Safety and Being Too Nice

[thesometimesaint]

You can't be too nice, But use some common sense about it.

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I agree in part, but it comes down to whether an action makes others "uncomfortable" or whether the action is downright "creepy".

Does it though? What is the difference between uncomfortable and creep, other than one describes a feeling and one describes the act itself?  In what is described here it is the frequency more than the act itself. I think maybe we need to stop describing sexually aggressive behavior by how it makes people feel. It makes it far more difficult for the perp to make it the other guy's problem. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

seeing the apostle Mark E. Petersen at another job

(...I didn't know Elder Petersen had another job...)

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, juliann said:

Does it though? What is the difference between uncomfortable and creep, other than one describes a feeling and one describes the act itself?  In what is described here it is the frequency more than the act itself. I think maybe we need to stop describing sexually aggressive behavior by how it makes people feel. It makes it far more difficult for the perp to make it the other guy's problem. 

Sexual aggression is certainly is about the abuse of  power, which can only be offset with the reclamation and preservation of power, whether personally or by proxy.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

(...I didn't know Elder Petersen had another job...)

No, at my other job.  I was trying to be funny when I quoted you.  Comparing my life to yours and MF's, haha.  

I just had to edit my quote big time, my brain was out to lunch when I quoted you.  

Edited May 28, 2016 by Tacenda

[VideoGameJunkie]

This guy is in a Bishopric. There are even shady people in church leadership positions. Is also a high school math teacher. : http://ktla.com/2016/05/13/redlands-high-math-teacher-56-facing-charges-for-alleged-sexual-relationship-with-teen-student/

Edited May 29, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[rodheadlee]

10 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Or you could live in a safe country.

I can't imagine living in a place where you're afraid of going out at night. Or a place where I need to ball my fist around my keys as a method of defense. Or carry mace.

I respect that you think such things are necessary, but there are places on this planet where such fears are not necessary. 

On the otherhand, old men who grope, even approach with un-wanted physical contact, young girls (or boys) are something to fear and be aware of.  

In large countries it's city by city. You can't compare Sweden to the US, I can  find large sections of the US that are just as safe. As far as I'm concerned  young girls or boys are something to fear and be aware of so the feeling is mutual. You should keep your children under vetted adult supervision and you should never be alone with a child, even your own, or you could find yourself facing false charges 6 or 8 years down the road. You will be considered guilty until proven innocent and since you can't prove a negative your life will be over.

[VideoGameJunkie]

21 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

In large countries it's city by city. You can't compare Sweden to the US, I can  find large sections of the US that are just as safe. As far as I'm concerned  young girls or boys are something to fear and be aware of so the feeling is mutual. You should keep your children under vetted adult supervision and you should never be alone with a child, even your own, or you could find yourself facing false charges 6 or 8 years down the road. You will be considered guilty until proven innocent and since you can't prove a negative your life will be over.

Which sucks, because even if you are innocent, young people make up stories all the time and they would be believed by the police every time and it could ruin your life.

[bcuzbcuz]

6 hours ago, juliann said:

Does it though? What is the difference between uncomfortable and creep, other than one describes a feeling and one describes the act itself?  In what is described here it is the frequency more than the act itself. I think maybe we need to stop describing sexually aggressive behavior by how it makes people feel. It makes it far more difficult for the perp to make it the other guy's problem. 

Inappropriate actions, unwanted touching can be defined. Ones personal space can be defined. A clear and precise procedure can be outlined for any individual who wishes to invade another person's personal space. A person who violates these restrictions can be made aware of which actions caused the concern.  Repeated violations must result in punishment that fits. 

A man in a neighbouring ward, a "kindly old gent" who became active in working with young boys apparently engaged in totally unsuitable activites with the boys. The ward leadership removed him from his position, he was eventually excommunicted, but I heard that he got baptized again...with all sins forgiven....and that he began his inappropriate actions again. 

You're right, of course, that it is not just about how one feels about an action but the action itself. Sloppy thinking leads to terrible regulations.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No, at my other job.  I was trying to be funny when I quoted you.  Comparing my life to yours and MF's, haha.  

I just had to edit my quote big time, my brain was out to lunch when I quoted you.  

