The Elephant in the Livingroom, no, sorry, In the Kitchen

[bcuzbcuz]

A very interesting article about pre-Clovis inhabitation of Florida recently published in Science Advances is an eye opener. The article is the work of  Jessi J. Halligan, Michael R. Waters, Angelina Perrotti, Ivy J. Owens, Joshua M. Feinberg, Mark D. Bourne, Brendan Fenerty, Barbara Winsborough, David Carlson, Daniel C. Fisher, Thomas W. Stafford Jr and James S. Dunbar. The complete article can be read at:  http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/5/e1600375.full

Although the discovery was made a few years back, it was generally disregarded because the idea of people in the Americas, so early and at the same time as the ice age, was considered incorrect. Now the data has verified that the age of the find, bones, tools, and droppings, is 14,550 BP ( 12,500 BCE) it significantly pre-dates Clovis finds.

"Genetic studies of modern Native Americans and ancient human skeletons indicate that the initial peopling of the Americas occurred before the appearance of the Clovis complex, dated to ~13,000 calendar years before the present (cal yr B.P.) (1, 2), but this interpretation requires confirmation by empirical archaeological evidence. The archaeological record demonstrating that humans occupied the Americas between ~14,000 and 15,000 cal yr B.P. is still sparse because of a number of factors, most importantly site visibility and recognition. At present, pre-Clovis sites include Paisley Caves, Oregon (3); Schaefer and Hebior, Wisconsin (4); Monte Verde, Chile (5); Debra L. Friedkin, Texas (6); and others (7, 8). Here, we report our investigations at the Page-Ladson site, Florida, where artifacts dating to ~14,550 cal yr B.P. were found in a buried and well-dated stratified context. Page-Ladson is the first pre-Clovis site to be documented in the southeastern portion of North America and demonstrates that the earliest people to enter North America were exploring the Gulf Coastal Plain at the same time other areas of the continent were being populated. Proxy evidence from the sediments at Page-Ladson also indicate that humans coexisted with megafauna in the American Southeast for ~2000 years before the large mammals became extinct at ~12,600 cal yr B.P. "  

This graph of the site is very telling. (Ooops, I still haven't mastered the skill of posting graphs) It shows the dating of layers and the positions of finds within the layers. If you have the interest, you can find the graphs at the site posted above, they are both colourful and detailed. 

All this data pre-dates any of the Book of Mormon colonizations.

Edited May 14, 2016 by bcuzbcuz

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

A very interesting article about pre-Clovis inhabitation of Florida recently published in Science Advances is an eye opener. The article is the work of  Jessi J. Halligan, Michael R. Waters, Angelina Perrotti, Ivy J. Owens, Joshua M. Feinberg, Mark D. Bourne, Brendan Fenerty, Barbara Winsborough, David Carlson, Daniel C. Fisher, Thomas W. Stafford Jr and James S. Dunbar. The complete article can be read at:  http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/5/e1600375.full

Although the discovery was made a few years back, it was generally disregarded because the idea of people in the Americas, so early and at the same time as the ice age, was considered incorrect. Now the data has verified that the age of the find, bones, tools, and droppings, is 14,550 BP ( 12,500 BCE) it significantly pre-dates Clovis finds.

"Genetic studies of modern Native Americans and ancient human skeletons indicate that the initial peopling of the Americas occurred before the appearance of the Clovis complex, dated to ~13,000 calendar years before the present (cal yr B.P.) (1, 2), but this interpretation requires confirmation by empirical archaeological evidence. The archaeological record demonstrating that humans occupied the Americas between ~14,000 and 15,000 cal yr B.P. is still sparse because of a number of factors, most importantly site visibility and recognition. At present, pre-Clovis sites include Paisley Caves, Oregon (3); Schaefer and Hebior, Wisconsin (4); Monte Verde, Chile (5); Debra L. Friedkin, Texas (6); and others (7, 8). Here, we report our investigations at the Page-Ladson site, Florida, where artifacts dating to ~14,550 cal yr B.P. were found in a buried and well-dated stratified context. Page-Ladson is the first pre-Clovis site to be documented in the southeastern portion of North America and demonstrates that the earliest people to enter North America were exploring the Gulf Coastal Plain at the same time other areas of the continent were being populated. Proxy evidence from the sediments at Page-Ladson also indicate that humans coexisted with megafauna in the American Southeast for ~2000 years before the large mammals became extinct at ~12,600 cal yr B.P. "  

This graph of the site is very telling. (Ooops, I still haven't mastered the skill of posting graphs) It shows the dating of layers and the positions of finds within the layers. If you have the interest, you can find the graphs at the site posted above, they are both colourful and detailed. 

All this data pre-dates any of the Book of Mormon colonizations.

All fine and wonderful.  No reason to believe that when the Nephites or Jaredites came over that they came to a desolate, uninhabited by humans western hemisphere.  

