People leaving the church: Is it a "patty-cake" lack of conviction (Holland) or "more complicated than that" (Uchtdorf)?

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, consiglieri said:

 

 

Why is Elder Holland so upset about people leaving the Church when in Dallas he said we are adding double-digit stakes every week?

 

 

 

Bingo!!  Let's give this Irish man a green beer and hope he mellows out.  Or at least makes up his mind.

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/STAKE-HANDOUT.pdf

I hope this is true.  Just last week my SP come up to me and asked me how I was doing.  But never asks about my faith crisis.  He plain old doesn't want to talk about it.  I'd love to talk to him about it, but it's totally a button'd up topic.  When he sees this hopefully he won't make the same mistake with someone else.  And hopefully he won't take me as being a patty cake baker's man joke.  

Who did the handout?  What do you mean by hoping this is true?

[Guest]

We should always try to mindful and understanding of those who have genuine concerns, or bruised feelings. We are a Chruch who believes and teaches with great emphasis the doctrines of choice and free will. Even if those who once loved us as a Church or as brothers and sisters wish to break those one strong bonds of affection. In so doing, certainly some will speak of kindness, while others are offended, as each bring their personal views to this issue. As far back as Prophets and Apostles go, and I speak from Adam until today...many believe that every word and every attitude is revelation from God's mouth to their ears. This of course is not true, from Adam until today we have records of their words, their tempers, their personal views and their human weaknesses, which are like our own. We are all mortal, and each of us have known moments when we allowed and God allowed us to speak more of his words than our own. Then there are other times when more of our words and prejudice have come through, dispite the Spirit trying to entice us and appeal to our better Angels. 

I am presently tasked with finding members who seldom if ever come to Church anymore, and to do what I can to invite them back, or see if they no longer wish to be members. It is my wish not to bring in any baggage into each home, nor to pass judgement. I say it is my wish to do so, but I know I am just a mortal man and so unacquainted with things of Eternity. I have many beliefs of what I know from scripture, but know I do not know all, and I am so arrogant to believe I know what is in the mind of others. 

As of late though, Elder Holland has brought something back to the Church that many have felt over a number of decades...that being passion and great passion in his Conference talks. Others are more calm and follow closely well scripted addresses, until the end of their address when they bear withness of the Saviour, only then allowing emotion to creep in. Each style of delivery has advantages, but I will take passion over TelePrompTer any day. Passion gives a better measure of the man, the message and the motive. 

Sadly, because of Elder Holland's passion, he seems to be becoming a target. Especially in and on sites who complain about how boring our meetings and Conferences are (and I speak of critics from outside the Church) who don't want anyone or anything to invite others to sit up and take notice. Also, to address another aspect of the thread, it is growing lack of civility, both outside and inside each General Conference. I see little difference between those yelling outside, holding signs and dragging BoM's on a rope around on the sidewalk, than the growing number of those disrupting Conference during meetings. Either way and in all ways, God grant all the wisdom to act correctly in every way or condition. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Bingo!!  Let's give this Irish man a green beer and hope he mellows out.  Or at least makes up his mind.

Seriously?  If someone believes the Church is the true and living church in which God is pleased and a major part of how God intends to give people the opportunity to have eternal joy, you can't see it is perfectly consistent to be frustrated by people leaving and celebrating when it appears others are becoming committed or increasing their commitment?

[Jeanne]

5 hours ago, canard78 said:

I completely emphathise with everything you've said here.

I gripped on to the handrail of "the boat" for about a year longer than I would otherwise have done because I wanted to support the good people of the branch I was in. The difference for me was that my wife had left several years earlier, so I didn't need to stay for her sake. But it was a long, painful and meaningful process.

I, too, very much empathize.  It was a heartbreaking decision as the reason that I became activated again and get back into the church was to be sealed to my husband.  My integrity told me that I could keep that hope as all those shelves fell.  I listened to the talk here and wished that I had not.  I am not a stupid woman.  How dare I leave.  How dare I have that courage.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

Who did the handout?  What do you mean by hoping this is true?

