Am I the only one who likes Lucifer's plan?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yea, I don't blame you, He has some absurd standards to live up to, It is hardest especially on those believers who are sick, afflicted with heavy illness, he promises them; 

"Thy faith hath made thee whole." ....Well Jesus you are not making anybody whole anytime soon, they are still sick......Imagine, all those prayers, circles I attended to...Did not amount to anything....

You have absolutely no way to verify this hateful statement. Someone must have really hurt you.

[Darren10]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 7:45 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

Back in the days (1976) when missionaries were teaching me in a faraway land, they were teaching the plan of salvation, the great fight between Satan and the armies of God....I thought, why fight when Lucifer is proposing; 

"Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor."

excuse me, but I liked it,  I still like it. The miseries the humankind endures is mind boggling, the US city I live in has beggars/homeless everywhere, out of 7+billion of  humanity how many of them can sustain a normal life? I say more than 50% of humanity depends on other fifty to keep them alive...Back then my life was very hard, I was experiencing horrible experiences one after another. Looking back If a were a god I'd spread the wealth to everyone, let them live in utopia, rather than in dystopia we are experiencing today..... Few years later I realized this whole scheme of religion was wrong from every angle.......

Joseph Smith Jr. And Sidney Rigdon's theophany on February 16, 1832, I think, explains why Satan wanted God the Father's honor.

Quote

 28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.84?lang=eng#83

Jesus Christ declares both in the Bible and the Book of Mormon that He had power from the Father to accomplish what He did. In my view, Satan wanted to be the Redeemer in order to be the recipient of said power and with that power take over the eternal kingdom of the Father. It was never about saving anyone but granting himself exaltation above all.

 

In Satan's plan we read that all would be saved. There is no regard for moral agency. In the end, it was all about exalting him and him alone whereas it was the will of the Father that all His children be exalted in His name and glory. Moral agency would be a crucial factor in accomplishing that. Jesus Christ offered that the Father's will be done, glory to Him and He [the Father] alone and whom through inifinite grace, extend exaltation to all. Jesus, always being one with will the Father, the Most High God, became exalted above all: a perfect representation of the Father in all things. 

 

Jesus surrendered His will to that of the Father "from the beginning". He examplified what each and every one of us should do. He even commanded the Jews of the Old World and the Nephites of the New World, in a record preserved to extend such a commandment to us all, to be perfect like unto the Father. The Father has moral agency, He can and does choose for Himself. We cannot become perfect as the Father is perfect without it.

 

Moral agency gives us humans great power. Power far beyong anything else known to us. Of all of the Father's infinite creations, "without number", only one creature can say no to Him. That is you and me. It is all the human race. For as children of the Most High, we are gods as Jesus Himself declared. No creature save human beings can say no to God. No dog, no cat, no, grass, rock, hill, or mountain. No drop of water nor vast ocean can say no to God. But we can and unfortunately do. This brings great tragedy, some of which you yourself aknowledged. We become lower than the dust of the earth as King Benjamin so greatly pointed out. Dust will always obey God's will for it. When we do not we are lower than it.

 

However....

 

We have the power to do the will of the Father because we choose to. Because of this, we stand to inherit far more blessings than anything else created by the Father. But we will always fail in and of ourselves to be perfect as the Father is perfect. This is where the mighty power of the Father is made manifest. This power was inherited and carried out in perfect unity with the Father from He who always has been perfect as the Father is perfect. That is from Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ only. There is no Savior besides Him. Through Him and His perfection we can and will some day become perfect as He and the Father are perfect. We need to freely submit to the will of the Father and do so by focusing ourselves of Jesus Christ and freely submiting ourselves to Him. We submit ourselves to Jesus through making covenants with Him and keeping them. Along the way He blesses us when we obey and extends His hands of mercy when we don't. He is our Redeemer and we stand as heirs with Him through His infinite grace as shown through His atonement. 

