People leaving the church: Is it a "patty-cake" lack of conviction (Holland) or "more complicated than that" (Uchtdorf)?

[Calm]

The above post is not to suggest I think flimsy reasons are rampant or rare.  I have no clue.  I think one would need to know someone very well and have them share their experience over time to be able to make that judgment and that hasn't happened in huge numbers for me.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Calm

[JulieM]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have in one case..in a sense.  It was based on a deep need to belong, so in that sense not flimsy, but since as soon as she left being surrounded by LDS she changed to what the group she was then with was most comfortable with, one could define her choices for both joining and leaving as flimsy.

Sorry, but I disagree that "a deep need to belong" is a flimsy reason to either join the church or decide to leave.  I honestly just believe it's not up to us to judge the reasons people make these decisions as they are very personal and varied.  We have no idea what emotions and feelings entered into either decision.

I really do not like the way this was presented and then laughed about.  It just feels very wrong to me and I'd honestly never laugh at someone else's pain even if I disagreed with their decisions and conclusions.

---Edited to add that I hadn't seen your last post right above this one when I posted this.  I completely agree with what you stated, Calm.

Edited April 30, 2016 by JulieM

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Then go with what Elder Uchtdorf said.

I have and I am.  Can you understand how it is made difficult when a man I am trying to sustain as an apostle makes a statement like Elder Holland?

[consiglieri]

24 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

That is perhaps the most asinine question to ask. 

Why are Mormons so afraid of questions?

And this late-breaking news just in!

The Urban Dictionary comes to Elder Holland's rescue to help us understand what he really meant.

Quote

"Taffy Pull"--A large group of self-absorbed people gathering for the purpose of patting themselves on the back, telling the world how great they are, . . .

 

 

 

It doesn't get any richer than this, folks!

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Sorry, but I disagree that "a deep need to belong" is a flimsy reason to either join the church or decide to leave.  I honestly just believe it's not up to us to judge the reasons people make these decisions as they are very personal and varied.  We have no idea what emotions and feelings entered into either decision.

I really do not like the way this was presented and then laughed about.  It just feels very wrong to me and I'd honestly never laugh at someone else's pain even if I disagreed with their decisions and conclusions.

What I mean by flimsy here was that she allowed herself to be blown to whatever beliefs those around her at the moment had.  Her structure of belief and disbelief was flimsy, her choices made as soon as she was comfortable or uncomfortable in her new environment.  She herself laughed about it.

That her flimsy choices were motivated by a fundamental part of her personality doesn't change the level of effort put into those choices.

I am not in anyway trashing or trivializing her experience, it was extremely painful to watch this happen as she was my best friends and I had seen the pain that had caused this deep need to belong (family issues including an alcoholic father) as well as consequences that altered her life (getting pregnant and married).  I hope she was able to find a home she was able to sink her roots deep in but I don't know as she cut off contact from me, as far as I can tell because she felt uncomfortable...letters changed from massive epics where we shared everything to notes that could have been sent out to practically total strangers. 

[Lemuel]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

The goal, of course, is to belittle the decision of Mormons to leave the Church, and to denigrate those who do.

The Tempe attendees laugh because they are part of the belittling and the denigrating. 

The decision to leave MUST be scorned as ridiculous--otherwise it puts at risk all those in attendance.

So long as it is a ridiculous decision to leave the LDS Church, nobody present is at risk of doing the same.

 

 

It's almost as if they are in some sort of a large building doing the laughing and scorning...

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

What I mean by flimsy here was that she allowed herself to be blown to whatever beliefs those around her at the moment had.  Her structure of belief and disbelief was flimsy, her choices made as soon as she was comfortable or uncomfortable in her new environment.  She herself laughed about it.

That her flimsy choices were motivated by a fundamental part of her personality doesn't change the level of effort put into those choices.

I am not in anyway trashing or trivializing her experience, it was extremely painful to watch this happen as she was my best friends and I had seen the pain that had caused this deep need to belong (family issues including an alcoholic father) as well as consequences that altered her life (getting pregnant and married).  I hope she was able to find a home she was able to sink her roots deep in but I don't know as she cut off contact from me, as far as I can tell because she felt uncomfortable...letters changed from massive epics where we shared everything to notes that could have been sent out to practically total strangers. 