Hoping it's true that all the SP's will receive them. DBMormon aka Bill, said it was leaked somehow.  So maybe I should have put that caveat.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Seriously?  If someone believes the Church is the true and living church in which God is pleased and a major part of how God intends to give people the opportunity to have eternal joy, you can't see it is perfectly consistent to be frustrated by people leaving and celebrating when it appears others are becoming committed or increasing their commitment?

Calm, there is joy outside the church.  Really.  No one has a right to condemn that.  As a leader in any church, it is distasteful.  I am not saying that that doesn't work both ways, but this is one man who takes  the church backwards.

[Rain]

 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/STAKE-HANDOUT.pdf

I hope this is true.  Just last week my SP come up to me and asked me how I was doing.  But never asks about my faith crisis.  He plain old doesn't want to talk about it.  I'd love to talk to him about it, but it's totally a button'd up topic.  When he sees this hopefully he won't make the same mistake with someone else.  And hopefully he won't take me as being a patty cake baker's man joke.  

I haven't read that because I am on my phone and don't like to download extra things.  Will try to remember to look later. 

I'm wondering if it was an appropriate time to ask about your crises? Perhaps he was asking how you were doing because he is checking if you need to talk farther with him at a more appropriate time? 

The more I learn about communication the more I learn how poorly most are in communicating.  Even people who are very good at communicating don't understand each other 100% because we all bring past experience to the table which colors our communication.

I remember one time when my sister asked me a heartfelt question.  I took a breath and thought how to answer her. She understood in an entirely different way (in part because of her martial circumstances) and was so upset that she couldn't listen to me try to explain where I meant different than she understood.  She was filed with pain that wouldn't let her listen. I had to wait for months before she was ready to talk again.  

Imagine being that stake president and having dozens of conversations like this. Perhaps he is just waiting for you to be ready. Just letting you know the door is open when you are ready. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Rain

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, canard78 said:

I think the near-hysterical response from the audience is just as troubling. Group laughter and mockery at the religious decisions of others... I'm sure I've seen that mentioned elsewhere... in a dream... the mockers were in a big building of some sort... nope sorry, it escapes me.

Having said that, it sounds like there are a few gasps of shock in there too.

Makes one wonder about Lehi's dream..who is laughing at who?

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I just listened to Elfer Hollands entire address an found it absolutely splendid. In case some here only listened to the part where the people laughed after Elder Holland lovingly (yes I said lovingly) said he was angry at those who leave the Church and forfeit its blessings, they need to know there were other moments of laughter during the address. And that laughter was simply appropriate to the spirit and style of delivery of his address which was delivered as if Giben at a large but still intimate family gathering. Please excuse my French, but I think those are taking offense at  apostle Holland's remarks are missing the mark or are being deliberately unfair. And for those who no longer believe, why do you hang around this board and subject yourselves to things in which you find constant reason to be outraged? Why not move on with your lives and focus on those things which you find uplifting and positive? Could it be the reason why you don't move on is because in your heart of hearts you still believe the Church is true?

Because..we matter.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

32 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

I haven't read that because I am on my phone and don't like to download extra thing.  Well try to remember to look later. 

I'm wondering if it was an appropriate time to ask about your crises? Perhaps he was asking how you were doing because he is checking if you need to talk father with him at a more appropriate time? 

The more I learn about communication the more I learn how poorly most are in communicating.  Even people who are very good at communicating don't understand each other 100% because we all bring past experience to the table which colors our communication.

I remember one time when my sister asked me a heartfelt question.  I took a breath and thought how to answer her. She understood in an entirely different way (in part because of her martial circumstances) and was so upset that she couldn't listen to me try to explain where I meant different than she understood.  She was filed with pain that wouldn't let her listen. I had to wait for months before she was ready to talk again.  

Imagine being that stake president and having dozens of conversations like this. Perhaps he is just waiting for you to be ready. Just letting you know the door is open when you are ready. 

