The Nehor Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 14 minutes ago, consiglieri said: It appears to have been a sufficient test for those in the pre-mortal existence who knew God existed . . . Welcome to Graduate level classes. They are not much fun. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Mark is describing one side of the same coin. The other side of the coin makes it clear that, in a spiritual sense, nobody could ever hope to survive or be fit without Christ and his atoning sacrifice. The Book of Mormon tells us that "all things which are good cometh of Christ, otherwise men were fallen and there could no good thing come unto them." In accordance with this great principle, spiritual survival and fitness are two of those good things that could not exist if it weren't for the person and successfully-accomplished work of Christ. I'm quite sure Mark would agree with me on this. There's a vast and and uncrossable chasm that separates atheistic existentialism and Christ as God infused Mormonism. Of course I agree, and without Christ it is impossible to get through this stuff. Even little stuff. Like right now I am going through a flare up from sciatica- which is why I am on this stupid board so much lately. But with Christ as a model, I have a better understanding of suffering and turning it toward the good. Physical pain can be a great tutor if seen properly. It is the best way I know of to test the ability of the spirit to overcome the flesh. If you can feel joy in being alive even while suffering severe pain, and learn how to mentally take yourself to a better place you know how to affirm life It might sound weird to bring up now, but the atheist philosopher Nietzsche knew this principle well because he had many health problems. He dreamed up a kind of myth which I personally think was a substitute for the religion he never understood. When Nietzsche spoke of God being "dead" I think it is clear that he was right- but the god who was dead was the old God of the creedal sectarians. That god was never alive to start off with But Nietzsche's "myth" was called "Eternal Recurrence" and he saw it as the ultimate affirmation of life despite its trials. He said the one should live one's live in such a way that his fondest desire would be that that life he lived would occur exactly as he lived it, with all the mistakes, pain, suffering trials and yes, of course joys as well, again and again. That the same life would be lived over and over again throughout eternity while each time we would be able to "shout insatiably da capo" or "from the beginning". The ultimate affirmation of life is to want to live the same life over and over for eternity without regret- seeing each event good and bad as a tapestry of LIFE and a celebration! Quote "Whoever thou mayest be, beloved stranger, whom I meet here for the first time, avail thyself of this happy hour and of the stillness around us, and above us, and let me tell thee something of the thought which has suddenly risen before me like a star which would fain shed down its rays upon thee and every one, as befits the nature of light. - Fellow man! Your whole life, like a sandglass, will always be reversed and will ever run out again, - a long minute of time will elapse until all those conditions out of which you were evolved return in the wheel of the cosmic process. And then you will find every pain and every pleasure, every friend and every enemy, every hope and every error, every blade of grass and every ray of sunshine once more, and the whole fabric of things which make up your life. This ring in which you are but a grain will glitter afresh forever. And in every one of these cycles of human life there will be one hour where, for the first time one man, and then many, will perceive the mighty thought of the eternal recurrence of all things:- and for mankind this is always the hour of Noon".[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return#Friedrich_Nietzsche So here you have the most prominent atheist probably of all time, constructing a myth about the nature of life which gives his life meaning, and yet is remarkably close to the kinds of understandings we can get from the gospel of Jesus Christ. The reversal of suffering into affirmation is precisely the message of the crucifixion- turning death into life and resurrection eternally. And then we have those here who have no clue what this is even about, because they can't find God with a telescope. Sigh. Militant ignorance is the hardest kind to overcome. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) Ironically...through cultural peer pressure, guilt, manipulation and family expectations...some would say that many are forced to be MORMON against their own personal choice,desire and will. That the social costs of living an authentic life is just too high, that the risk of divorce or loss of the approval of family and friends too much to pay...leaving some to conclude that it is Cultural Mormonism that is using Satan's plan...of force and manipulation to achieve its ends. NOTE: I never said that it is the church that is following Satan's plan. Edited June 1, 2016 by Johnnie Cake 1