I'm sorry you lost a good friend I've been through that too 

I understand now what you're trying to say.  It's the laughing and almost mocking tone that really bothers me here.  I just expected more from one of our Apostles with how he treats this topic.  I know they're human too and I'll keep that in mind, of course.  It just felt so wrong to hear and watch this.

Edited April 30, 2016 by JulieM

[thesometimesaint]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I have and I am.  Can you understand how it is made difficult when a man I am trying to sustain as an apostle makes a statement like Elder Holland?

That's good. I've never always agreed with what any mortal has said. But I can still sustain them in their position.

[Calm]

I think people often make jokes about things that are very painful to them to dampen the emotional burden. Other times jokes may get made about stuff they find absurd, human behaviour that makes no sense to them.  It can often come across as mocking when it is more bewilderment in my experience, though I have no clue why humour was chosen in this case.  There are other reasons for humour as well, incuding unfortunately malicious reasons though I have no doubt Elder Holland was not malicious.

If we need to learn to be nonjudgmental of (most of) those who leave the Church, then it seems to me it is equally important to learn to be nonjudgmental of those who may be in our eyes too judgmental.

I put in "most of" because I think there is little debate about judging someone who gets booted for serious criminal activity.  I am not sure we should be nonjudgmental in cases where we are very familiar with the dynamics, I am equally unsure that we need to be judgmental, but I do think whatever path we choose, we should be consistent.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

The seeds of my collapsed testimony in the restored church were planted a little over a decade ago while serving as YM president to a couple of struggling gay young men.  Things got worse as my study led me to realize how often the 15 speak "as men".  But I dug in deeper trying to learn, pray, understand.  I worked hard.  Was called as an early morning seminary teacher and I gave it everything I had.  My consistent, heartfelt prayer and study helped me feel the Spirit daily.  In the midst of that Prop 8 hit.  I also learned more about the early history of the church through the year that I taught D&C.  My shelf was getting weak from the weight of everything I had placed there.  I was feeling betrayed by the leaders I had place my trust in for decades of my life.  Apostles of the Lord to whom I had given my all.  Still, I was determined to make it work.  A great man who I loved and admired called me to serve as his counselor in the bishopric.  I accepted and for another four years have served with all my might, mind, and strength.

I have studied enough, read enough, talked with enough people that I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that there are good and valid reasons to leave this church.  Elder Holland's words in Arizona are like a dagger in my back.  It was crass and un-Christlike.  He's either being intentionally ignorant at this point or just willing to say whatever garbage he feels is necessary to make his point.  He clearly has no idea or concern for the amount of work, love, service, and pain I've put into staying in the church.  If he could take a moment to think about people like me, he wouldn't make such horrible statements.

Your path is so close to my own. I too taught seminary for a number of years. And I too was called into s bishopric. Later served on the high council. What is different is that I always knew I was gay and based my life on a false promise that if I would only marry a woman then being gay would disappear. I so wanted that to be true. And I worked hard to magnify my callings . But it was all built on empty and false promises. Those that I should have been able to trust I learned that I could not. I am forever touched by your compassion towards God's gay children  yeah, we are also His children and feel His love  Even those who sin and are not perfect  God has a place for us.  Evidently just not in His church.  

When it became apparent that I had to sever ties with the church it was surprisingly so much easier than I imagined. I knew it was the right thing for me to do. It is a decision I have never regretted. For the first couple of years I would constantly ponder the words 'wickedness never was happiness". But my soul was filled with joy and my relationship with God became so much stronger. There was a reassurance that I was on the right path for me. Since leaving the church it has become almost toxic towards gays from embarking on Prop 8 to the latest reprisal to children of gay parents and pushing those that are gay 

While the church has become increasingly hostile toward me because I am gay, I also acknowledge loud and clear that there are MANY who find love and comfort in the church. I only wish them well and encourage them to stay if they find peace there. We all need to remember that the church is only an earthly organization. It will be replaced by Christ himself and the majority of humanity will come to Him by other paths. At 1% the total coming to Christ by the church is insignificant. 

