theplains Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 On 01/07/2016 at 2:04 PM, Storm Rider said: Jim, I am not sure I follow the logic of your last sentence. It seems a false dichotomy. Those mortals that become children of the devil are only those that are sons of perdition - not a lot of folk. Can you explain what you mean? Cheers, Mike Hello Mike, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God ... The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." There are some who are children of God and others who are the children of the devil (those not led by the Holy Spirit, but by the devil). The children of God are those who are the joint-heirs of Christ. Joseph taught that the joint-heirs are the gods. Thanks, Jim
theplains Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 On 01/07/2016 at 5:40 PM, JLHPROF said: Am I missing the difference here? Bible - God's children are joint-heirs with Christ. Check. LDS - God's children become deities (yes, I know Ahab, we already are) when they receive their exaltation. Check. According to Romans chapter 8, only the children of God are considered the joint-heirs. Assuming Joseph was correct in his teaching that joint-heirs means exaltation, the children of the devil would be classified as those who don't become gods (i.e. the telestials and terrestrials). Jim
Storm Rider Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 24 minutes ago, theplains said: Hello Mike, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God ... The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." There are some who are children of God and others who are the children of the devil (those not led by the Holy Spirit, but by the devil). The children of God are those who are the joint-heirs of Christ. Joseph taught that the joint-heirs are the gods. Thanks, Jim In the context of the quote you provided, how many follow after/led by the Devil? I see this group as being very, very small. All of humanity have the Light of Christ in them. I even think all are touched in one degree or another by the Holy Spirit. The issue is those who choose to follow that Holy Spirit. There are those who don't follow after the promptings of the Spirit and there are those who reject the promptings of the Holy Spirit and actually seek out the influence of Satan to follow after him. To be a joint heir demands that we follow after the Holy Spirit. We remain sinners, we continue to fail, but our perfection and sanctification is found through Christ and his righteousness. Yes, we will become gods because that is the natural evolution of God's children. Are we disagreeing on anything? 2
consiglieri Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 On 6/27/2016 at 9:24 AM, JLHPROF said: For those that feel we don't focus on Christ enough, what should things look like to improve? Should we look more like an evangelical religion? Just curious. We could start by having Jesus make a guest appearance in the temple endowment.
Storm Rider Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 33 minutes ago, consiglieri said: We could start by having Jesus make a guest appearance in the temple endowment. I take it you have not been to the temple in a very long time.
consiglieri Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 13 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I take it you have not been to the temple in a very long time. Jehovah was not equated with Jesus until the first part of the 20th century.
JLHPROF Posted July 5, 2016 Author Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, consiglieri said: We could start by having Jesus make a guest appearance in the temple endowment. Oh, he is there, and I don't mean as pre-earth Jehovah. Edited July 5, 2016 by JLHPROF
consiglieri Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Oh, he is there, and I don't mean as pre-earth Jehovah. It is unfortunate that you can't explain what it is you mean by this, but it must be something other than the character of Jesus appearing in the temple endowment drama. I mean, we have Adam, Eve, Peter, James, John, a Protestant Minister (at one point) and even Lucifer, but there is no help for the widow's son, and no appearance of Jesus.
JLHPROF Posted July 5, 2016 Author Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, consiglieri said: It is unfortunate that you can't explain what it is you mean by this, but it must be something other than the character of Jesus appearing in the temple endowment drama. I mean, we have Adam, Eve, Peter, James, John, a Protestant Minister (at one point) and even Lucifer, but there is no help for the widow's son, and no appearance of Jesus. Eloheim, Jehovah, and Michael - the creation Adam, Eve, Lucifer, etc - the Fall Peter, James, John - the Priesthood authority and ordinances needed to do what? Lead you to the Lord who accepts you into his kingdom in an ordinance representing resurrection. Making sense? Which is why we cannot do an end run to Christ directly: Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. and why many will vainly attempt to pass into his kingdom calling his name but causing him to say: Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?| 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Edited July 5, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
consiglieri Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Eloheim, Jehovah, and Michael - the creation Adam, Eve, Lucifer, etc - the Fall Peter, James, John - the Priesthood authority and ordinances needed to do what? Lead you to the Lord who accepts you into his kingdom in an ordinance representing resurrection. Making sense? Which is why we cannot do an end run to Christ directly: Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. and why many will vainly attempt to pass into his kingdom calling his name but causing him to say: Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?| 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Are you saying you think the man behind the veil represents the mortal Jesus?
JLHPROF Posted July 5, 2016 Author Posted July 5, 2016 32 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Are you saying you think the man behind the veil represents the mortal Jesus? The resurrected Lord.
halconero Posted July 5, 2016 Posted July 5, 2016 25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The resurrected Lord. Even that is dependent on context. In certain situations the person is the Lord is actually the resurrected husband to a wife, who himself is endowed with the title of Adam before passing through himself. At various times the person behind the veil may be the Saviour, the Father, but also Adam, etc. Chiefly the person behind the veil is representive of a resurrected, exalted being. Interestingly, the more I discovered these principles myself the more I found them in discourses by previous prophets. 2
salgare Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 17 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: He was in the stake presidency of the BYU 12th stake of which I was a member for 3 years. William Barrett was president and Walter Bowen was the other counsellor. Our bishop was John Fugal. We were a test/pilot stake for the Correlation Program. The teaching and training I received from them has lasted my whole life.. Hyrum is one of my heros. He was a hero of many. This is what he also taught me: http://www.mormonstories.org/paul-toscano/ all of these 7 interviews with paul are excellent.