[omni]

2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

All fine and wonderful.  No reason to believe that when the Nephites or Jaredites came over that they came to a desolate, uninhabited by humans western hemisphere.  

No reason?  Then why has that been the dominant view within Mormonism from its inception?

[cinepro]

14 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

All fine and wonderful.  No reason to believe that when the Nephites or Jaredites came over that they came to a desolate, uninhabited by humans western hemisphere.  

Miraculously, those finds even pre-date the Fall of Adam!

 

 

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, omni said:

No reason?  Then why has that been the dominant view within Mormonism from its inception?

The same reason evolution was not accepted.  Your point?

We see as children until further information is given, then the paradigm changes- as it has always been

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, omni said:

No reason?  Then why has that been the dominant view within Mormonism from its inception?

BECAUSE of the Jaredites I've always had the view that there may be other people here before. Does this not align with what has been written?

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

BECAUSE of the Jaredites I've always had the view that there may be other people here before. Does this not align with what has been written?

Yes it does. But others as well.  This topic has been well discussed here many times

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Miraculously, those finds even pre-date the Fall of Adam!

Where is the Fall of Adam referenced on your graph? The earliest event I can find is the Murder of Abel!

[bcuzbcuz]

37 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

All fine and wonderful.  No reason to believe that when the Nephites or Jaredites came over that they came to a desolate, uninhabited by humans western hemisphere.  

Your response simply reflects that you accept the new, revised introduction to the BoM. I was raised during the time that the introduction stated that the Americas were not populated before the Jaredites. It was also commonly held that "Lamanites" referred to the native aboriginals.

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Your response simply reflects that you accept the new, revised introduction to the BoM. I was raised during the time that the introduction stated that the Americas were not populated before the Jaredites. It was also commonly held that "Lamanites" referred to the native aboriginals.

I fully accept the idea that most LDS through history have believed to some effect that the Western Hemisphere had no humans before the brother of Jared came.  I also held to that belief at one time as well.  But I have come to change my view on that.  Not because of a revised introduction in the BOM.  But simply there is no reason to read the text that way.  When Lehi came to the Americas, there is no way he could know if there was some group of people living 500-1000 miles or more away from him.  How would he know that?  In fact the way the populations rise rapidly, I would say that he encountered people early on.  My views on the Noah flood have changed through time as well.  I see no reason to believe that the Noah flood killed everyone off the entire planet except 8 people.  Perhaps only 8 people survived from the civilization that Noah came from and to him that was the world but the world populations rebounds too fast for there to be just 8 people on the planet.   Humans do not reproduce like rabbits or bacteria and Noah and his group is no exception.

Edited May 14, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[ERMD]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Your response simply reflects that you accept the new, revised introduction to the BoM. I was raised during the time that the introduction stated that the Americas were not populated before the Jaredites. It was also commonly held that "Lamanites" referred to the native aboriginals.

The book itself never claims this.  The book is not at fault.  Someone at some time made an incorrect deduction.  

And?

I fail to see a salient point to this thread.

Edited May 14, 2016 by ERMD

[CV75]

26 minutes ago, ERMD said:

The book itself never claims this.  The book is not at fault.  Someone at some time made an incorrect deduction.  

And?

I fail to see a salient point to this thread.

 

 

 

[bcuzbcuz]

46 minutes ago, ERMD said:

The book itself never claims this.  The book is not at fault.  Someone at some time made an incorrect deduction.  

And?

I fail to see a salient point to this thread.

The salient point?? People were living in Florida more than 14,000 years ago. We have evidence of their tools, the coprolites and the cuts their tools left on the leg bones from mastadons. Did you read the article? It gets salient by the end of the first sentence.

Or you can read a few articles about Clovis populations.  

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

The salient point?? People were living in Florida more than 14,000 years ago. We have evidence of their tools, the coprolites and the cuts their tools left on the leg bones from mastadons. Did you read the article? It gets salient by the end of the first sentence.

Or you can read a few articles about Clovis populations.  

If we accept the dating to be correct, I still do not see a problem.  The Book of Mormon text for example does not demand that people were not living in Florida long before Lehi came.  

[UtahTexan]

Elephant?  lol.  This supports my belief...thank you for posting it.

[omni]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The same reason evolution was not accepted.  Your point?

We see as children until further information is given, then the paradigm changes- as it has always been

My point is that he stated there was "no reason" to believe there weren't others prior to the Jaredites.  Clearly from a Mirmon viewpoint there are many reasons to believe the Jaredites were the first inhabitants of the Americas.

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

A very interesting article about pre-Clovis inhabitation of Florida recently published in Science Advances is an eye opener. The article is the work of  Jessi J. Halligan, Michael R. Waters, Angelina Perrotti, Ivy J. Owens, Joshua M. Feinberg, Mark D. Bourne, Brendan Fenerty, Barbara Winsborough, David Carlson, Daniel C. Fisher, Thomas W. Stafford Jr and James S. Dunbar. The complete article can be read at:  http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/5/e1600375.full

Although the discovery was made a few years back, it was generally disregarded because the idea of people in the Americas, so early and at the same time as the ice age, was considered incorrect. Now the data has verified that the age of the find, bones, tools, and droppings, is 14,550 BP ( 12,500 BCE) it significantly pre-dates Clovis finds.