[JulieM]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think people often make jokes about things that are very painful to them to dampen the emotional burden. Other times jokes may get made about stuff they find absurd, human behaviour that makes no sense to them.  It can often come across as mocking when it is more bewilderment in my experience, though I have no clue why humour was chosen in this case.  There are other reasons for humour as well, incuding unfortunately malicious reasons though I have no doubt Elder Holland was not malicious.

I agree. 

However, as an Apostle speaking in public, they have to know that members hang on every word and look to them as an example of how they should react to and treat others.  I have to believe many there in attendance are either struggling themselves or have family members who are right now.

Is there anyone on here who believes we should follow this example and treat a family member or friend who is struggling or have stopped attending church like this?  Make light of it, mock or laugh?  

I've been through my own pain with this, and watching an Apostle do this just hurt. As you can probably tell, this is personal for me, so maybe I'm too close.

Edited April 30, 2016 by JulieM

[canard78]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

What I mean by flimsy here was that she allowed herself to be blown to whatever beliefs those around her at the moment had.  Her structure of belief and disbelief was flimsy, her choices made as soon as she was comfortable or uncomfortable in her new environment.  She herself laughed about it.

That her flimsy choices were motivated by a fundamental part of her personality doesn't change the level of effort put into those choices.

I am not in anyway trashing or trivializing her experience, it was extremely painful to watch this happen as she was my best friends and I had seen the pain that had caused this deep need to belong (family issues including an alcoholic father) as well as consequences that altered her life (getting pregnant and married).  I hope she was able to find a home she was able to sink her roots deep in but I don't know as she cut off contact from me, as far as I can tell because she felt uncomfortable...letters changed from massive epics where we shared everything to notes that could have been sent out to practically total strangers. 

Everyone's discussing the word flimsy. But that's not what Elder Holland even said. 

He called them "patty cake" and "taffy pull."

I've only just thought to look up his name calling as the latter was not familiar to me.

Patty cake (or pat-a-cake as we'd say in UK) is a trivial childish game. 

Taffy pull is: "A large group of self-absorbed people gathering for the purpose of patting themselves on the back, telling the world how great they are"

Charming.

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I have and I am.  Can you understand how it is made difficult when a man I am trying to sustain as an apostle makes a statement like Elder Holland?

Here is my solution

First, recognize that all people including general authorities might have an off moment or day or say something that might annoy you.  Give them a pass on these occasions. 

Second, read some talks by Elder Holland that you like or agree with.  As the saying goes, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 

While the church has become increasingly hostile toward me because I am gay, I also acknowledge loud and clear that there are MANY who find love and comfort in the church. I only wish them well and encourage them to stay if they find peace there. We all need to remember that the church is only an earthly organization. It will be replaced by Christ himself and the majority of humanity will come to Him by other paths. At 1% the total coming to Christ by the church is insignificant. 

How has the church become hostile to you.  The Church has always had a standard view on homosexuality.  That being the actions are sinful and make a person unclean before God.  The Church however has become a little less hostile in terms of sexual orientation.  It does not view the orientation as sinful but the actions as determining it.  My heterosexuality is not sinful either.  It only becomes sinful if I act out on it in areas that are out of bounds.  

The Church is both an earthy and a heavenly organization.  The Church as constituted in this mortal world at this time has different roles and responsibilities as the Church in the paradise portion of the spirit world but the same overall doctrines apply.  

Edited April 30, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[juliann]

I have not held back from supporting those who I think have gotten the short end of the stick from the church. But even I have to admit fatigue....but not because of the church. All I could think of when I saw this was how many times I have seen the mocking over the turgid canned speaking style of church leaders. One leader in one speech does what I have read much clamoring about. He said what he thinks in his own style. And the speaker police can't allow it. Not even once. 

I have mentioned before that I think I am seeing some troubling new approaches to talks and statements to pull them back to easy safe talking points. It is as if some leaders are getting too close to what their critics have been asking of them. I saw it in the absurd claims that a speaker talking about priesthood keys was talking about praying for lost car keys. I saw it when Elder Clayton's sound advice to stay away from those who proselyte against the church turned into staying away from those who leave the church. This is the best example yet of this new tactic:

http://ordainwomen.org/ow_blog/

Quote

 

So imagine the punch in the gut feeling when Elder Clayton said in front of thousands of BYU graduates and their families….