LOL I was trying to be funny too! I thought your "brushes with fame" in Utah story was funny!

[Meadowchik]

On 28/05/2016 at 7:15 AM, rodheadlee said:

Yeah, so I've been told, 3 times now. thank you.

Good thing I cannot post properly from my phone or I'd have done so before reading all replies and made a fourth! 

Thanks for your comments!

[Meadowchik]

21 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Or you could live in a safe country.

I can't imagine living in a place where you're afraid of going out at night. Or a place where I need to ball my fist around my keys as a method of defense. Or carry mace.

I respect that you think such things are necessary, but there are places on this planet where such fears are not necessary. 

On the otherhand, old men who grope, even approach with un-wanted physical contact, young girls (or boys) are something to fear and be aware of.  

Where would that be?

No country or town or even home is immune from danger and evil.

It's true that some places feel and are statistically safer, but that is only speaking in relative terms.  None of us want to be a statistic, being a victim in a tiny crime rate is small comfort.

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

In large countries it's city by city. You can't compare Sweden to the US, I can  find large sections of the US that are just as safe. As far as I'm concerned  young girls or boys are something to fear and be aware of so the feeling is mutual. You should keep your children under vetted adult supervision and you should never be alone with a child, even your own, or you could find yourself facing false charges 6 or 8 years down the road. You will be considered guilty until proven innocent and since you can't prove a negative your life will be over.

I understand and respect your decision to not be alone with children, it is an unfortunate byproduct of a fallen world that such concerns are necessary. However there is no way all parents, mother or father, can avoid being alone with a child of their own.  If, however, there is some history of outrageous accusations, that's another story.

[bcuzbcuz]

29 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Where would that be?

No country or town or even home is immune from danger and evil.

It's true that some places feel and are statistically safer, but that is only speaking in relative terms.  None of us want to be a statistic, being a victim in a tiny crime rate is small comfort.

My brother, who lives in the States (for more than fifty years) agrees with you and he views me as naive. I am male, tall and stocky which may give me a "false?" Sense of safety. I may have placed myself in unsafe situations a number of times. Despite your and my agreement that "no country or town is immune from danger and evil" I think it is wrong to let such fears define whether a place is safe or not.

My wife and I spent three weeks in Marrakech. We had a hotel room in the middle of the old town Medina. We spent every evening around the town square and often walked home after midnight. We asked an elderly man why the city felt so safe. He responded that their belief in Allah make it a cultural shame to cause stress or behave criminally to visitors to their city.

Havanna Cuba was equally safe, but there they have walking police patrols basically on every street corner.

Personally, I fear alcohol inbibing drivers more than I do criminals. In Sweden the BAC (blood alcohol concentration) is set at 0.02 and police patrols on Friday and Saturday nights (and Sunday morning) pull every vehicle aside for a mandatory breathalizer. Sweden has very few traffic deaths and a low percentage due to alcohol. Tough laws provide greater safety.

[Meadowchik]

24 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

My brother, who lives in the States (for more than fifty years) agrees with you and he views me as naive. I am male, tall and stocky which may give me a "false?" Sense of safety. I may have placed myself in unsafe situations a number of times. Despite your and my agreement that "no country or town is immune from danger and evil" I think it is wrong to let such fears define whether a place is safe or not.

My wife and I spent three weeks in Marrakech. We had a hotel room in the middle of the old town Medina. We spent every evening around the town square and often walked home after midnight. We asked an elderly man why the city felt so safe. He responded that their belief in Allah make it a cultural shame to cause stress or behave criminally to visitors to their city.

Havanna Cuba was equally safe, but there they have walking police patrols basically on every street corner.

Personally, I fear alcohol inbibing drivers more than I do criminals. In Sweden the BAC (blood alcohol concentration) is set at 0.02 and police patrols on Friday and Saturday nights (and Sunday morning) pull every vehicle aside for a mandatory breathalizer. Sweden has very few traffic deaths and a low percentage due to alcohol. Tough laws provide greater safety.

Yes, size and gender can make a difference.