The Nehor Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 Just now, Johnnie Cake said: Ironically...through cultural peer pressure, guilt, manipulation and family expectations...some would say that many are forced to be MORMON against their own personal choice,desire and will. That the social costs of living an authentic life is just too high, that the risk of divorce or loss of the approval of family too much to pay...leaving some to conclude that it is Cultural Mormonism that is using Satan's plan...of force and manipulation to achieve its ends. NOTE: I never said that it is the church that is following Satan's plan. I keep hearing about these feeble and weak-willed people and I have met a few and can only say that sneezing in their direction blows them onto a new course. How do we avoid pressuring these people except for cutting off all contact? 3
Jeanne Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 6 hours ago, consiglieri said: I think Joseph Fielding Smith may have been in favor of Lucifer's plan to a certain degree. How else do you explain the fact he cut out the three pages containing the 1832 First Vision account from the book they were written in, and then he locked those pages away in his safe for 30-years? They became public only when their existence was leaked and the Tanners started publicly demanding their release in 1964. All of this was documented in a 2014 Dialogue article. Asking people to decide which church is true when that same church is hiding negative information sounds like it would reduce an individual's agency. Really?
Jeanne Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 5 hours ago, Gray said: Jesus' plan seems to echo what we see in the natural world - that is to say, natural selection, of a sort. I'm not sure how Lucifer's plan would be workable. How would you force everyone to behave? What is accomplished by that? Not to say there aren't logical problems both ways, of course. I like this. And would like to add that I feel no man/woman should be measured by wealth or possessions with or without God. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 37 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I keep hearing about these feeble and weak-willed people and I have met a few and can only say that sneezing in their direction blows them onto a new course. How do we avoid pressuring these people except for cutting off all contact? Matt 10 Quote 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 1
Ahab Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Matt 10 Translation: Sneeze 'The Nehor', sneeze. Go ahead and set them at variance against those who are trying to put others on the wrong course. Do all you can do to put everyone on the right course, as Jesus did and still does with his sword.
Bobbieaware Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Of course I agree, and without Christ it is impossible to get through this stuff. Even little stuff. Like right now I am going through a flare up from sciatica- which is why I am on this stupid board so much lately. But with Christ as a model, I have a better understanding of suffering and turning it toward the good. Physical pain can be a great tutor if seen properly. It is the best way I know of to test the ability of the spirit to overcome the flesh. If you can feel joy in being alive even while suffering severe pain, and learn how to mentally take yourself to a better place you know how to affirm life It might sound weird to bring up now, but the atheist philosopher Nietzsche knew this principle well because he had many health problems. He dreamed up a kind of myth which I personally think was a substitute for the religion he never understood. When Nietzsche spoke of God being "dead" I think it is clear that he was right- but the god who was dead was the old God of the creedal sectarians. That god was never alive to start off with But Nietzsche's "myth" was called "Eternal Recurrence" and he saw it as the ultimate affirmation of life despite its trials. He said the one should live one's live in such a way that his fondest desire would be that that life he lived would occur exactly as he lived it, with all the mistakes, pain, suffering trials and yes, of course joys as well, again and again. That the same life would be lived over and over again throughout eternity while each time we would be able to "shout insatiably da capo" or "from the beginning". The ultimate affirmation of life is to want to live the same life over and over for eternity without regret- seeing each event good and bad as a tapestry of LIFE and a celebration! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return#Friedrich_Nietzsche So here you have the most prominent atheist probably of all time, constructing a myth about the nature of life which gives his life meaning, and yet is remarkably close to the kinds of understandings we can get from the gospel of Jesus Christ. The reversal of suffering into affirmation is precisely the message of the crucifixion- turning death into life and resurrection eternally. And then we have those here who have no clue what this is even about, because they can't find God with a telescope. Sigh. Militant ignorance is the hardest kind to overcome. Even atheists, more often than not, enjoy a portion of the indwelling presence of the light of Christ, even that light of holiness "that lighteth every man that cometh into the world." And I happen to also believe that for most atheists the foray into the realm of unbelief will, paradoxically, turn out