“A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. …. We should disconnect immediately and completely from …those who have lost their faith” 

 

It has now turned from a possible misunderstanding or misreading to out and out dishonesty by ellipsis. Accuracy and honesty has been replaced with talking points. 

Quote

 “A few of you may have run into some who cease to hold fast to the iron rod wandered off the straight and narrow path, and have become lost. …. We should disconnect immediately and completely from listening to the proselytizing efforts of those who have lost their faith and instead reconnect promptly with the Holy Spirit.” 

 

The requisite moral outrage follows: " Really? This? This is what we need to do? This is the example Christ gave us? To disconnect from those who might not agree with us completely? "

I could just as well say that myself, " Really? This? This is what we need to do? This is the example Christ gave us? To misrepresent the words of those who might not agree with us completely?"

I don't even need to empathize with much of the criticism I hear because I agree with it on some level. But I find these kinds of reactions as problematic, if not more so, than anything being criticized. And I do not find myself wanting to distance myself from the church....just this kind of stuff. 

[Bobbieaware]

I just listened to Elfer Hollands entire address an found it absolutely splendid. In case some here only listened to the part where the people laughed after Elder Holland lovingly (yes I said lovingly) said he was angry at those who leave the Church and forfeit its blessings, they need to know there were other moments of laughter during the address. And that laughter was simply appropriate to the spirit and style of delivery of his address which was delivered as if Giben at a large but still intimate family gathering. Please excuse my French, but I think those are taking offense at  apostle Holland's remarks are missing the mark or are being deliberately unfair. And for those who no longer believe, why do you hang around this board and subject yourselves to things in which you find constant reason to be outraged? Why not move on with your lives and focus on those things which you find uplifting and positive? Could it be the reason why you don't move on is because in your heart of hearts you still believe the Church is true?

[juliann]

Then I have to ask why don't you just move on Bobbieaware? I never see you focusing on uplifting and positive either. 

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, canard78 said:

Most 8 year olds might match the first half of your statement. But the 8 year old would probably disagree. 

Flimsy in whose eyes though? Have you come across the conversion model by Hoffmeiyer?

It depends who you're talking about. I agree that sometimes new members seem to come and go on a whim. But I don't think that's who Holland had in mind when he spoke about people leaving and the concerns triggering their departure. 

My grandfather joked and laughed about how he'd joined just so grandma would marry him. My father joining was basically an act of rebellion. However his testimony grew progressively after.

My point was that both types can exist. However,  That still does not make someone one type or the other. There are as many experiences and variations as people.

Frankly, I've seen enough leave because of hurt rather than lack of testimony which is neither flimsy or search-related.

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Great post, BD.  Given your experiences, who do you think benefits from the Elder Holland quote in the OP?

My first thought was people who Enos 1:23 may also apply

My second thought was one or 2 of my current clients and a couple of my previous ones. Particularly 2 whose insistence in avoiding hard truths or adherence to secular ideals are ruining their marriages and limiting their relationships. Maybe even myself in validating some of the emotions I feel when I get front row seats to losing ones inheritance for a bowl of pottage. Sometimes there is empathy and pain with even these. Sometimes its just a pain to watch. Particularly when you know part of them believes, that they've had testimony before, and they're just flailing (a cousin of mine comes to mind). Especially when their dissolution of faith and subsequent pursuit to "find themselves" is hurting others near them. Maybe someone in that smaller audience who had a moment where something hard came his/her way and she/he thought "I should just give this up and let go." Maybe they needed a wake up call.

I've given wake up calls before in and out of therapy. I did it to a friend who was wavering on a very good relationship because of her past...I called him (lovingly) a hypocrite and called him to repentence. I remember one where I stopped this person and told the individual that it was hard to face up what he/she was doing because she/he was destroying their spouse on the inside. I've told others their thought about this or that was BS (and why of course) because empathizing with her persistent depressive thoughts wasn't doing her any good. Avoidant personalities particularly need it from time to time because they hide from the pain they feel and the pain they caused or throw up their pain as if its the only real important thing. There is such a desire and expectation for immediate removal of whatever question, issue, or difficulty that comes their way at times. And it's absolutely irritating....because if they would just stick through it with conviction that what they had is worth it and isn't wiped away by a handful of negatives and may make one ever better because of the pain and struggle then....they may just come out better, life as more meaningful, and their lives filled with gifts they never knew would be there. But they won't because the struggle just feels too great. And avoidance really works in the short term.

