Am I the only one who likes Lucifer's plan?

[mfbukowski]

There are many justifications for moral behavior which do not require God's existence

NONE of them also demand objective evidence for morality- because it is contradictory to do so and wise atheists know that.

What is your justification?

[Atheist Mormon]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

No, you aren't the only one. Every demon and coward who is afraid to be accountable for his actions wanted the same.

I have no desire for totalitarianism. I am my own master. And because of that i submit to the Lord of my own choosing. Because He is true and faithful and will help me become the best me I can be. He will teach me the laws of happiness and patiently help me obey them.

Avatar, I am clearly missing something very obvious here; There's no "He" who teaches or shows anything, except in your mind. And obeying an invisible/indiscernable entity is a double whammy.

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yes I can Nehor, I serve MYSELF. How is that for a plan my friend?

selfishness is the life blood of those who serve the adversary.

[Atheist Mormon]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There are many justifications for moral behavior which do not require God's existence

NONE of them also demand objective evidence for morality- because it is contradictory to do so and wise atheists know that.

What is your justification?

NONE of them also demand objective evidence for morality

What is this a law of shariat?

[mfbukowski]

Deleted. pointless and uncharitable

Edited May 31, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Ahem....No Nehor, I won't serve anybody or bow, I'm past that.For 40yrs of my professional life Somebody always signed my paycheck. But ever since I started to sign my own with 2-3 times amount I knew I would never settle for another mediocre Boss. You see it is not about the money, it has a psychologic healing affect that you don't need anybody in life except your family and friends. It's a great feeling.

Montgomery Clift, "Anything's better than wages" (The Misfits, 1961).

[Atheist Mormon]

4 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

NONE of them also demand objective evidence for morality

What is this a law of shariat?

Glad you asked;

sharia, the body of canonical law based on the Koran that lays down certainduties and penalties for  Muslims

[mfbukowski]

Deleted, pointless and uncharitable

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Deleted.  Pointless and uncharitable

Edited May 31, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mrmarklin]

On May 30, 2016 at 5:45 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

Back in the days (1976) when missionaries were teaching me in a faraway land, they were teaching the plan of salvation, the great fight between Satan and the armies of God....I thought, why fight when Lucifer is proposing; 

"Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor."

excuse me, but I liked it,  I still like it. The miseries the humankind endures is mind boggling, the US city I live in has beggars/homeless everywhere, out of 7+billion of  humanity how many of them can sustain a normal life? I say more than 50% of humanity depends on other fifty to keep them alive...Back then my life was very hard, I was experiencing horrible experiences one after another. Looking back If a were a god I'd spread the wealth to everyone, let them live in utopia, rather than in dystopia we are experiencing today..... Few years later I realized this whole scheme of religion was wrong from every angle.......

Think you're living in Cuba. A slave to the Castro brothers. 

 

Free medical care, education and subsistence living so they can have the glory. 

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Think you're living in Cuba. A slave to the Castro brothers. 

 

Free medical care, education and subsistence living so they can have the glory. 

No, your thinking is way off. I live in Estados Unidos America and pay tons of taxes to Uncle Sam.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I'll repeat the same; 

First off, I will not mass murder all life on this planet, #2-I will not ask to anyone to prove their loyalty by sacrificing their firstborn # 3 I would never bet with satan on Job's loyalty, the guy went through hell&back, for what? #4Why would I force people worship me around the clock and not other Gods? 

The Bible is full of self incriminating stories of God. Nobody has to be a genius to do better than the God Humans created.

 0

•  

So you are proud of not doing things you are incapable of doing? Would you be impressed if I told you a eunuch was chaste?

[Atheist Mormon]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So you are proud of not doing things you are incapable of doing? Would you be impressed if I told you a eunuch was chaste?

Yes, I'm glad glad I'm incapable of committing Genocide, or attempting to kill my son....What is your point?

[BlueDreams]

23 hours ago, JAHS said:

It's happening again this thread has 15 replies and Zero views. You all really should look at the OP before replying. ;-)

 

I don't need to. I have the god gene and psychic hallucinations to inform me. Reading is for losers! 