Imagine, if you can, being a 15-year-old girl who is abnormally well-endowed.  Imagine that, in only two years time, you've gone from being a skinny stick to that, where you are gawked at whenever you're out in public. And this, in a pretty rural area.  This is my daughter's experience.

Or, imagine being short and never having a history of physical fighting, serious or for amusement and your neighbor who street-fought as a kid, is bigger and addicted to morphine, tells you he wants to kill you.  This is my husband's experience.

We explained the size difference to our bishop when discussing the neighbor problem.  He had been saying how in our situation he'd have them out the next day.  we asked how, he said he'd do it without laying a hand on them.  Then he talked about past experiences when he just stood up to harrassment by being intimidating himself, and the problem went away.  That's when we explained that it's not the same for us.  We're not six-foot-something like he is.  That's when a lightbulb seemed to go on in his head and the conversation seemed to go much better! 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I am 6 foot 5 1/2 and weigh 260 pounds. I've always been tall so I can't imagine what it's like to be intimidated by another's presence unless they have a weapon or are an NBA player.

[Meadowchik]

On 29/05/2016 at 7:43 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

I am 6 foot 5 1/2 and weigh 260 pounds. I've always been tall so I can't imagine what it's like to be intimidated by another's presence unless they have a weapon or are an NBA player.

I'm 5 foot 3 and have generally been blissfully oblivious to size of others bigger than me.  There was a big football player in highschool who I argued with in class several times and I remember a day he stood up abrubtly while still in his desk, presumably to scare me.  But I didn't flinch and kept right on disagreeing with him.  I guess I felt safe where I was.

It's the state of mind of a person that can be the scariest to me, personally.  I just don't have the benefit of being able to deter an attacker by virtue of my size.

[Yirgacheffe]

On 5/28/2016 at 0:55 PM, juliann said:

I have to wonder if part of the problem is the tendency to use neutral words like "uncomfortable" with these behaviors. It turns into how someone feels about the behavior instead of the behavior itself. Only the behavior should be described, "You are sexually harassing women" is a far different message than "you are making girls uncomfortable."  

.I remember being forced to kiss people, "give so and so a kiss goodbye" and I think that is a dangerous expectation to set up at such early ages no matter how innocent it is. I had an overly friendly older relative and still cringe at hearing "he is just friendly/loving." 

I've seen it play out in our family gatherings, (I don't really remember it as a child) mom or dad says "give grandma/grandpa, aunt/uncle a kiss good bye and the kid says "No!".  But most don't make the kids give a kiss, my MIL's response upon being refused a kiss has always been "that's okay, no one has to kiss someone if they don't feel like it".  Over all that is the reaction in both my and my DH's family's, I prefer it that way, no one should be expected to provide physical attention to another if they don't want to.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Yirgacheffe
Case?

[Yirgacheffe]

On 5/28/2016 at 1:20 PM, juliann said:

Does it though? What is the difference between uncomfortable and creep, other than one describes a feeling and one describes the act itself?  In what is described here it is the frequency more than the act itself. I think maybe we need to stop describing sexually aggressive behavior by how it makes people feel. It makes it far more difficult for the perp to make it the other guy's problem. 

Well for me, what makes me uncomfortable is creepy, and I get to call them on it and they have to stop it because it makes me uncomfortable

[thesometimesaint]

I'm 6'2 and 240 LBS. If I/anyone has to use my/their size to win an argument they've already lost the argument.

[Guest]

On May 26, 2016 at 9:27 AM, Meadowchik said:

My daughter and I were discussing this, about how sometimes people, females especially, may not feel permitted to defend themselves properly because of rules of politeness.

An example would be of a stranger starting up a conversation in a bus and then saying, "What, I don't get a hug??" When the bus reaches its stop.

No one, no female should ever feel obligated to hug a stranger or welcome advances.

As a super-friendly Mormon culture, are we teaching out children about proper safety boundaries, their own rights to refuse even the smallest banter or gesture?

Do your children know this? Do you?

Two things...

No man outside of family should not be asking for a hug.

Indeed all our children should be warned. 

