify of all that follows from the fact of His Resurrection. May you receive the conviction and comfort of that same witness. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Elder Hales: 

I testify that our Savior lives. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, and He will come again on this earth to reign. He is Jesus Christ, the Holy One of Israel, “full of grace, and mercy, and truth. … It is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.”20 He is the literal Son of God, who rose from the dead on the third day, bringing the reality of resurrection to all who will come to earth. I also testify that God our Eternal Father lives and loves each of us, for we are His children. So great is His love that He sent His Only Begotten Son into the world “that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”21

As an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I testify of the truth of what is in the scriptures and what has been told to me and can be told to you by the Holy Spirit. It will be revealed according to your obedience and desires. The Savior taught us during His mortal ministry this great truth that applies to all of us: “Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.”22 I testify that I do know these things, and I know with surety that these things which I have spoken of are true. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/gaining-a-testimony-of-god-the-father-his-son-jesus-christ-and-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Elder Renlund: 

With all my heart I want to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.7 I love Him. I adore Him. I witness of His living reality. I witness that He is the Anointed One, the Messiah. I am a witness of His incomparable mercy, compassion, and love. I add my testimony to that of the Apostles who, in the year 2000, stated “that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. … He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world.”8

I testify that on a day in 1820 in a grove in upstate New York, the risen Lord appeared, along with God, our Heavenly Father, to the Prophet Joseph Smith, just as Joseph Smith said They did. Priesthood keys are on earth today to enable saving and exalting ordinances. I know it. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/through-gods-eyes?lang=eng

ENSIGN APRIL 2000 THE LIVING CHRIST: THE TESTIMONY OF THE APOSTLES, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.

He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.

He rose from the grave to “become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His “other sheep” (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Eph. 1:10).

Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3–4).

Of Him the Prophet also declared: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24). We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—“built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20).

We testify that He will someday return to earth. “And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together” (Isa. 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.

We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[halconero]

It's an interesting matter to be sure. It largely depends on what we mean when we talk about worship.

The North American religious experience is largely filtered through the neo-Protestant, individualized, liberal worldview of the individual and their relationship to God. Such is not the case around the world nor historically. In places like Russia and in Eastern Orthodoxy, it is the country as an entity, their leadership (both political and ecclesiastical), and the communal whole and how they act in accordance with God that matters more. The individual's relationship pales in comparison to these. 

Also, what does it mean to worship? More singing of praises unto God? Directly reading the scriptures? Obeying the commandments? The participation in ritual? All of these are right, but not all of them are universal. They are specific to time and place.

For the American Evangelical it's probably a mix of the first two. For the 16th century monk, it's probably the 2nd. For the believing Gentile in the Early Church probably a mix of the last two.

The 15 minutes we spend singing about the sacrifice of Christ, eating of his broken body and blood, and taking upon ourselves his Atonement is a ritual focus on Christ. But perhaps for those in our modern North American context, that's not enough.

I'm not criticizing any one perspective, but more than anything perhaps I'm pointing out the difficulty of correlating and universalizing any one particular manner of worship. The difficulty is having church meetings that are both consistent, yet with leeway to adapt to local members circumstances and worldviews on worship.

[boblloyd91]

I think the main thing is we do it in such a way that causes us to truly feel close to Him and not because we're trying to soothe the criticisms of Evangelical critics.

[salgare]

I don't even remember who it was, surely someone along the lines of Mercy and Grace (old poster here). that stopped me in my tracks.  After telling my story of woe about my quest for MY calling and election, MY progression in the Oath and Covenant, MY gaining a personal relationship with Christ, MY becoming worthy of Exaltation.  The person patiently listened to the whole of my failures and made one simple statement, something to the effect of:  In all of that story, I did not once here you mention charity, mercy or grace?

I myself never understood the claims of "Smithmas", lack of Christ taught in the Church etc.  That was not my experience either.  What MY failure was, was ME and the elitist, selfish, self righteous, self centered view of the works I needed to achieve and do to gain that personal relationship etc.  My old friend Hyrum Andrus used to profess all the time "The only thing Mormons need to repent of is there own self righteousness".  Of course every time he told me that, I shook my head in agreement, that it was so true of many I knew.  I never realized he was speaking directly to me, trying to put a kind spin on it.

The OP's question is really no different than the old accusations of the Church not being real Christians.  Do you remember us being proud of being a "peculiar people"?  The beauty of the Mormon Theology is the peculiarity, and yet its a double edged sword as issues ranging from percussion complexes to the age old issues of "Works over Grace" which can so easily lead weak ones like ME into all the downfalls requiring forgiveness for MY self righteousness.  

There is some fine line, something one can not put their finger on (as shown in this thread) as to why some feel the Church is not Christian enough for them.  Then their are others, like the OP, who desire for the days of peculiarity to increase, not be forgotten, for the literal power of God to still be there.  But as the Church realized with a history of the 20th centuries Fundamentalism movements stemming from the original split away from polygamy along with a resurgence in the 1980's of groups seeing a lack in leaderships peculiarities compared to the world desired to have that back in their lives.  A dangerous slippy slope of the ME syndrome, seeking for signs, miracles, thinning of veils, real power in the priesthood, etc.