to be an important growth-stage in their spiritual development -- a temporary and semi-logical drop-off point that will serve to increase their love appreciation for the Lord, once they find him. And I believe you're right, we must learn to find God and his joy and peace even as we're struggling with our sorrows and suffering. God can only be known, experienced and understood within the mind. Drop off an unforgiven and unenlightened man in center of the celestial kingdom and he'd be perfectly miserable. The kingdom of God must first exist within the heart and mind because if it doesn't, for all practical purposes, it exists nowhere at all. This is why the Lord said that we should not seek the kingdom of God as a place or destination, but to come to understand it as a divinely-inspired state of mind. Edited June 2, 2016 by Bobbieaware 2
mfbukowski Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 27 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: And I believe you're right, we must learn to find God, and his joy and peace even as we're struggling with our sorrows and suffering. God can only be known, experienced and understood within the mind. Drop off an unforgiven and unenlightened man in center of the celestial kingdom and he'd be perfectly miserable. The kingdom of God must first exist within the heart and mind because if it doesn't, for all practical purposes, it exists nowhere at all. This is why the Lord said that we should not seek the kingdom of God as a place or destination, but to come to understand it as a divinely-inspired state of mind. This is the key that no one gets. Every post on this board should use this as a siggy!
Bobbieaware Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: This is the key that no one gets. Every post on this board should use this as a siggy! Thank you for your kind words.
Bernard Gui Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 16 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: There's nothing hateful here, nor I do feel hateful. If anything I feel apathy toward inaction of a supernatural being (that some of us believe). Perhaps, but you still have no way of verifying that statement. Why do you bother?
Atheist Mormon Posted June 2, 2016 Author Posted June 2, 2016 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Perhaps, but you still have no way of verifying that statement. Why do you bother? Verifying what? Of course you cannot verify that statement. It is what it is I responded.....
consiglieri Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 20 hours ago, Jeanne said: Really? I just found out about this myself. My curiosity was aroused first by Elder Maynes' recent devotional address on the First Vision accounts, where he said the 1832 account has been in the possession of the Church since it was written, but was first published in a master's thesis in 1965. Why, I wondered, did it take that long to be published? And why, I further wondered, did it first appear in a Master's Thesis? Turns out there was a nice Dialogue article in 2014 that discusses the entire episode. Here in brief are the highlights. Joseph Fielding Smith was the Church historian, and also an apostle. Sometime in the 1830's, JFS finds what has been titled "Letter Book 1" among the archives. The first pages of this Letter Book contain Joseph Smith's own handwritten account of the First Vision, but does not mention seeing two personages, but apparently only one (i.e., "I saw the Lord.") JFS was so concerned about this, that he actually cut out the first three pages of the Letter Book and put those pages in the safe in his office. The Letter Book (minus the 3 pages) then went into the Church Archives. Sometime in the 1940's or early 1950's, the President of the Quorum of Seventy (Levi Edgar Young) asked JFS to look in his safe. Permission denied! Levi Edgar Young went higher and got authorization to look in the safe. JFS now had to let him look, but made him promise to not copy anything or talk about the contents to anybody. Sometime in the 1950's, Levi Edgar Young tells this experience to amateur historian LeMar Peterson, not mentioning the details, but only the surrounding circumstances and that there was a "strange account" of the First Vision in JFS's safe. Peterson sits on this until Young dies in 1963, then passes the information on to the Tanners. The Tanners then begin to talk about this and write a letter to JFS saying they know he has this "strange account" of the First Vision in his safe and asking for a copy. This is becoming public knowledge. JFS (or somebody at his direction) takes the three pages that have been in his vault for three decades and tapes them back into Letter Book 1. Paul Cheeseman, a BYU student doing a master's thesis, is allowed to see the newly restored Letter Book 1 in the archives. This is why the first time this vision was published was in a master's thesis in 1965. The funny thing is that if you to the Joseph Smith Papers Project and look at the first page of Letter Book 1, and zoom in close on the edges, you can actually see where it was cut away and taped back in! I suppose the only thing funnier is to hear Elder Maynes discount the troubling nature of the 1832 account, as if it is no big deal. Obviously Joseph Fielding Smith thought it was a pretty big deal. Else why go to such extremes to hide it?