I've waited years now, it's been a hush, hush thing.  In an email years ago, I told him, my bishop at the time, that I had run into information that made me struggle to believe in the church and told him I'd read "In Sacred Loneliness", I was responding to coming to a decision that I didn't want a Primary teacher calling.  He never asked to talk about it.  Avoided it like the plague.  Even had an entire Sacrament Meeting devoted to Joseph Smith and told my son that I needed to pay attention to Sacrament meeting that day.  Maybe my son had had a meeting earlier, can't remember now, but thought it really strange.  

Just wish he would have opened up with me, and just let me talk it out and not keep it like the elephant in the room.  Maybe he does want to talk now, we'll see, and maybe you're right, we were in the church hallway and people were nearby and couldn't really talk about things.  But there's always email and he has mine!     

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Why are Mormons so afraid of questions?

And this late-breaking news just in!

The Urban Dictionary comes to Elder Holland's rescue to help us understand what he really meant.

 

It doesn't get any richer than this, folks!

I'm not afraid of questions or their answers. What I object to is your cavalier response that all ex-members must have left for substantive reasons. I've known people to leave the Church when we changed the names of the Church magazines. I've known people who left when we went to block meetings. I've known people who left because someone said something unkind to them. I've known a few that just lost interest. I've even known a few that left over deep theological differences.

Also bear in mind that we don't want anyone to leave. The simple fact is that they do, but overall we are gaining in  membership.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/STAKE-HANDOUT.pdf

I hope this is true.  Just last week my SP come up to me and asked me how I was doing.  But never asks about my faith crisis.  He plain old doesn't want to talk about it.  I'd love to talk to him about it, but it's totally a button'd up topic.  When he sees this hopefully he won't make the same mistake with someone else.  And hopefully he won't take me as being a patty cake baker's man joke.  

Like Rain, I was wondering if his question was his way of checking on your faith crisis-not to talk about it there in the hallway but to give you an opening so you could let him know if you needed to come see him. 

Last week my sister put up two Facebook memes that both said that she wished that people would know that she wasn't really fine when she said she was. This annoyed me because we had had a conversation last week where I told her I knew she was struggling and that it was ok. She had replied that, no, she really was fine. 

But, I reached out to her again and said that it sounded like she had had a hard night and asked what could I do to help. 

Again she responded with "thanks, but I'm good."  This time I called her on it and asked point blank what the memes were about if she was good. She answered that she was stressed about something, and we went on to have a long conversation about it. 

And all this was with a sister that I have a really good relationship with!  

Sometimes we know what we need, but we make it practically impossible for people to help. We, probably subconsciously, seem to want people to jump thru hoops before we let them in, and then when they don't (because they don't know which hoops to jump thru) we feel like they must not care.

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like Rain, I was wondering if his question was his way of checking on your faith crisis-not to talk about it there in the hallway but to give you an opening so you could let him know if you needed to come see him. 

Last week my sister put up two Facebook memes that both said that she wished that people would know that she wasn't really fine when she said she was. This annoyed me because we had had a conversation last week where I told her I knew she was struggling and that it was ok. She had replied that, no, she really was fine. 

But, I reached out to her again and said that it sounded like she had had a hard night and asked what could I do to help. 

Again she responded with "thanks, but I'm good."  This time I called her on it and asked point blank what the memes were about if she was good. She answered that she was stressed about something, and we went on to have a long conversation about it. 

And all this was with a sister that I have a really good relationship with!  

Sometimes we know what we need, but we make it practically impossible for people to help. We, probably subconsciously, seem to want people to jump thru hoops before we let them in, and then when they don't (because they don't know which hoops to jump thru) we feel like they must not care.

