Safety and Being Too Nice

[Meadowchik]

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

I agree.  I know of a kindly old gent who is a hugger, and everyone thinks it is cute.

I have noticed the only ones he hugs are young women, however.  If having a conversation, he will stand to their side and put his arm around him.  My daughters were uncomfortable with that and my wife was uncomfortable for them as well, and then and someone mentioned it to the bishop, who took him aside and let him know that some were uncomfortable with that.  He just shrugged it off and continues.  My daughters just move away from him.  

I honestly even wonder if he fully understands that it can bother some people, it seems that he just thinks he is being friendly

 

[smac97]

On 5/26/2016 at 6:27 AM, Meadowchik said:

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

A few thoughts:

• I think different people have different approaches to this sort of thing.
• Some cultural traditions are generally more "huggy" or physically affectionate than others, even with people whom they do not know particularly well.  
• Some cultural traditions are generally averse to such expressions.
• Some older folks might have recollections from their younger days of giving/receiving hugs at Church.
• Women are, I think, generally more comfortable with token physical expressions of affection (hugs) than men.  
• I think there is something of a double standard in play.  That is, as an adult man I recognize that there are some folks who view all adult men with some measure of suspicion.  This suspicion is A) based on my age and gender, B) not equally reflected against adult women, and C) a generally unwarranted, but nevertheless understandable, response to constant social/news media stories about child molestation.  
• I'm not sure there is any "right" or "wrong" answer to this issue, but there appear to be some outliers.  I have never encountered a situation where a total stranger asks for a hug, and I would not be comfortable with such a thing (for myself or my wife or children).
• In my ward, we had a problem with a man who was a little too "huggy."  The bishop spoke with him (respectfully and privately) and it stopped.
• I have long had a personal rule that I do not touch any child other than my own in any way except for a handshake or fist bump or high five.  I have a very young niece who is a bit "huggy," so I will let her give me a hug as long as I am in the open view of one of her parents.
• I never have any of my children's friends alone in a car or in my home.  I always make sure I have either my wife or one of my older children with me.  Even if it is a five-minute drive to drop them off at home.
• I have had a few instances where I have noticed a lost child in a public place (a mall, a farmer's market, etc.).  When this happens I A) approach but stay several feet away from the child (no physical contact at all), B) check to see if they have a parent nearby, C) if they are lost, I request the assistance of a nearby woman whom I do not know to approach the child, and D) I ask another person to locate or contact the police.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 29, 2016 by smac97

[Jeanne]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

This conversation with your daughter is a great thing.  If/when she gets into the workforce..this kind of thing is all over the place! 

[Meadowchik]

45 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A few thoughts:

• I think different people have different approaches to this sort of thing.
• Some cultural traditions are generally more "huggy" or physically affectionate than others, even with people whom they do not know particularly well.  
• Some cultural traditions are generally averse to such expressions.
• Some older folks might have recollections from their younger days of giving/receiving hugs at Church.
• Women are, I think, generally more comfortable with token physical expressions of affection (hugs) than men.  
• I think there is something of a double standard in play.  That is, as an adult man I recognize that there are some folks who view all adult men with some measure of suspicion.  This suspicion is A) based on my age and gender, B) not equally reflected against adult women, and C) a generally unwarranted, but nevertheless understandable, response to constant social/news media stories about child molestation.  
• I'm not sure there is any "right" or "wrong" answer to this issue, but there appear to be some outliers.  I have never encountered a situation where a total stranger asks for a hug, and I would not be comfortable with such a thing (for myself or my wife or children).
• In my ward, we had a problem with a man who was a little too "huggy."  The bishop spoke to with (respectfully and privately) and it stopped.
• I have long had a personal rule that I do not touch any child other than my own in any way except for a handshake or fist bump or high five.  I have a very young niece who is a bit "huggy," so I will let her give me a hug as long as I am in the open view of one of her parents.
• I never have any of my children's friends alone in a car or in my home.  I always make sure I have either my wife or one of my older children with me.  Even if it is a five-minute drive to drop them off at home.
• I have had a few instances where I have noticed a lost child in a public place (a mall, a farmer's market, etc.).  When this happens I A) approach but stay several feet away from the child (no physical contact at all), B) check to see if they have a parent nearby, C) if they are lost, I request the assistance of a nearby woman whom I do not know to approach the child, and D) I ask another person to locate or contact the police.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks!

To be clear I wasn't thinking about how to respond to too-friendly people. It is about knowing that kindness and love can exist while still being defensive and protective of manipulation and aggression. It's not easy when our first impulse may be to smile, chat, and help.

I know of a very friendly young women living "out in the mission field" who was attacked and killed by a stranger. Witnesses say she did not scream or struggle when he drove her away in a car. I wonder if she could have saved herself had she been able to envision herself screaming, hitting, spitting, whatever it took, beforehand.

The story of the higher on the bus was a stranger story in public, not in church. Not that inappropriateness cannot happen in church, it and ahgression and rape can.