Jeanne Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 57 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I just found out about this myself. My curiosity was aroused first by Elder Maynes' recent devotional address on the First Vision accounts, where he said the 1832 account has been in the possession of the Church since it was written, but was first published in a master's thesis in 1965. Why, I wondered, did it take that long to be published? And why, I further wondered, did it first appear in a Master's Thesis? Turns out there was a nice Dialogue article in 2014 that discusses the entire episode. Here in brief are the highlights. Joseph Fielding Smith was the Church historian, and also an apostle. Sometime in the 1830's, JFS finds what has been titled "Letter Book 1" among the archives. The first pages of this Letter Book contain Joseph Smith's own handwritten account of the First Vision, but does not mention seeing two personages, but apparently only one (i.e., "I saw the Lord.") JFS was so concerned about this, that he actually cut out the first three pages of the Letter Book and put those pages in the safe in his office. The Letter Book (minus the 3 pages) then went into the Church Archives. Sometime in the 1940's or early 1950's, the President of the Quorum of Seventy (Levi Edgar Young) asked JFS to look in his safe. Permission denied! Levi Edgar Young went higher and got authorization to look in the safe. JFS now had to let him look, but made him promise to not copy anything or talk about the contents to anybody. Sometime in the 1950's, Levi Edgar Young tells this experience to amateur historian LeMar Peterson, not mentioning the details, but only the surrounding circumstances and that there was a "strange account" of the First Vision in JFS's safe. Peterson sits on this until Young dies in 1963, then passes the information on to the Tanners. The Tanners then begin to talk about this and write a letter to JFS saying they know he has this "strange account" of the First Vision in his safe and asking for a copy. This is becoming public knowledge. JFS (or somebody at his direction) takes the three pages that have been in his vault for three decades and tapes them back into Letter Book 1. Paul Cheeseman, a BYU student doing a master's thesis, is allowed to see the newly restored Letter Book 1 in the archives. This is why the first time this vision was published was in a master's thesis in 1965. The funny thing is that if you to the Joseph Smith Papers Project and look at the first page of Letter Book 1, and zoom in close on the edges, you can actually see where it was cut away and taped back in! I suppose the only thing funnier is to hear Elder Maynes discount the troubling nature of the 1832 account, as if it is no big deal. Obviously Joseph Fielding Smith thought it was a pretty big deal. Else why go to such extremes to hide it? This is an incredible account. Surely this raises some huge big flags about not only the visions..but basic credibility of previous leaders. Thanks so much for the detailed account and for studying things out the way you do.
theplains Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 On 30/05/2016 at 8:09 PM, BCSpace said: In Genesis 3:22, we see that Satan's proposal about becoming gods... That's what the temptation was. Jim
consiglieri Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: This is an incredible account. Surely this raises some huge big flags about not only the visions..but basic credibility of previous leaders. Thanks so much for the detailed account and for studying things out the way you do. Circles within circles, Jeanne. Here is a link to a good article which summarizes the information from the Dialogue article. It also has a nice photo of Letter Book 1 where you can see where the first pages have been torn out and later taped back in. http://www.nearingkolob.com/joseph-fielding-smith-hide-strange-first-vision-account/ And here is a link to the Dialogue article itself: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/premium/Dialogue_V47N02_210.pdf Edited June 2, 2016 by consiglieri
Jeanne Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Circles within circles, Jeanne. Here is a link to a good article which summarizes the information from the Dialogue article. It also has a nice photo of Letter Book 1 where you can see where the first pages have been torn out and later taped back in. http://www.nearingkolob.com/joseph-fielding-smith-hide-strange-first-vision-account/ And here is a link to the Dialogue article itself: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/premium/Dialogue_V47N02_210.pdf Great..thank you so much!
