Word of Wisdom and mild drinks

[why me]

48 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Children have been consuming weak alcoholic beverages (not sipping strong alcoholic beverages) for as long as alcoholic beverages have been produced (~11,500 years).  Alcohol consumption by youth has been regarded as unacceptable for less than 200 years.

I think that this had to do with the availability of clean drinking water and risks of drinking water. I think that at the time of christ, wine was safe but water could be problematic and hard to come by. I think that the problem came with overconsumption. It is never a pretty sight to see young people drunk and making a raucous and the problems that can come from it. 

[Mark Beesley]

On April 17, 2016 at 0:06 PM, JAHS said:

Strict compliance to the doctrine was not practiced until many years later. It wasn't until as late as 1930 that strict adherence to the Word of Wisdom was required for a Temple recommend. President Joseph F. Smith taught that the Lord did not insist on strict compliance in the early years in order to allow a generation addicted to noxious substances some years to discard bad habits.

Did Joseph F Smith also teach that we should allow new converts a generation to discard their bad habits? Of course not.  JFS was giving a personal, not very well thought out opinion . . . IMHO.

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, Mark Beesley said:

Did Joseph F Smith also teach that we should allow new converts a generation to discard their bad habits? Of course not.  JFS was giving a personal, not very well thought out opinion . . . IMHO.

It was not well said. I think Smith was talking about the social norms that most everyone followed during those early days of the church. With everyone drinking wine and hot coffee and tea it would be hard for all of them to suddenly give it up. Now when a person joins the church and can see how all the other members can live without it, it might be easier for that person to give it up so they can be included as a member in good standing. 

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Children have been consuming weak alcoholic beverages (not sipping strong alcoholic beverages) for as long as alcoholic beverages have been produced (~11,500 years).  Alcohol consumption by youth has been regarded as unacceptable for less than 200 years.

It doesn't make it smart or good. People have been doing lots of things bad for them for years like treating sickness with strychnine, bloodletting etc

Encouraging children to consume alcohol is simply not good. Numerous studies show it is unhealthy for developing brains, and drunken mothers can severely damage their fetus with alcohol. Alcohol is essentially a poison with little to no health benefits - in fact it kills its maker - the yeast. Indeed, alcohol is a sterilant which kills life. Alcohol is not what makes doctors recommend a glass of wine. While in small doses like a glass of wine, it might be ok, and the yeast in our bodies probably produce a little for us, the problem is it is readily abused and becomes addicting in larger amounts. I don't believe it is wise as a daily habit, and the Bible speaks against drunkeness.

[RevTestament]

19 hours ago, snowflake said:

When I section 89 and compare it to the "church standard" of the word of wisdom today I just have to shake my head.

Verse 5 and 6, wine is bad except for sacrament, you should make this wine yourselves.

Another section makes it clear that it was not necessary to use wine for sacrament. 

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Verse 10 and 11, it seems as though marijuana would be okay here (eaten of course with thanksgiving....ALL wholesome herbs ).

Just because something is an herb, doesn't make it wise to use. There are lots of examples of herbs to avoid. The Lord doesn't appear to approve of substances which change or impair our mental state. That said there are beneficial as well as non-mind-altering substances in marijuana which can be extracted for use for example to fight seizures.

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Verse 12 and 13, only eat meat in times of winter, cold or famine.

I personally interpret that verse to mean to eat meat sparingly except in times of famine or winter when no other food is available. I try to limit my meat intake to one helping per day, and use vegetative foods as the staff of life.

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Verse 17 barley to be used for mild drinks (beer) is ok.

Perhaps, but the brethren with the keys to the temple would like us to abstain from all alcohol - even if this began with prohibition, there is nothing damaging about it, and prevents the temptation or abuse of alcohol. 

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Can someone please tell me why we have strayed so far from the original word of wisdom?  I've been to so many 4th of July LDS cookouts and nobody has an issue with meat. But if I were to crack open a Bud Lite, all heck would break loose!  

Have we? If I go to a cookout, yeah, I will eat the meat along with salad, beans, etc. If that is my only meat for the day I consider that "sparingly." How about you? Are you vegetarian?