I wish you were right Bluebell, and maybe you are.  But an email back would have been nice.  He did ask to speak in his office years ago, when I first mentioned I was struggling and couldn't be a Primary teacher.  It was then that I told him I'd read about JS's wives etc.  I received zero emails after that, and he would talk to me occasionally but it was about my sons and basketball.  He's into sports, baseball and basketball in particular.  And he has been their coach at times.  So it was casual conversation about them, never about what I was going through.  So IMO, it was him that couldn't talk about it.  In fact it made me feel like I was bad for even reading material like "In Sacred Loneliness".  For years I've felt like I was at fault.  But more and more, with the essays etc.  I feel exonerated.  

I just have never really gone to the bishop for things.  In fact never.  So maybe I should have been the one to go to him and talk about my doubts face to face.  But it would have been nice for him to bring it up.  But like I told Rain, he did have a Sac. Mtg. to help me.  But it didn't.    

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wish you were right Bluebell, and maybe you are.  But an email back would have been nice.  He did ask to speak in his office years ago, when I first mentioned I was struggling and couldn't be a Primary teacher.  It was then that I told him I'd read about JS's wives etc.  I received zero emails after that, and he would talk to me occasionally but it was about my sons and basketball.  He's into sports, baseball and basketball in particular.  And he has been their coach at times.  So it was casual conversation about them, never about what I was going through.  So IMO, it was him that couldn't talk about it.  In fact it made me feel like I was bad for even reading material like "In Sacred Loneliness".  For years I've felt like I was at fault.  But more and more, with the essays etc.  I feel exonerated.  

I just have never really gone to the bishop for things.  In fact never.  So maybe I should have been the one to go to him and talk about my doubts face to face.  But it would have been nice for him to bring it up.  But like I told Rain, he did have a Sac. Mtg. to help me.  But it didn't.    

It still took great courage in an email.  Give yourself umpteen points for that because it is hard.  I think what you were looking for and may have made all the difference, is to be validated..feel heard.  Hugs to you.

[Scott Lloyd]

I see the Uchtdorf talk quoted in the OP cited quite often in an effort to justify or validate loss of faith and departure from the Church of Jesus Christ.

Of those who do so, I wonder how many have given much attention to a sermon President Uchtdorf gave at a later general conference titled "Be Not Afraid, Only Believe."

To me, the message seems very similar, though expressed in different terms, to the talk cited in the OP that Elder Holland gave.

I include a quotation from it in my sig line, but here is a bit longer excerpt (I have further commentary after the quote):

 

Quote

 

I don’t know if it was easy for Daniel to be a believer in such an environment. Some people are blessed with a believing heart—for them, faith seems to come as a gift from heaven. But I imagine that Daniel was like many of us who have to work for our testimonies. I’m confident that Daniel spent many hours on his knees praying, laying his questions and fears on the altar of faith, and waiting upon the Lord for understanding and wisdom.

And the Lord did bless Daniel. Though his faith was challenged and ridiculed, he stayed true to what he knew by his own experience to be right.

Daniel believed. Daniel did not doubt.

And then one night, King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream that troubled his mind. He assembled his team of scholars and counselors and demanded that they describe the dream to him and also reveal the meaning of it.

Of course, they could not. “No one can do what you ask,” they pleaded. But this only made Nebuchadnezzar more furious, and he commanded that all the wise men, magicians, astrologers, and counselors be cut in pieces—including Daniel and the other young students from Israel.

You who are familiar with the book of Daniel know what happened next. Daniel asked Nebuchadnezzar for a little extra time, and he and his faithful companions went to the source of their faith and moral strength. They prayed to God and asked for divine help at this crucial moment in their lives. And “then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a … vision.”³

Daniel, the young boy from a conquered nation—who had been bullied and persecuted for believing in his strange religion—went before the king and revealed to him the dream and its interpretation.

From that day on, as a direct result of his faithfulness to God, Daniel became a trusted counselor to the king, renowned for his wisdom in all of Babylon.

The boy who believed and lived his faith had become a man of God. A prophet. A prince of righteousness.⁴

Are We like Daniel?

To all of us who bear the holy priesthood of God, I ask, are we like Daniel?

Do we stand loyal to God?

Do we practice what we preach, or are we Sunday Christians only?

Do our daily actions reflect clearly what we claim to believe?