"Genetic studies of modern Native Americans and ancient human skeletons indicate that the initial peopling of the Americas occurred before the appearance of the Clovis complex, dated to ~13,000 calendar years before the present (cal yr B.P.) (1, 2), but this interpretation requires confirmation by empirical archaeological evidence. The archaeological record demonstrating that humans occupied the Americas between ~14,000 and 15,000 cal yr B.P. is still sparse because of a number of factors, most importantly site visibility and recognition. At present, pre-Clovis sites include Paisley Caves, Oregon (3); Schaefer and Hebior, Wisconsin (4); Monte Verde, Chile (5); Debra L. Friedkin, Texas (6); and others (7, 8). Here, we report our investigations at the Page-Ladson site, Florida, where artifacts dating to ~14,550 cal yr B.P. were found in a buried and well-dated stratified context. Page-Ladson is the first pre-Clovis site to be documented in the southeastern portion of North America and demonstrates that the earliest people to enter North America were exploring the Gulf Coastal Plain at the same time other areas of the continent were being populated. Proxy evidence from the sediments at Page-Ladson also indicate that humans coexisted with megafauna in the American Southeast for ~2000 years before the large mammals became extinct at ~12,600 cal yr B.P. "  

This graph of the site is very telling. (Ooops, I still haven't mastered the skill of posting graphs) It shows the dating of layers and the positions of finds within the layers. If you have the interest, you can find the graphs at the site posted above, they are both colourful and detailed. 

All this data pre-dates any of the Book of Mormon colonizations.

Actually this is old news bcbc. Dennis Stanford, the head archaeologist at the Smithsonian dated a mammoth find at about 14,000 yrs BP. Fisherman fishing 100 mi off the coast of SC brought up the mammoth skull along with a beautiful Clovis spear point/tool. Assuming the two are related that puts man out on the continental shelf during the last ice age. In addition he is directing some excavations around the Chesapeake Bay which date back to 23,000 - 24,000 BP. Ok that kinda puts a damper on the Bering Strait model of the peopling of the Americas across the Bering Strait 23,000 yrs BP.

[omni]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

BECAUSE of the Jaredites I've always had the view that there may be other people here before. Does this not align with what has been written?

If it does, then it was written in such a way as to be so incredibly ambiguous that it took decades of scientific consensus on the subject before the Church officially recognized it as a possibility.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, omni said:

If it does, then it was written in such a way as to be so incredibly ambiguous that it took decades of scientific consensus on the subject before the Church officially recognized it as a possibility.

Decades from when? I joined the Church in 1982 and from the day I first got my hands on a BoM I always thought the Jaredites were the Olemec. Now, do you know anyone who thinks the Olemec were the first Americans?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, omni said:

My point is that he stated there was "no reason" to believe there weren't others prior to the Jaredites.  Clearly from a Mirmon viewpoint there are many reasons to believe the Jaredites were the first inhabitants of the Americas.

 

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The same reason evolution was not accepted.  Your point?

We see as children until further information is given, then the paradigm changes- as it has always been

Yes I gave you the same reply twice because you made the same statement twice without saying anything else.

What some Mormons used to believe is irrelevant.  News flash: Mormons used to also practice polygamy!!

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, omni said:

If it does, then it was written in such a way as to be so incredibly ambiguous that it took decades of scientific consensus on the subject before the Church officially recognized it as a possibility.

And the church still does not teach nuclear physics!!!   Can you believe it???

I have never once had a sunday school class on chemistry either!  We do not teach science in sunday school.  What a surprise!

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Decades from when? I joined the Church in 1982 and from the day I first got my hands on a BoM I always thought the Jaredites were the Olemec. Now, do you know anyone who thinks the Olemec were the first Americans?

And the very first edition of the BOM I saw had pictures of the Mayan temples all through it.

The painted art work looked like Mayan temples.  Now we say that the Nephites lived among the Maya and everyone is shocked.

That implication was clearly there for years and years- I fail to see why it is even noteworthy.  Some also believe in a world wide flood- good for them.  I never have- so what difference does that make in getting us closer to Christ??

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

Miraculously, those finds even pre-date the Fall of Adam!

 

 

Clearly they were soulless abominations like the old Jewish story of the golem.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Decades from when? I joined the Church in 1982 and from the day I first got my hands on a BoM I always thought the Jaredites were the Olemec. Now, do you know anyone who thinks the Olemec were the first Americans?

Elder Holland and Joseph Smith?

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And the church still does not teach nuclear physics!!!   Can you believe it???

I have never once had a sunday school class on chemistry either!  We do not teach science in sunday school.  What a surprise!

Maybe that's for the best, all things considered.