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Circles within circles, Jeanne. Here is a link to a good article which summarizes the information from the Dialogue article. It also has a nice photo of Letter Book 1 where you can see where the first pages have been torn out and later taped back in. http://www.nearingkolob.com/joseph-fielding-smith-hide-strange-first-vision-account/ And here is a link to the Dialogue article itself: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/premium/Dialogue_V47N02_210.pdf Don't agree with what Pres. Smith did. But once again people are assuming that this was a sinister coverup motivated by selfish interests, just like Joseph Smith and polygamy. When once again it was almost certainly the very real concern that people lose their testimonies over such simple things. I don't like that the Church leaders try to protect members with weak testimonies by keeping things under wraps. But I also don't assume they have any motivation other than the preservation of the testimonies of the weakest saints. Maybe they need to be more willing to let people fall away.
Jeanne Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Don't agree with what Pres. Smith did. But once again people are assuming that this was a sinister coverup motivated by selfish interests, just like Joseph Smith and polygamy. When once again it was almost certainly the very real concern that people lose their testimonies over such simple things. I don't like that the Church leaders try to protect members with weak testimonies by keeping things under wraps. But I also don't assume Protecting testimonies? Back in the day, everyone pretty much thought that the first vision was the Father and Son. Why would truth affect testimonies..if the Church is true?
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Protecting testimonies? Back in the day, everyone pretty much thought that the first vision was the Father and Son. Why would truth affect testimonies..if the Church is true? Because in general people cannot handle contradiction. It makes them uncomfortable. Why, a version of the First Vision that only mentions "The Lord" and not the Father AND the Son. Well, that's just going to make some people's testimony crumble... Forget the variations in the resurrection of Christ accounts. That has to be true, but a variation in Joseph's accounts. Well, that's just proof it was made up by a poor farmboy. Unlike the return from the dead of a Jewish carpenter 2000 years ago. The inconsistencies in those accounts are much more acceptable. /SARCASM Really though, truth doesn't shake testimonies. Contradiction shakes testimonies.
Atheist Mormon Posted June 2, 2016 Author Posted June 2, 2016 On 6/1/2016 at 4:39 PM, mfbukowski said: But with Christ as a model, I have a better understanding of suffering and turning it toward the good. bukowski; Please explain to me what kind of a model you perceive Christ to be. I really would like to understand your model of Christ.
mfbukowski Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: bukowski; Please explain to me what kind of a model you perceive Christ to be. I really would like to understand your model of Christ. He is seen as a perfect human. by definition. I don't understand the question.
Atheist Mormon Posted June 3, 2016 Author Posted June 3, 2016 28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: He is seen as a perfect human. by definition. I don't understand the question. You said "Christ as a model, I have a better understanding", something I could never relate even in my believing days.
thesometimesaint Posted June 3, 2016 Posted June 3, 2016 On 6/1/2016 at 2:40 PM, Johnnie Cake said: Ironically...through cultural peer pressure, guilt, manipulation and family expectations...some would say that many are forced to be MORMON against their own personal choice,desire and will. That the social costs of living an authentic life is just too high, that the risk of divorce or loss of the approval of family and friends too much to pay...leaving some to conclude that it is Cultural Mormonism that is using Satan's plan...of force and manipulation to achieve its ends. NOTE: I never said that it is the church that is following Satan's plan. I'm the only one of my birth family that is a member of the Church, and living in California has the advantage of little social pressure to be a LDS.
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