Sarcasm is more of a cultural disposition than a genetic one. At least that's what felt the last time as I pondered my existence

with luv,

bd

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yes, I'm glad glad I'm incapable of committing Genocide, or attempting to kill my son....What is your point?

You are incapable of commiting genocide because you have no opportunity. Boasting about how moral you are because you have not is silly and empty. As to killing your son Inreally doubt you have one so same boat there.

[Atheist Mormon]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are incapable of commiting genocide because you have no opportunity. Boasting about how moral you are because you have not is silly and empty. As to killing your son Inreally doubt you have one so same boat there.

Okay, you give me a scenario how you could commit above atrocities. And again ask yourself why would I love a God who is capable of doing these disgusting things. We don't give any hall pass to any murderers, in fact we despise them...Again, what was the good reason God's testing Abraham's loyalty by killing his son, or Job's losing his family? 

Do any of you makes sense to you? I'd like to know, because It never made sense to me when I read it first 12yrs old or now... 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't need to. I have the god gene and psychic hallucinations to inform me. Reading is for losers! 

Sarcasm is more of a cultural disposition than a genetic one. At least that's what felt the last time as I pondered my existence

with luv,

bd

you got it! 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

 

Do any of you makes sense to you?  

Heavy.

Sometimes I just can't help myself.  The sheer hubris combined with.....  oh nevermind.   I will just have to erase it in 5 minutes to keep myself even cognitively consonant.  Being Christlike ain't easy and I seem to be particularly bad at it.

Dang ya Adam Miller.   You spoil all my fun.

Quote

 Theology, according to Miller, has no purpose in the usual sense, because it’s only purpose is a gratuitous purpose, namely the chief Christian virtue or good, charity.  “Charity is a willingness to have our lives made difficult by people we did not have to help, objects we did not have to save, thoughts we did not have to think.” RGT is a collection of “thoughts we did not have to think,” and in that sense is avowedly gratuitous and would be self-deprecating:  “Mine is not the one true Rube Goldberg Machine.”  

And yet Miller’s is a RGM that earnestly holds out the promise that, in the end, when “all the levers are pulled, all the buttons are pushed, and all the switches are switched, it is a small, hard, round, red, shiny ball of charity that rolls out of the machine…” (132)  No metaphor could be more arresting, even oddly endearing than this little red ball of charity; but still it is not clear what the gratuity of an ingeniously superfluous device has to do with the pure love of Christ.  What they have in common seems, so far (and at this point we are only commenting the Introduction), purely negative: the renunciation of ordinary human interests and of the functionality that serves them.   Both RBMs and Grace are pointless from the standpoint of the “natural man” and thus unconditioned by corrupt human purposes.  This is the basis, it seems, of the plausibility of Miller’s brilliant and ingenious metaphor.

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleMillerSymposiumHancock.html

Edited May 31, 2016 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Okay, you give me a scenario how you could commit above atrocities. And again ask yourself why would I love a God who is capable of doing these disgusting things. We don't give any hall pass to any murderers, in fact we despise them...Again, what was the good reason God's testing Abraham's loyalty by killing his son, or Job's losing his family? 

Do any of you makes sense to you? I'd like to know, because It never made sense to me when I read it first 12yrs old or now... 

You are too wrapped up in moral superiority over not being behind the holocaust to understand the reasons if I did try and share them and I just did.

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Heavy.

Being Christlike ain't easy and I seem to be particularly bad at it.

Yea, I don't blame you, He has some absurd standards to live up to, It is hardest especially on those believers who are sick, afflicted with heavy illness, he promises them; 

"Thy faith hath made thee whole." ....Well Jesus you are not making anybody whole anytime soon, they are still sick......Imagine, all those prayers, circles I attended to...Did not amount to anything....

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You are too wrapped up in moral superiority over not being behind the holocaust to understand the reasons if I did try and share them and I just did.