 

This is not possible without moral agency to freely choose for ourselves. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Darren10

[Darren10]

On May 30, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Atheist Mormon said:

Yep, beats the heck out of living on streets

You're welcome to live in my house if you do anything I tell you to do without question. We'll just consider you our most obedient lap dog we've ever had.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I guess you can say that, I feel morally far superior to God...That's for sure...I'd let Humans party and do productive stuff instead of wasting their time to worship me...But hey...yea He is God, He knows what's good for Him....

The three-year old approach to life of wanting candy and whatever else they want. Do your parents know you are on this message board?

[Atheist Mormon]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You have absolutely no way to verify this hateful statement. Someone must have really hurt you.

There's nothing hateful here, nor I do feel hateful. If anything I feel apathy toward inaction of a supernatural being (that some of us believe).

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The three-year old approach to life of wanting candy and whatever else they want. Do your parents know you are on this message board?

Not really Nehor, I'm over sixty. Just tell me what part part of that sentence bothers you, which part you find inaccurate.

If you don't see that this planet is in shambles (in a big way), humans being the primary perpetrators of all this environmental disasters, I don't know what else to write...Even a 30 thousand year old cave man could design a better prototype of human, which we discover through the science today, they were pretty much conscious of their surroundings.... But this is Evolution of a species, has nothing to do with supernatural of course.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Atheist Mormon
add a paragraph.

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Not really Nehor, I'm over sixty. Just tell me what part part of that sentence bothers you, which part you find inaccurate.

If you don't see that this planet is in shambles (in a big way), humans being the primary perpetrators of all this environmental disasters, I don't know what else to write...Even a 30 thousand year old cave man could design a better prototype of human, which we discover through the science today, they were pretty much conscious of their surroundings.... But this is Evolution of a species, has nothing to do with supernatural of course.

I never said or implied this earth is some kind of paradise.

Your cynical take is not some new discovery that disproves the existence of God. You can imagine a better world? Who cares? So can everyone else. And if I thought this world was designed for humans to have a good time on I would call the designer an idiot. Unfortunately for your case I do not believe any such thing nor does the LDS faith or most other Christian faiths. So what straw man are you trying to beat up?

[Atheist Mormon]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I never said or implied this earth is some kind of paradise.

Your cynical take is not some new discovery that disproves the existence of God. You can imagine a better world? Who cares? So can everyone else. And if I thought this world was designed for humans to have a good time on I would call the designer an idiot. Unfortunately for your case I do not believe any such thing nor does the LDS faith or most other Christian faiths. So what straw man are you trying to beat up?

I'm here, there's no "Straw Man". 

[consiglieri]

I think Joseph Fielding Smith may have been in favor of Lucifer's plan to a certain degree.

How else do you explain the fact he cut out the three pages containing the 1832 First Vision account from the book they were written in, and then he locked those pages away in his safe for 30-years?

They became public only when their existence was leaked and the Tanners started publicly demanding their release in 1964.

All of this was documented in a 2014 Dialogue article.

Asking people to decide which church is true when that same church is hiding negative information sounds like it would reduce an individual's agency.

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I'm here, there's no "Straw Man". 

As the scriptures amply testify, this time of mortal earthly probation was designed to be a crucible of adversity to test the sons and daughters of men. It's  a probationary period designed as a testing-ground to see if men and women will trust in God, and remain faithful and loyal to him, in spite of whatever challenges and sufferings they may be called upon to endure. The Son of God had to pass through the testing of mortal probation himself and his test was the most difficult and challenging of all. And ibecause the testing he endured was so great and difficult to endure he is described as a man of sorrows who is intimately acquainted with grief. Then, at the end of his mortal probation, this man of sorrows and grief was called upon to endure the combined physical, emotional and spiritual suffering of all mankind; and as a reward for his faithfulness in enduring such greats adversity he inherited a fulness of joy and peace in the resurrection.