Do we help “the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted”?⁵

Do we just talk the talk, or do we enthusiastically walk the walk?

Brethren, we have been given much. We have been taught the divine truths of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. We have been entrusted with priesthood authority to help our fellowmen and build up God’s kingdom on earth. We live in a time of great outpouring of spiritual power. We have the fulness of truth. We have priesthood keys to seal on earth and in heaven. Sacred scriptures and teachings of living prophets and apostles are available as never before.

My dear friends, let us not take these things lightly. With these blessings and privileges come great responsibilities and obligations. Let us rise up to them.

The ancient city of Babylon is in ruins. Its splendor is long gone. But Babylon’s worldliness and wickedness live on. Now it falls to us to live as believers in a world of disbelief. The challenge is ours to daily practice the principles of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and to live true to God’s commandments. We will have to stay calm under peer pressure, not be impressed by popular trends or false prophets, disregard the ridicule of the ungodly, resist the temptations of the evil one, and overcome our own laziness.

Just think about it. How much easier would it have been for Daniel to simply go along with the ways of Babylon? He could have set aside the restrictive code of conduct God had given the children of Israel. He could have feasted on the rich foods provided by the king and indulged in the worldly pleasures of the natural man. He would have avoided ridicule.

He would have been popular.

He would have fit in.

His path might have been much less complicated.

That is, of course, until the day when the king demanded an interpretation of his dream. Then Daniel would have found that he, like the rest of Babylon’s “wise men,” had lost his connection to the true source of light and wisdom.

Daniel passed his test. Ours still continues.

The Courage to Believe

Satan, our adversary, wants us to fail. He spreads lies as part of his effort to destroy our belief. He slyly suggests that the doubter, the skeptic, the cynic is sophisticated and intelligent, while those who have faith in God and His miracles are naive, blind, or brainwashed. Satan will advocate that it is cool to doubt spiritual gifts and the teachings of true prophets.

I wish I could help everyone to understand this one simple fact: we believe in God because of things we know with our heart and mind, not because of things we do not know.  Our spiritual experiences are sometimes too sacred to explain in worldly terms, but that doesn’t mean they are not real.

Heavenly Father has prepared for His children a spiritual feast, offering every kind of exquisite food imaginable—and yet, instead of enjoying these spiritual gifts, the cynics content themselves with observing from a distance, sipping from their cups of skepticism, doubt, and disrespect.

Why would anyone walk through life satisfied with the light from the candle of their own understanding when, by reaching out to our Heavenly Father, they could experience the bright sun of spiritual knowledge that would expand their minds with wisdom and fill their souls with joy?

When you and I talk to people about faith and belief, don’t we often hear, “I wish I could believe the way you do”?

Implied in such a statement is another of Satan’s deceptions: that belief is available to some people but not to others. There is no magic to belief. But wanting to believe is the necessary first step! God is no respecter of persons.⁶ He is your Father. He wants to speak to you. However, it requires a little scientific curiosity—it requires an experiment upon the word of God—and the exercise of a “particle of faith.”⁷ It also takes a little humility. And it requires an open heart and an open mind. It requires seeking, in the full meaning of the word. And, perhaps hardest of all, it requires being patient and waiting upon the Lord.

If we make no effort to believe, we are like the man who unplugs a spotlight and then blames the spotlight for not giving any light.

Recently I was surprised and saddened to hear of an Aaronic Priesthood bearer who seemed to take pride in the fact that he had distanced himself from God. He said, “If God reveals Himself to me, then I will believe. Until then, I will find the truth relying on my own understanding and intellect to light the way before me.”

I don’t know this young man’s heart, but I couldn’t help but feel terribly sorry for him. How easily he rejected the gifts the Lord was offering him. This young man had unplugged the spotlight and then seemed self-satisfied in his clever observation that there was no light.

Unfortunately, this seems to be quite a popular attitude today. If we can put the burden of proof on God, we think we can excuse ourselves from taking God’s commandments seriously and from taking responsibility for our relationship with our Heavenly Father.