We and our children should envision ourselves yelling NO, if need be in situations of aggression. And then other times simply saying "This makes me feel uncomfortable, please leave me alone." Without apology.

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

Know what?

I don't ever want to see people who feel timid in trying to express their feelings with others, as long as nobody is intentionally trying to hurt another person's feelings.

I don't particularly enjoy shaking hands with other people, so I don't go around trying to shake people's hands, even when someone sticks out their hand while wanting me to extend mine.  Instead I'll usually just say Hi or Hello or something like that, unless I think someone thinks that I am intentionally trying to be rude and then hesitantantly I will stick out my hand.

It makes me a bit uncomfortable but it's usually over with soon unless somebody wants to grab onto my hand and keep holding it while talking to me.  I'll then pull my hand away rather quickly and pat them on a shoulder or something as I start walking away.

It's always our choice to do or not do, whatever the choice,  and I don't fault people for trying to be friendly with me.

 

[bluebell]

Ted Bundy used women's natural desires to be helpful and friendly against a number of his victims (pretending he had a broken arm and asking for help getting stuff into his car was a favorite ploy of his).

I think it is harder for women to have boundaries in public, because so many men believe (subconsciously) that any woman who isn't friendly and doesn't respond to advances or conversation is a you-know-what.

 

 

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Know what?

I don't ever want to see people who feel timid in trying to express their feelings with others, as long as nobody is intentionally trying to hurt another person's feelings.

I don't particularly enjoy shaking hands with other people, so I don't go around trying to shake people's hands, even when someone sticks out their hand while wanting me to extend mine.  Instead I'll usually just say Hi or Hello or something like that, unless I think someone thinks that I am intentionally trying to be rude and then hesitantantly I will stick out my hand.

It makes me a bit uncomfortable but it's usually over with soon unless somebody wants to grab onto my hand and keep holding it while talking to me.  I'll then pull my hand away rather quickly and pat them on a shoulder or something as I start walking away.

It's always our choice to do or not do, whatever the choice,  and I don't fault people for trying to be friendly with me.

 

I'm talking about overcoming the conditioning to be kind ourselves, as a response to aggresion. I'm not talking about responding to merely extra-friendly people.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

.

• I have had a few instances where I have noticed a lost child in a public place (a mall, a farmer's market, etc.).  When this happens I A) approach but stay several feet away from the child (no physical contact at all), B) check to see if they have a parent nearby, C) if they are lost, I request the assistance of a nearby woman whom I do not know to approach the child, and D) I ask another person to locate or contact the police.

Thanks,

-Smac

I've had this happen to me twice (once at a walmart and again at a hobby lobby).  It's hard to know how to approach kids who are lost-trying to be comforting and helpful and also not scare them or get overbearing.  The first time I dealt with it it wasn't so bad because the little girl was scared and wanted help.  The second time the little boy was more than happy to just wander the store and look for his grandma himself so with him i had to sort of herd him towards store personnel without touching him or forcing him to go in a specific direction.

It's hard, because evil people have made even this kind of thing a minefield.  

[Meadowchik]

55 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

This conversation with your daughter is a great thing.  If/when she gets into the workforce..this kind of thing is all over the place! 

I hope to teach all my kids a balance of friendliness/kindness with watchfull assertiveness. It comes easier for some than others, for different reasons.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I agree.  I know of a kindly old gent who is a hugger, and everyone thinks it is cute.

I have noticed the only ones he hugs are young women, however.  If having a conversation, he will stand to their side and put his arm around him.  My daughters were uncomfortable with that and my wife was uncomfortable for them as well, and then and someone mentioned it to the bishop, who took him aside and let him know that some were uncomfortable with that.  He just shrugged it off and continues.  My daughters just move away from him.  

I honestly even wonder if he fully understands that it can bother some people, it seems that he just thinks he is being friendly

 

There was this older man who asked my 15yo to dance twice at the ward nye party. I felt so bad afterward when she said how uncomfortable she'd been.

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm talking about overcoming the conditioning to be kind ourselves, as a response to aggresion. I'm not talking about responding to merely extra-friendly people.

Ah, so you were wondering if most of us LDS know or think it's okay to respond to aggression without necessarily being kind?

I think so, with various levels of being unkind or what I think would be seen as being unkind. 

If someone was shooting at us with a gun I think most of us would know it would be okay for us to shoot back.  

I don't think we should shoot people or even yell at them for just trying to hug us or shake our hand, though.

[Ahab]

16 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I hope to teach all my kids a balance of friendliness/kindness with watchfull assertiveness. It comes easier for some than others, for different reasons.

That balance should be well defined to make it clear what we/they are weighing in that balance.

Between being nice and not so nice.

Between speaking out and staying quiet.

Between letting others do what they want and trying to stop them or limit them from doing what they want to do when what they are doing affects us.

Between our own comfort zone and somebody else's comfort zone.

Between extending ourselves to cooperate and when to just pull back and say No.

Fortunately for parents most teenagers actively seek to test the limits of what they can and should do and can get guidance from God to help them.