[phaedrus ut]

Both my maternal and paternal Grandparents were LDS, married in the temple and drank beer and/or wine throughout their life.  They were probably the last generation that grew up with the cultural acceptance of casual alcohol consumption.  One thing I find interesting is that fundamentalist LDS groups still practice that form of the Word of Wisdom that was common at the time of the manifesto and not the modern LDS version.  

Phaedrus 

[Stargazer]

On 4/17/2016 at 2:06 PM, JAHS said:

nvmd

Edited April 19, 2016 by Stargazer

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

No, it doesn't.  Back in the day, Hyrum Smith made it very clear what it meant, and the temperature isn't the thing.

I find it funny that a single statement from Hyrum Smith is always used to decide the issue. Why his statement and not someone else's? There have been varying interpretations over the years. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Gray

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I find it funny that a single statement from Hyrum Smith is always used to decide the issue. Why his statement and not someone else's? There have been varying interpretations over the years. 

Because nobody else has made a similar statement?

Because his statement was closest to both the source and the time-frame?  

Because he had a serious amount of authority?  As compared to, say, you?  Or me?

Edited April 19, 2016 by Stargazer

[Gray]

28 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Because nobody else has made a similar statement?

Because his statement was closest to both the source and the time-frame?  

Because he had a serious amount of authority?  As compared to, say, you?  Or me?

For instance, George Q. Cannon identifies hot soups as contrary to the word of wisdom. He held the same keys as Hyrum, right? Of course Hyrum's statement doesn't contradict the idea that temperature is of concern, he just specifies coffee and tea. 

The word of wisdom is all over the map, and most of what is thought about as the word of wisdom today seems to come from later commentary and tradition rather than the scriptures. It's kind of a fascinating topic, when you think about it. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Gray

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

For instance, George Q. Cannon identifies hot soups as contrary to the word of wisdom. He held the same keys as Hyrum, right? 

The word of wisdom is all over the map, and most of what is thought about as the word of wisdom today seems to come from later commentary and tradition rather than the scriptures. It's kind of a fascinating topic, when you think about it. 

It is all over the map when it comes to individual interpretation. But I think that is why, at least for a temple worthiness interview; hot black coffee and hot black tea have been specified as the things to avoid. And if we are honest with ourselves if we have become addicted to anything else (eg. other forms of caffeinated drinks), then that should be discontinued. It's the acquiring of an addiction to something that violates at least the spirit of the Word of Wisdom.

 

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

It is all over the map when it comes to individual interpretation. But I think that is why, at least for a temple worthiness interview; hot black coffee and hot black tea have been specified as the things to avoid. And if we are honest with ourselves if we have become addicted to anything else (eg. other forms of caffeinated drinks), then that should be discontinued. It's the acquiring of an addiction to something that violates at least the spirit of the Word of Wisdom.

 

I think the spirit/intent of the WOW (the original version) was probably to promote good health. The specific examples in the WOW represent the human wisdom of the day, with its limitations. I think following the spirit of the WOW means eating healthy and avoiding dangerous drugs. Of course hot drinks (including tea and coffee) are not unhealthy. We know that now. 

But a lot of people think that the spirit of the WOW is really about obedience. That's true of the version of the WOW that is rooted in modern tradition. That is different from the version that Joseph Smith came up with, which was explicitly NOT about obedience.  

Edited April 19, 2016 by Gray

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I think following the spirit of the WOW means eating healthy and avoiding dangerous drugs.

I agree with this.

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Of course hot drinks (including tea and coffee) are not unhealthy.

I don't completely agree with this. Science has vacillated on this issue over the years. While they have recently found that a few cups of coffee per day can reduce the risk of melanoma, heart disease, MS, type 2 diabetes, Parkinson's disease, liver disease, prostate cancer, and Alzheimer's; people with sleep issues or uncontrolled diabetes or pregnant women should not drink coffee which can affect fetal growth and cause miscarriage. Also our genes may be responsible for how we react to coffee, explaining why some need several cups to get a boost while others get the jitters on only one. A 2001 study found a 20% increase in the risk of urinary tract cancer risk for coffee drinkers.  High consumption of unfiltered coffee (boiled or espresso) has been associated with mild elevations in cholesterol levels. And some studies found that two or more cups of coffee a day can increase the risk of heart disease in people with a specific — and fairly common — genetic mutation that slows the breakdown of caffeine in the body.  Who know what will be discovered in the future? 
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/14/health/coffee-health/
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/coffee-and-health/faq-20058339

1 hour ago, Gray said:

But a lot of people think that the spirit of the WOW is really about obedience. That's true of the version of the WOW that is rooted in modern tradition. That is different from the version that Joseph Smith came up with, which was explicitly NOT about obedience.  