And maybe that's "unchristlike" to say...though Christ could throw some serious verbal punches as well. Uchtdorf and Holland have always had a little different style. Uchtdorf is soft and caring and embracing. Hollands the sort that when your house is on fire he'll be screaming like an alarm system to GET OUT or PUT OUT THE FIRE!...depending. Harsh rhetoric doesn't necessarily equal no love. At times soft peddling the effects of their choices is not a kindness and isn't really charity or love. Nor should either message be the end all be all. Holland can speak roughly, but he can also implore with gentlness and extol examples of people who carried the heavy burdens and cried with those in pain and struggle. Uchtdorf can speak of love and hope but give sharp critique to other inexcusable behaviors. If I only shouted at my clients about their faults I would most certainly be unchristlike. But if I never gave them a harsh wake up from time to time it would also leave me as unchristlike.

 

With luv,

BD 

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, canard78 said:

Among my favourite conference talks, this ranks at the very top. President Uchtdorf shows respect for those who leave and recognises the deep thought that goes into doing so:(06:18, emphasis added)
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng It's such a sharp contrast to a recent fireside given by Elder Holland in Tempe Arizona: (2:10, emphasis added) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MacLy_mvVIsha The full recording is available here:
https://soundcloud.com/secondrescue/jrh-tempe I've been involved on this board for approaching four years. I joined at a time when I was fully active and working through questions and concerns. I've spent those four years deeply and seriously considering and praying about the choices available and the implication and impact of those choices. The decisions and conclusions I've reached are based on a deep and meaningful conviction of what is right. Rather than discuss my motives, I'm interested in your experience of working through concerns and resolving to either stay or leave. Many of you have worked through church history and doctrine and concluded to stay. I respect your conviction and conclusion. My own dear mother has been aware of the problematic issues for decades and has concluded to remain fully active. Isn't it more productive to show the respect of President Uchtdorf when the conclusion goes a different direction rather than the approach used by Elder Holland?

What puzzles me (and maybe it is just me) is that you don't see how they are both correct and on point.  There are indeed those like yourself who take such a decision seriously and probe the depths of the issues and draw personal conclusions which differ from others (such as your own mother).  And there are others who take a more flippant approach and just want to have a life of pure hedonism.  Still others want to lambaste the Church forevermore.  They leave it and can't leave it alone, perhaps seeking revenge against the Body of Christ.  All have the right to do so, even it gets Holland's Irish up -- and he has a right to get highly annoyed, even though you appear to call that right into question.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[california boy]

31 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

How has the church become hostile to you.  The Church has always had a standard view on homosexuality.  That being the actions are sinful and make a person unclean before God.  The Church however has become a little less hostile in terms of sexual orientation.  It does not view the orientation as sinful but the actions as determining it.  My heterosexuality is not sinful either.  It only becomes sinful if I act out on it in areas that are out of bounds.  

The Church is both an earthy and a heavenly organization.  The Church as constituted in this mortal world at this time has different roles and responsibilities as the Church in the paradise portion of the spirit world but the same overall doctrines apply.  

Oh pleezzze. Mounting a 40 million dollar campaign to take away gays civil rights. Not letting children being baptized for the sole reason that their parents are apostate gays. Do they name call couples not married apoststes and prevent their children from being baptized?  You really don't get a message loud and clear that gays are not welcome?  Not allowing scout leaders that are gay.   This all goes WAY beyond how the church treats others in sin. The church may have always viewed homosexual relations as sin but the church has launched a full scale attack on gays and their families.  Do you seriously not see how the church treats gays?  

do you have any doctrinal proof that the church will exist in the next life?  