Other than my Nanny, Mama, Sister and Granddaughters, I would never ask for a hug. Any others, I keep an arm length distance. With friends in and out of the of the Church, (Sisters), I never even attempt to give them a hug. If there is a death in the family, or some, horror event I will attempt to hug them, but even then only in the while my wife is with me and aware. When I was Chief of a very large department the same. When I retired and my two female assistants, I made sure I called over one or two employees to witness. Then I would also tell my wife...I don't hide her from such things. Even on Fadebook or this site and all others I take part in, My wife knows my name on that site and all others (which I use the same name on all sites) and she knows my password so that she can look in anytime she likes to see if she wishes. 

I once pointed this out in a Sunday School class that touched on how husband's should treat there wives. I told them what I do and suggested that either, Husband or Wife should do the same. I pointed out that no secrets should not exist tween spouses. A sister n my class walked out very angry and talking to herself about how I had no right to suggest such things. I never saw her in Sunday School again. I served as class teacher for 2 more years after, when I enquired as too her absence, found out she stopped attended all services. 

Back to the OP entirely, Sister you are right...strangers, friends or member...a man should never put a woman,on the spot and ask for a hug...of course family excluded. 

[Meadowchik]

22 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

I've seen it play out in our family gatherings, (I don't really remember it as a child) mom or dad says "give grandma/grandpa, aunt/uncle a kiss good bye and the kid says "No!".  But most don't make the kids give a kiss, my MIL's response upon being refused a kiss has always been "that's okay, no one has to kiss someone if they don't feel like it".  Over all that is the reaction in both my and my DH's family's, I prefer it that way, no one should be expected to provide physical attention to another if they don't want to.

Absolutely. Consent and understanding it starts at home and with family.  If a child knows they don't have to hug mom or dad or grandma or the baby, they are more likely to know they never have to go along with anyone else, either.  And they'll more likely learn the principle of respecting another's consent or lack of it. And unfortunately, the opposite is true.  Denying consent with our loved ones will confuse matters later on and elsewhere.

[Thinking]

On 5/26/2016 at 11:52 AM, mfbukowski said:

I agree.  I know of a kindly old gent who is a hugger, and everyone thinks it is cute.

I have noticed the only ones he hugs are young women, however.  If having a conversation, he will stand to their side and put his arm around him.  My daughters were uncomfortable with that and my wife was uncomfortable for them as well, and then and someone mentioned it to the bishop, who took him aside and let him know that some were uncomfortable with that.  He just shrugged it off and continues.  My daughters just move away from him.  

I honestly even wonder if he fully understands that it can bother some people, it seems that he just thinks he is being friendly

When I was a teenager, there was a man in my ward who would full frontal hug the women in the ward. The women were uncomfortable with the hugs and with saying anything to him directly. I think the bishop talked to him because he stopped hugging. He eventually quit coming to church too. He was creepy.

[Yirgacheffe]

57 minutes ago, Thinking said:

When I was a teenager, there was a man in my ward who would full frontal hug the women in the ward. The women were uncomfortable with the hugs and with saying anything to him directly. I think the bishop talked to him because he stopped hugging. He eventually quit coming to church too. He was creepy.

I think this is the point Meadowchik was making in the op, that  somehow many grown women have been raised to ignore their gut feeling of "creepy" and put up with inappropriate physical contact rather than make another uncomfortable, or cause a ripple in the congeniality of the group. 

[Meadowchik]

21 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

I think this is the point Meadowchik was making in the op, that  somehow many grown women have been raised to ignore their gut feeling of "creepy" and put up with inappropriate physical contact rather than make another uncomfortable, or cause a ripple in the congeniality of the group. 

Yes but also, in general I do think that women may have trouble rejecting aggression simply because we believe so much in kindness, we condition ourselves to be soft and sweet.  Can you imagine spitting in someone's eye, urinating on them, biting their tongue, or trying to poke out an eye? It's certainly unpleasant stuff, but so is sexual assault, rape, and murder.

It's important for me to be able to justify physical violence even as a method of self-defense because I've tried to become a non-violent person, in thought, speech, and action. One justification I use is that it can be better to stop a person from doing an evil against me, even better for them because actually trying and doing it is more soul-destroying than merely trying to do it.

And I bet that this is not a thought process unique to women, I'm sure many would-be pacifists have tried to wade through these waters.