 

[mfbukowski]

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Ted Bundy used women's natural desires to be helpful and friendly against a number of his victims (pretending he had a broken arm and asking for help getting stuff into his car was a favorite ploy of his).

I think it is harder for women to have boundaries in public, because so many men believe (subconsciously) that any woman who isn't friendly and doesn't respond to advances or conversation is a you-know-what.

 

 

If I said that, would it be sexist?

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

If I said that, would it be sexist?

I'm just speaking from actually personal experience.  It started when I was 13 and thankfully now that I'm almost 40 it's finally stopping.  Grown women are harder targets I guess.

If you've had the same experience with women, then feel free to speak up.  If the truth is sexist so be it. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

There was this older man who asked my 15yo to dance twice at the ward nye party. I felt so bad afterward when she said how uncomfortable she'd been.

This is sad...why do they do this?  Many women to dance with and they pick a 15 year old.  I am sure you handled it well.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

"...be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves." There are wolves everywhere there are sheep.

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

"...be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves." There are wolves everywhere there are sheep.

So how do we teach our children to recognise a wolf?

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

This is sad...why do they do this?  Many women to dance with and they pick a 15 year old.  I am sure you handled it well.

Perfect evidence they didnt do it at 15

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

So how do we teach our children to recognise a wolf?

Assume at first they all are, then get to know them and let them prove themselves one way or the other.  Stick to the young wolves instead of the old ones

I don't know about church guys, but in my book all males are guilty until proven innocent with my daughters

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm just speaking from actually personal experience.  It started when I was 13 and thankfully now that I'm almost 40 it's finally stopping.  Grown women are harder targets I guess.

If you've had the same experience with women, then feel free to speak up.  If the truth is sexist so be it. 

Grown women are only harder targets because they understand how men actually are.

Frankly, women in general are naive about this stuff.  

On the other hand, there are women who are very friendly toward me,  touchy and flirty, except when my wife is around.  And I am older than dirt!  When she is with me I barely get a hello.

So it works both ways I guess.  I find that very surprising!!  It's disconcerting because it makes the whole friendship thing very weird

[VideoGameJunkie]

There was this Australian big guy in my home ward who was married, but would kiss all the young women he considered pretty on the cheek and bring up their names during fast and testimony meeting. He was eventually arrested when it was found out he slept with one of the Mia maids. You have to watch out who's flirting with the Young women.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

There was this Australian big guy in my home ward who was married, but would kiss all the young women he considered pretty on the cheek and bring up their names during fast and testimony meeting. He was eventually arrested when it was found out he slept with one of the Mia maids. You have to watch out who's flirting with the Young women.

Why was he arrested? Sleeping with a Mia Maid is not against the law.

[rodheadlee]

On 5/26/2016 at 6:27 AM, Meadowchik said:

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

I guess it's cultural because my natural reflex is to back up and get defensive when someone gets in my space, male or female. My space would be about 2 arms length. Never pull up close to the car in front of you at a stop light or RR crossing and be in the left lane if possible to leave a lane of escape. Lock the doors when you get in the car. Most important is to be aware of your surroundings. Keep your head on a swivel. The town I live in right now is pretty dangerous we don't go out at night, if we do we only travel in certain sections of town. Don't flash cash or fancy jewlery in the wrong part of town. Keep small bills and change in a separate pocket, that way when you choose to donate to a homeless they don't see your wallet. Keep your wallet in your front pocket so you don't get it stolen. When my wife donates or gets into her purse my head is on a swivel. You women should get your keys out and have them ready before you go outside to get in your car. Your keys balled up in your hand with one sticking out between your knuckles is a great weapon. I keep my hand on my keys when they are in my pocket. My wife used to carry mace. Be aware of who follows you out of the mall/store.

Edited May 27, 2016 by rodheadlee

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

So how do we teach our children to recognise a wolf?

My foundation approach was (and is now, with grandchildren) is to strive to be a good sheep myself, or wise as a serpent ("quick to observe") and as harmless as a dove (charitable). Explaining what I am observing and doing, as age-appropriate, can help model what I'm trying to teach. From there, as a "watchman," it's a balance of holding their hands and letting them climb up the monkey bars and slides themselves (actually and metaphorically), which I think teaches them to observe, discern, and have the confidence to act and to do their best (the basis for charity). Reading scripture stories from the earliest age helps them see that people are not always as nice as they appear -- I always like to use Aesop's fables and some of the fairy tales as well. Then there is the more frank and direct approach with child safety instruction.

A good example (perhaps): I grew up in NYC and from the earliest age my mother taught us to always walk briskly as if I was on my way to meet someone, and always look ahead. I still walk that way LOL "Man on mission" they say... She also taught us to follow our conscience, instruction which has served me well all my life. I think that gift helps us know right from wrong for ourselves, but also for our situations and circumstances and for recognizing wolves.

I think teaching a child to follow his conscience helps him develop / trust his intuition, and teaching him to walk helps him develop / trust his five sense.