I guess you can say that, I feel morally far superior to God...That's for sure...I'd let Humans party and do productive stuff instead of wasting their time to worship me...But hey...yea He is God, He knows what's good for Him....

[BlueDreams]

39 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yea, I don't blame you, He has some absurd standards to live up to, It is hardest especially on those believers who are sick, afflicted with heavy illness, he promises them; 

"Thy faith hath made thee whole." ....Well Jesus you are not making anybody whole anytime soon, they are still sick......Imagine, all those prayers, circles I attended to...Did not amount to anything....

This sounds personal and i don't want to delve too much into something that probably strikes close to home because that tends to trigger things in folks - even if that's not what is meant - particularly on a message board where tone is hard to read. 

But this reminds me of Leah in the OT. She's become one of my favorites. Rachel and Jacob get this amazing love story while Leah is a side-note/hiccup at best and a thorn in the side at worst. But Leah really gets the shaft in this permanent love-triangle. At one point the Lord "opened her womb" because He saw she was hated. When she conceives she assumes "surely the Lord hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me." But he didn't. It happened again. And again. She kept believing that somehow giving all these sons would make her husband love her and that would be God's gift. She learns the gift is really her children and praises the Lord for her next child before calling it quits for a bit on the baby-making and Jacob chasing. Still, it's obvious that by the next chapter she still has this nagging hope that at some point her husband will really be with her, particularly as she goes back to having children. But it never works.

Wholeness, from scripture rarely means a completion where all our woes are removed or that we will receive our hearts desires. Most of the time that's not what happens. In fact from Job, the story you describe as meaningless suffering there's a passage in Job 5 that starts off as "behold happy is the man who God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the almighty: for he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole. He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee...." It goes on and makes it apparent that the struggle has allowed one not just to be freed, sheltered, or removed from struggle but to learn to overcome, endure, and grow from struggle.

Obviously struggle can break a person too (at least in this life). I can think of one person right now where it did just that, at least in the short term. I'm not saying this is a perfect formula that fits every believing individual. But it's been true for me. My life hasn't become trouble free, but I find myself more peaceful and solid when trouble comes. And that is a gift that I couldn't have from sheltering me from evil, struggle, or brokenness. My life didn't start out as peaches and roses, but I don't blame God for that (or ask why He can't fix it...it's a good wish, what I'd like to be fixed)...instead in some ways I've found myself thanking Him. My pain in His hands has made me a better person and more capable to hold people and other's pain in ways I couldn't without it. And because of that I have learned bits and pieces of what it means to be "christlike." I don't see it as a bar that He holds up and says "reach!" I see it as an invitation to know Him on a most intimate level - to my core personhood and with His hands, not my own. And it is not an expectation that I meet today but a lifelong journey that I find with Him.    

 

With luv,

BD

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I feel morally far superior to God...That's for sure...I'd let Humans party and do productive stuff instead of wasting their time to worship me...

When I was a little boy, I repeatedly thought that when I was a parent, I'd let my children party and do interesting stuff instead of wasting their time with all the tasks that seemed to fill my life: planting, weeding, harvesting, preserving, feeding, milking, cutting, drying, storing, washing, cleaning, ironing, cooking, etc.

And then I grew up.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 31/05/2016 at 0:26 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

Nobody told me then...

Wait, you never realised that Satan was the father of lies, the one 'which deceiveth the whole world'???

Quote

...even so, he had the power....

No he didn't. No one has the power to save -- let alone exalt -- in ignorance and completely without agency. That's like arguing that someone has the power to cure cancer through the application of tobacco. Saying it doesn't make it so.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[Atheist Mormon]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Wait, you never realised that Satan was the father of lies, the one 'which deceiveth the whole world'???

No he didn't. No one has the power to save -- let alone exalt -- in ignorance and completely without agency. That's like arguing that someone has the power to cure cancer through the application of tobacco. Saying it doesn't make it so.

Wait, nobody told me God & Jesus were the father of all lies, they never delivered what they promised to humankind.....