He knows exactly how you feel in your spiritual estrangement because he was once called upon to pass through and comprehend precisely what you are now thinking and feeling. He well understands why you have succumbed to cynicism and will, no doubt, extend great mercy to you whenever you are willing to receive it.

Existence is affirmed on upon the immutable principle of diametric opposition in all things and there is nothing whatsoever he can do to alter that fact, other than heal the physical wounds and emotional scars the mortal probation will unavoidably inflict, through the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ.

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Gray]

Jesus' plan seems to echo what we see in the natural world - that is to say, natural selection, of a sort. I'm not sure how Lucifer's plan would be workable. How would you force everyone to behave? What is accomplished by that? 

Not to say there aren't logical problems both ways, of course. 

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Gray said:

Jesus' plan seems to echo what we see in the natural world - that is to say, natural selection, of a sort. I'm not sure how Lucifer's plan would be workable. How would you force everyone to behave? What is accomplished by that? 

Not to say there aren't logical problems both ways, of course. 

Bravo!

It's the Indy 500 with flat tires and avoiding wrecks and break downs any anything that CAN happen in this crazy world and still finishing- it is the greatest example of survival of the fittest that anyone could imagine.

[consiglieri]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Bravo!

It's the Indy 500 with flat tires and avoiding wrecks and break downs any anything that CAN happen in this crazy world and still finishing- it is the greatest example of survival of the fittest that anyone could imagine.

Which is oddly indistinguishable from what life would be like if there were no God . . .

[thesometimesaint]

10 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Which is oddly indistinguishable from what life would be like if there were no God . . .

Agency. We choose.

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Which is oddly indistinguishable from what life would be like if there were no God . . .

Yep. Ain't that great? How would it be a test otherwise?

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Which is oddly indistinguishable from what life would be like if there were no God . . .

Mark is describing one side of the same coin. The other side of the coin makes it clear that, in a spiritual sense, nobody could ever hope to survive or be fit without Christ and his atoning sacrifice. The Book of Mormon tells us that "all things which are good cometh of Christ, otherwise men were fallen and there could no good thing come unto them." In accordance with this great principle, spiritual survival and fitness are two of those good things that could not exist if it weren't for the person and successfully-accomplished work of Christ. I'm quite sure Mark would agree with me on this. There's a vast and and uncrossable chasm that separates atheistic existentialism and Christ-as-God infused Mormonism.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[carbon dioxide]

Lucifer plan has to much Kim Jong Un philosophy in it.  Plus I don't think Lucifer was even serious with his plan anyway.  So Lucifer loved us so much that he wanted none to be lost but then when the Father does not choose his plan, he gets upset and wants to see as many of us destroyed as possible.  I can't see any being flipping form one extreme to the other over that. I don't think he was even half serious of seeing that none would be lost.  I don't think he ever cared about any of us at all.  Just himself.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep. Ain't that great? How would it be a test otherwise?

A test that lasts the full duration of our mortal lives on this planet, even carrying over into what we call the spirit world while we wait there to be resurrected. 

Some have said that what doesn't kill us helps us to become a better person.  I say that even what kills us can do that as well.

If all of it was easy it would be really boring. 

I like that I can learn things from even the worst things that people can do or have done.

 

[Atheist Mormon]

3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

As the scriptures amply testify, this time of mortal earthly probation was designed to be a crucible of adversity to test the sons and daughters of men. It's  a probationary period designed as a testing-ground to see if men and women will trust in God, and remain faithful and loyal to him, in spite of whatever challenges and sufferings they may be called upon to endure. The Son of God had to pass through the testing of mortal probation himself and his test was the most difficult and challenging of all. And ibecause the testing he endured was so great and difficult to endure he is described as a man of sorrows who is intimately acquainted with grief. Then, at the end of his mortal probation, this man of sorrows and grief was called upon to endure the combined physical, emotional and spiritual suffering of all mankind; and as a reward for his faithfulness in enduring such greats adversity he inherited a fulness of joy and peace in the resurrection.