Brethren, let me be clear: there is nothing noble or impressive about being cynical. Skepticism is easy—anyone can do it. It is the faithful life that requires moral strength, dedication, and courage. Those who hold fast to faith are far more impressive than those who give in to doubt when mysterious questions or concerns arise.

 

 

 

 

(Emphasis mine)

So, to those who feel that Elder Holland was contradicting President Uchtdorf, I would ask: Do you also think that President Uchtdorf is contradicting President Uchtdorf?

Or is it that the matter is more nuanced than you have been inclined to believe? That there could, for instance, be a different frame of reference between President Uchtdorf's talk and Elder Holland's talk? Or, for that matter, a different frame of reference between President Uchtdorf's first talk and his second talk?

Finally, I will agree with Russell that those who use the Runnells letter as the convenient field manual for their unbelief don't show much evidence of any deep thought or rigorous study pertaining to the Church. And that those who have allowed themselves to be easily swayed thereby are not giving evidence of much "courage to believe."

Edited April 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It still took great courage in an email.  Give yourself umpteen points for that because it is hard.  I think what you were looking for and may have made all the difference, is to be validated..feel heard.  Hugs to you.

Oh boy, you nailed it Jeanne, thank you.  I did feel like a bad seed for awhile.  This board literally saved my life...well, it got close.  That's why statements like Elder Holland's comes off terrible to people like me.   

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Oh pleezzze. Mounting a 40 million dollar campaign to take away gays civil rights. Not letting children being baptized for the sole reason that their parents are apostate gays. Do they name call couples not married apoststes and prevent their children from being baptized?  You really don't get a message loud and clear that gays are not welcome?  Not allowing scout leaders that are gay.   This all goes WAY beyond how the church treats others in sin. The church may have always viewed homosexual relations as sin but the church has launched a full scale attack on gays and their families.  Do you seriously not see how the church treats gays?  

do you have any doctrinal proof that the church will exist in the next life?  

This is all a bit over the top, california.  Wouldn't a more measured and accurate account of the LDS position be better here?

[CV75]

5 hours ago, canard78 said:

What I meant was that the tone of the church has changed. The conference after Tom Phillips' lame attempt to take the church to court over accusations of fraud had a different tone to it, especially from Elder Holland. There's been lots of "stay in the boat" talk in the last couple of years and a doubling down on certain positions and policies.

So there was a lot of "get off the boat" talk before? I'm not following...

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm not feeling any love, empathy, or understanding at all from Elder Holland.  Sorry.

Some personalities rub me the wrong way, too but I overlook it and don't let it get between me and the Lord. And over the years it gets better! Why have you made your feelings for Elder Holland the touchstone for your your membership in the Church? Aren't there plenty of other Church leaders who rub you the right way? The Spirit will guide you to the messages you need (see Elder Hale's talk).

Edited April 30, 2016 by CV75

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Pa Pa said:

We should always try to mindful and understanding of those who have genuine concerns, or bruised feelings. We are a Chruch who believes and teaches with great emphasis the doctrines of choice and free will. Even if those who once loved us as a Church or as brothers and sisters wish to break those one strong bonds of affection. In so doing, certainly some will speak of kindness, while others are offended, as each bring their personal views to this issue. As far back as Prophets and Apostles go, and I speak from Adam until today...many believe that every word and every attitude is revelation from God's mouth to their ears. This of course is not true, from Adam until today we have records of their words, their tempers, their personal views and their human weaknesses, which are like our own. We are all mortal, and each of us have known moments when we allowed and God allowed us to speak more of his words than our own. Then there are other times when more of our words and prejudice have come through, dispite the Spirit trying to entice us and appeal to our better Angels. 

I am presently tasked with finding members who seldom if ever come to Church anymore, and to do what I can to invite them back, or see if they no longer wish to be members. It is my wish not to bring in any baggage into each home, nor to pass judgement. I say it is my wish to do so, but I know I am just a mortal man and so unacquainted with things of Eternity. I have many beliefs of what I know from scripture, but know I do not know all, and I am so arrogant to believe I know what is in the mind of others. 