Bernard Gui Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, salgare said: Hyrum is one of my heros. He was a hero of many. This is what he also taught me: http://www.mormonstories.org/paul-toscano/ all of these 7 interviews with paul are excellent. Not sure I want to watch 6 videos of Paul Toscano (I watched the first one). I remember Paul's epic calling out of the BYU Philharmonic Orchestra director Ralph Laycock for his "trend-setting sideburns" in a Daily Universe music review Paul wrote following one of our concerts. Seems like he didn't like the cut of Ralph's chops. John Fugal had a much stronger influence on me. Edited July 6, 2016 by Bernard Gui
Avatar4321 Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 19 hours ago, consiglieri said: We could start by having Jesus make a guest appearance in the temple endowment. how would that benefit you in anyway?
Avatar4321 Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 17 hours ago, consiglieri said: Are you saying you think the man behind the veil represents the mortal Jesus? obviously I can't go into detail about our temple worship, but if you missed the Christ centric nature of the endowment, you didn't go often enough or never paid attention
consiglieri Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 42 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: obviously I can't go into detail about our temple worship, but if you missed the Christ centric nature of the endowment, you didn't go often enough or never paid attention So Jesus never makes an appearance but it is all about him anyway? This must be the Mormon version of Waiting for Godot.
JLHPROF Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 9 minutes ago, consiglieri said: This must be the Mormon version of Waiting for Godot. Rep point for the Beckett reference.
JLHPROF Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 11 minutes ago, consiglieri said: So Jesus never makes an appearance but it is all about him anyway? Pretty much. In much of the symbolism and meaning of everything from the garments, robes, signs, tokens, everything. In addition to what I wrote yesterday. Christ is everywhere in the endowment if you are looking for him. The drama is not the true endowment (which is why it is the one portion I have no issue with some presentation changes). 1
Gray Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, consiglieri said: We could start by having Jesus make a guest appearance in the temple endowment. I assume you'd prefer if the endowment were focused more on the ministry or perhaps passion narrative of Jesus than on the Garden of Eden story? Edited July 6, 2016 by Gray
JLHPROF Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 Just now, Gray said: I assume you'd prefer if the endowment were focused more on the ministry of Jesus than on the Garden of Eden story? That wouldn't provide the requisite knowledge to endow us with the necessary power.
Gray Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: That wouldn't provide the requisite knowledge to endow us with the necessary power. I think the various signs and tokens could be passed on using a number of different stories from the scriptures as a delivery mechanism. For example, they could base the endowment off of a story about Jesus' sojourn in the mountains with Moses and Elijah.
JLHPROF Posted July 6, 2016 Author Posted July 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, Gray said: I think the various signs and tokens could be passed on using a number of different stories from the scriptures as a delivery mechanism. For example, they could base the endowment off of a story about Jesus' sojourn in the mountains with Moses and Elijah. Well, that is where I believe Christ received portions of his endowment. I understand what you are saying, but the endowment is to teach the process by which the universe works - creation, fall, redemption, exaltation, and the continued cycle of which we are a part if we choose to be by honoring our covenants. The ministry of Christ (with the exception of the atonement of course) is not part of all our lives. The atonement is the means by which the fall is reversed to be sure. But other than that the ministry of Christ is not part of the specific pattern we are all partakers of.
Gray Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Well, that is where I believe Christ received portions of his endowment. I understand what you are saying, but the endowment is to teach the process by which the universe works - creation, fall, redemption, exaltation, and the continued cycle of which we are a part if we choose to be by honoring our covenants. The ministry of Christ (with the exception of the atonement of course) is not part of all our lives. The atonement is the means by which the fall is reversed to be sure. But other than that the ministry of Christ is not part of the specific pattern we are all partakers of. Sure, but you could have a lesson on the creation/fall as told in a short vision that Jesus received while on the mountain. That would actually be a very interesting story, I think. I think including a story from the life of Christ would make the endowment more accessible to more members, but personally I'm fine with the general format of the story as is. 1
consiglieri Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Gray said: I assume you'd prefer if the endowment were focused more on the ministry or perhaps passion narrative of Jesus than on the Garden of Eden story? I'd be happy if Jesus even got a Stan Lee-esque cameo. Okay, let me tell you what I really think. I think the reason for Jesus's absence in the temple drama is because the patrons themselves represent Jesus. They receive tokens representing the condescension of God to come to earth as Jesus; and then receive tokens whereby they are symbolically crucified. They even receive a name obviously associated with Jesus. They then ascend and enter into heaven to sit on the right hand of God. So truth be told, I think Jesus is present in the endowment ceremony from beginning to end. He's just not up there on the screen. He's in the audience. Edited July 6, 2016 by consiglieri
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