I have no suggestions on how it could be done.  I assume its not possible, at least not likely to solve the real issue, which imo is a need to be peculiarity centered (screw what the world thinks of us, and find the power that is literally and truly there), and yet somehow remain cemented to a charity, mercy and grace core that is totally focused on YOU and somehow protects ME from falling into the slippy sloop and the need to repent of elitism and self righteousness.

Edited June 29, 2016 by salgare

[JLHPROF]

57 minutes ago, salgare said:

Do you remember us being proud of being a "peculiar people"?  The beauty of the Mormon Theology is the peculiarity

There is some fine line, something one can not put their finger on (as shown in this thread) as to why some feel the Church is not Christian enough for them.  Then their are others, like the OP, who desire for the days of peculiarity to increase, not be forgotten, for the literal power of God to still be there. 

You really do get me don't you. 

Quote

I assume its not possible, at least not likely to solve the real issue, which imo is a need to be peculiarity centered (screw what the world thinks of us, and find the power that is literally and truly there), and yet somehow remain cemented to a charity, mercy and grace core that is totally focused on YOU and somehow protects ME from falling into the slippy sloop and the need to repent of elitism and self righteousness.

 

 

I try to hold on to my faith that both are possible.
Every time we lose a "peculiarity" as a Church I feel like we are rejecting some eternal truth revealed from God himself.
And yet every time we don't focus on charity, mercy, and grace (aka, the first principles of Christianity) we get headed in the wrong direction.

A balance has to be possible.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

I don't even remember who it was, surely someone along the lines of Mercy and Grace (old poster here). that stopped me in my tracks.  After telling my story of woe about my quest for MY calling and election, MY progression in the Oath and Covenant, MY gaining a personal relationship with Christ, MY becoming worthy of Exaltation.  The person patiently listened to the whole of my failures and made one simple statement, something to the effect of:  In all of that story, I did not once here you mention charity, mercy or grace?

I myself never understood the claims of "Smithmas", lack of Christ taught in the Church etc.  That was not my experience either.  What MY failure was, was ME and the elitist, selfish, self righteous, self centered view of the works I needed to achieve and do to gain that personal relationship etc.  My old friend Hyrum Andrus used to profess all the time "The only thing Mormons need to repent of is there own self righteousness".  Of course every time he told me that, I shook my head in agreement, that it was so true of many I knew.  I never realized he was speaking directly to me, trying to put a kind spin on it.

The OP's question is really no different than the old accusations of the Church not being real Christians.  Do you remember us being proud of being a "peculiar people"?  The beauty of the Mormon Theology is the peculiarity, and yet its a double edged sword as issues ranging from percussion complexes to the age old issues of "Works over Grace" which can so easily lead weak ones like ME into all the downfalls requiring forgiveness for MY self righteousness.  

There is some fine line, something one can not put their finger on (as shown in this thread) as to why some feel the Church is not Christian enough for them.  Then their are others, like the OP, who desire for the days of peculiarity to increase, not be forgotten, for the literal power of God to still be there.  But as the Church realized with a history of the 20th centuries Fundamentalism movements stemming from the original split away from polygamy along with a resurgence in the 1980's of groups seeing a lack in leaderships peculiarities compared to the world desired to have that back in their lives.  A dangerous slippy slope of the ME syndrome, seeking for signs, miracles, thinning of veils, real power in the priesthood, etc.

I have no suggestions on how it could be done.  I assume its not possible, at least not likely to solve the real issue, which imo is a need to be peculiarity centered (screw what the world thinks of us, and find the power that is literally and truly there), and yet somehow remain cemented to a charity, mercy and grace core that is totally focused on YOU and somehow protects ME from falling into the slippy sloop and the need to repent of elitism and self righteousness.

 

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You really do get me don't you. 

I try to hold on to my faith that both are possible.
Every time we lose a "peculiarity" as a Church I feel like we are rejecting some eternal truth revealed from God himself.
And yet every time we don't focus on charity, mercy, and grace (aka, the first principles of Christianity) we get headed in the wrong direction.

A balance has to be possible.

If you're into podcasts the following ones are wonderful. 

http://www.mormonmatters.org/2016/05/24/332-mercy/

http://www.mormonmatters.org/2016/05/04/330-mormonisms-jesus/

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Every time we lose a "peculiarity" as a Church I feel like we are rejecting some eternal truth revealed from God himself.

And yet every time we don't focus on charity, mercy, and grace (aka, the first principles of Christianity) we get headed in the wrong direction.

A balance has to be possible.

What type of balance do you have in mind?

We get from God and then we try to tell others about what God has given to us?

What else do you think we can do to achieve some kind of balance ?

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What type of balance do you have in mind?

We get from God and then we try to tell others about what God has given to us?

What else do you think we can do to achieve some kind of balance ?

The balance between our focus on the unique doctrines and practices of Mormonism and our adherence and centralizing of Christ and the First Principles.

I don't believe either alone will get us where we want to go.

[Atheist Mormon]

 

Elder Hales

“Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.”2

 

Well.......I don't have to be a prophet or anything to qualify myself to know BUT this promise DOES NOT WORK ,   This is the most bitter part of all promises that failed faithful masses time after time.....Now that I'm outside looking in, it doesn't make me satisfied or gratified to know this reality...I have lots of empathy for each individual hangs on to this EMPTY  promise.