As of late though, Elder Holland has brought something back to the Church that many have felt over a number of decades...that being passion and great passion in his Conference talks. Others are more calm and follow closely well scripted addresses, until the end of their address when they bear withness of the Saviour, only then allowing emotion to creep in. Each style of delivery has advantages, but I will take passion over TelePrompTer any day. Passion gives a better measure of the man, the message and the motive. 

Sadly, because of Elder Holland's passion, he seems to be becoming a target. Especially in and on sites who complain about how boring our meetings and Conferences are (and I speak of critics from outside the Church) who don't want anyone or anything to invite others to sit up and take notice. Also, to address another aspect of the thread, it is growing lack of civility, both outside and inside each General Conference. I see little difference between those yelling outside, holding signs and dragging BoM's on a rope around on the sidewalk, than the growing number of those disrupting Conference during meetings. Either way and in all ways, God grant all the wisdom to act correctly in every way or condition. 

I appreciate where you're coming from, but wish his passion would have been less negative.  He can't know each individual, and should have at least made it clear that he wasn't talking about the majority or many, in the church.  As you and others know, it's usually the ones that have been the most faithful that are hurt the most.  And who wouldn't if you've lived your life for the church.  He has done the same, he loves the church.  I hope it never happens to him.  Because even those that thought they had spiritual witnesses, leave.  

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Bingo!!  Let's give this Irish man a green beer and hope he mellows out.  Or at least makes up his mind.

[deleted]

See instead:

Posted 3 minutes ago (edited)

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by CV75

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I appreciate where you're coming from, but wish his passion would have been less negative.  He can't know each individual, and should have at least made it clear that he wasn't talking about the majority or many, in the church.  As you and others know, it's usually the ones that have been the most faithful that are hurt the most.  And who wouldn't if you've lived your life for the church.  He has done the same, he loves the church.  I hope it never happens to him.  Because even those that thought they had spiritual witnesses, leave.  

Living one's for the Church is where the problem lies, we should be living for Christ. The Church is a lighthouse to help us not make a shipwreck of our ourselves and faith, Christ is the pure light to keep us of making a shipwreck of our souls. This is not unique of our Church, but instead of every Christian Church. Too many have their fixed on the wrong thing and never see the clift right in front of them. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, rockpond said:

Yes... and with every attempt they make to circle, I feel less and less welcome in the church.  If they continue the current trajectory it will reach the point where what I am doing for the sake of my family will no longer be worth the cost.  So they will obviously do what they want but the cost will be me, and my family, and the generations thereafter.  

 

Why do you assume that your family would follow you out of the Church, if it came to that? Don't they have their own independent testimonies? Do they rely on you to do their thinking for them?

I've seen you mention your family in this context before and, for one not privy to your circumstances, it almost seems as though you are holding them hostage in an effort to make the Church as a whole change its stance to conform to your views.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[california boy]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This is all a bit over the top, california.  Wouldn't a more measured and accurate account of the LDS position be better here?

Of course it is a bit over the top. But sadly true. Carbon diovide asked me How has the church become hostile to you.  I answered the question. Are you not interested in how those affected by the actions of the church feel about some of the aggression towards them have been?  Just how would you have reacted if the church targeted you the way the church has targeted them?  Should I just pretend none of this happened.  Members of the church must surely know how the church is viewed outside the wasach corridor  one could hardly call the church welcoming to gays.   Actions speak louder than words. 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

Living one's for the Church is where the problem lies, we should be living for Christ. The Church is a lighthouse to help us not make a shipwreck of our ourselves and faith, Christ is the pure light to keep us of making a shipwreck of our souls. This is not unique of our Church, but instead of every Christian Church. Too many have their fixed on the wrong thing and never see the clift right in front of them. 

Well, tell that to Elder Holland.  Listen again, to the clip or the whole thing.