He knows exactly how you feel in your spiritual estrangement because he was once called upon to pass through and comprehend precisely what you are now thinking and feeling. He well understands why you have succumbed to cynicism and will, no doubt, extend great mercy to you whenever you are willing to receive it.

Existence is affirmed on upon the immutable principle of diametric opposition in all things and there is nothing whatsoever he can do to alter that fact, other than heal the physical wounds and emotional scars the mortal probation will unavoidably inflict, through the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ.

 

Bobbie,You are writing;  "It's  a probationary period designed as a testing-ground to see if men and women will trust in God, "

How is this possible? I cannot converse or negotiate with myself. In my business life I have partners, vendors, I talk to them face to face, and sadly I'm not good at hoping, waiting for someone to show up. When you say; "He knows exactly how you feel', how is this possible, that I don't know myself but "He" knows"? 

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I think Joseph Fielding Smith may have been in favor of Lucifer's plan to a certain degree.

How else do you explain the fact he cut out the three pages containing the 1832 First Vision account from the book they were written in, and then he locked those pages away in his safe for 30-years?

They became public only when their existence was leaked and the Tanners started publicly demanding their release in 1964.

All of this was documented in a 2014 Dialogue article.

Asking people to decide which church is true when that same church is hiding negative information sounds like it would reduce an individual's agency.

What negative was there in that account?

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Bobbie,You are writing;  "It's  a probationary period designed as a testing-ground to see if men and women will trust in God, "

How is this possible? I cannot converse or negotiate with myself. In my business life I have partners, vendors, I talk to them face to face, and sadly I'm not good at hoping, waiting for someone to show up. When you say; "He knows exactly how you feel', how is this possible, that I don't know myself but "He" knows"? 

 

He knows you better then you know you. A hard truth but a truth nonetheless.

[Atheist Mormon]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

He knows you better then you know you. A hard truth but a truth nonetheless.

If this "Truth" is good enough for you Nehor I'm happy for you. My standards for truth are a little less complicated.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

If this "Truth" is good enough for you Nehor I'm happy for you. My standards for truth are a little less complicated.

That truth in isolation is not good enough for me. It should not be good enough for anyone.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Bobbie,You are writing;  "It's  a probationary period designed as a testing-ground to see if men and women will trust in God, "

How is this possible? I cannot converse or negotiate with myself. In my business life I have partners, vendors, I talk to them face to face, and sadly I'm not good at hoping, waiting for someone to show up. When you say; "He knows exactly how you feel', how is this possible, that I don't know myself but "He" knows"? 

 

I looked at your profile page in an attempt to learn something more about you but found nothing. I would assume -- and it's only an assumption -- that your selected screen name may indicate you were once an active and participating member of the LDS Church but you are now an atheist as a consequence of having lost whatever faith you once may have had. If my assumption is correct, in reality there's very little commonality between you and the LDS Church believers on this site for you to ever expect to have much constructive dialogue. The prophet Alma taught the Zoramites that in order for an individual to even begin to be able to intellectually fathom the realm of God's kingdom he must at very least have a desire to believe. I don't get the impression you have that desire to want to believe at this time (perhaps I'm wrong?) and so, unless you just want to vent, you'se setting yourself up for an endless series of exercises in frustration. But if you were once an actual believer (not just a nominal 'go-along' church member) who has lost his faith, the following testimony of Alma may help you to understand why the words of those who still believe have become incomprehensible to you.

 9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteriesof God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

 10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries... (Alma 12)

By the way, you may not at all realize it at this time, but it's a virtual certainty that what you are going through will turn out to be an important element in your ultimate spiritual growth. Even the Son of God once felt he had been forsaken in a hostile universe of neverending  heartache.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[consiglieri]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep. Ain't that great? How would it be a test otherwise?

It appears to have been a sufficient test for those in the pre-mortal existence who knew God existed . . .