[Tacenda]

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/STAKE-HANDOUT.pdf

I hope this is true.  Just last week my SP come up to me and asked me how I was doing.  But never asks about my faith crisis.  He plain old doesn't want to talk about it.  I'd love to talk to him about it, but it's totally a button'd up topic.  When he sees this hopefully he won't make the same mistake with someone else.  And hopefully he won't take me as being a patty cake baker's man joke.  

[Russell C McGregor]

5 hours ago, rockpond said:

The seeds of my collapsed testimony in the restored church were planted a little over a decade ago while serving as YM president to a couple of struggling gay young men.  Things got worse as my study led me to realize how often the 15 speak "as men".  But I dug in deeper trying to learn, pray, understand.  I worked hard.  Was called as an early morning seminary teacher and I gave it everything I had.  My consistent, heartfelt prayer and study helped me feel the Spirit daily.  In the midst of that Prop 8 hit.  I also learned more about the early history of the church through the year that I taught D&C.  My shelf was getting weak from the weight of everything I had placed there.  I was feeling betrayed by the leaders I had place my trust in for decades of my life.  Apostles of the Lord to whom I had given my all.  Still, I was determined to make it work.  A great man who I loved and admired called me to serve as his counselor in the bishopric.  I accepted and for another four years have served with all my might, mind, and strength.

I have studied enough, read enough, talked with enough people that I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that there are good and valid reasons to leave this church.  Elder Holland's words in Arizona are like a dagger in my back.  It was crass and un-Christlike.  He's either being intentionally ignorant at this point or just willing to say whatever garbage he feels is necessary to make his point.  He clearly has no idea or concern for the amount of work, love, service, and pain I've put into staying in the church.  If he could take a moment to think about people like me, he wouldn't make such horrible statements.

But Rockpond, he's not talking about the people who stay. He's talking about those who leave.

What is it with the Resentment Culture that every little thing they don't like threatens to become the banana skin that trips them all the way out of the Church?

 

[Russell C McGregor]

5 hours ago, rockpond said:

Yes... and with every attempt they make to circle, I feel less and less welcome in the church.  If they continue the current trajectory it will reach the point where what I am doing for the sake of my family will no longer be worth the cost.  So they will obviously do what they want but the cost will be me, and my family, and the generations thereafter.  

And for those who will inevitably want to respond to this with comments about me throwing away my salvation, don't bother.  I am very comfortable with my relationship with God and my status with him.  The Church no longer controls that (not that it ever actually did).

Yes, that seems to be the apostate mantra du jour.

If you believe that the covenants and ordinances matter, given that the Church regulates those covenants and ordinances, then the Church matters.

[carbon dioxide]

Elder Holland words are not the best I would agree with BUT I agree with the general area he is coming from.  Everyone leaves the church for their own reasons and one can't lump them all into one group as Elder Holland quote does seem to do.  However there is a subset of people who leave the Church that he seems to be focusing on that annoy me too.  They are a group that basically want all their questions answered and they want those answers in a timely manner.  They are not willing to wait or set issues they don't understand for now and focus on something else. Jeremy Runnells is a texbook example of this.  Not willing to put the time in to answer his own questions but fire off a laundry list of issues and demand others give him the answers or he takes his ball and goes home.  There is also that subset that they want to church to be exactly the way they want it.  They want it to agree with all of their views.  If the Church takes a position they don't agree with, clearly the Church is wrong because these individual members can't be wrong.  It all comes down to pride.  

I am not upset with these people as much as I find them simply to be interesting and curious. It amazes me to see what people are willing to give up exaltation for.  What cause is so important to them that they will commit spiritual suicide in order to make a temporary statement.   We look at Judas in the New Testament and what he was willing to do to Christ and give up his exaltation for and what little he got in return.  I would suggest that if everyone one of us had the opportunity to interview Judas right now if he appeared to us form spirit prison and asked him whether it was all worth it he would plead to us not to make the mistakes he made.  I would also suggest that those who give up their membership in the Church for their own issues they thought important at the time that when they die would have similar responses as to what Judas would say.  There are countless millions in the spirit prison that will testify that when one fights against the Lord and his laws that they lose and countless millions more will learn that less. Whether it be the 5th century B.C or the 21st century A.D, little has changed.  We are not here on earth to get God to bend his will towards us but we are here to bend our will toward him.

Edited April 30, 2016 by carbon dioxide