That may have been the reason God gave Joseph Smith at the time the revelation was received, but our latter-day prophets are the ones we follow today and what they tell us now is not just modern tradition.

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

 Of course hot drinks (including tea and coffee) are not unhealthy. We know that now.  

My grandmother got hypertension and stopped her 5+ per day coffee habit - quite a feat - in her late 60s I think. She lived to be 96, and was perfectly lucid until she died. She was not near as jittery after she stopped the coffee. I believe she drank it black but with sugar. If I were to drink it, I would want to add tons of cream and sugar - I doubt that style is helpful for type 2 diabetes.

[Rivers]

I see too many people at my work that just got to have their coffee.  If there is a substance you just got to have, then there is a problem IMHO.

[Jim Stiles]

13 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It doesn't make it smart or good. People have been doing lots of things bad for them for years like treating sickness with strychnine, bloodletting etc

Encouraging children to consume alcohol is simply not good. Numerous studies show it is unhealthy for developing brains, and drunken mothers can severely damage their fetus with alcohol. Alcohol is essentially a poison with little to no health benefits - in fact it kills its maker - the yeast. Indeed, alcohol is a sterilant which kills life. Alcohol is not what makes doctors recommend a glass of wine. While in small doses like a glass of wine, it might be ok, and the yeast in our bodies probably produce a little for us, the problem is it is readily abused and becomes addicting in larger amounts. I don't believe it is wise as a daily habit, and the Bible speaks against drunkeness.

Civilization thrived for at least 6,000 years without Smith's admonition.

The Bible speaks against drunkenness; the Bible does not speak against the moderate consumption of alcohol.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well our sacrament uses water now instead of wine.

[Jim Stiles]

3 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Well our sacrament uses water now instead of wine.

Yes, but that is another discussion for another folder.

[Rivers]

19 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Civilization thrived for at least 6,000 years without Smith's admonition.

The Bible speaks against drunkenness; the Bible does not speak against the moderate consumption of alcohol.

Yes but the Word of Wisdom is adapted to the weakest of the saints. Not everyone can stick with only a moderate alcohol consumption without becoming an alcoholic.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Rivers

[JAHS]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

Yes but the Word of Wisdom is adapted to the weakest of the saints. Not everyone can stick with only a moderate alcohol consumption without becoming an alcoholic.

And many people can have a genetic predisposition to being an alcoholic and not even know it until they start drinking. Many scientific studies, including research conducted among twins and children of alcoholics, have shown that genetic factors influence alcoholism. These findings show that children of alcoholics are about four times more likely than the general population to develop alcohol problems. Children of alcoholics also have a higher risk for many other behavioral and emotional problems.

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

Yes but the Word of Wisdom is adapted to the weakest of the saints. Not everyone can stick with only a moderate alcohol consumption without becoming an alcoholic.

Which is why I abide by the admonition not to drink alcohol. In our stressful society it is just another crutch which often gets abused. Personally, I don't feel that a beer every few weeks after a hot day is breaking the word of wisdom, but I abstain to set an example for my family, and that I can represent such in Temple interviews. I definitely would not want to see my teenage boys drinking beer at such a crucial stage in their development. Our environment has enough pollution and other undesirable exposures without adding another toxin.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

12 minutes ago, JAHS said:

And many people can have a genetic predisposition to being an alcoholic and not even know it until they start drinking. Many scientific studies, including research conducted among twins and children of alcoholics, have shown that genetic factors influence alcoholism. These findings show that children of alcoholics are about four times more likely than the general population to develop alcohol problems. Children of alcoholics also have a higher risk for many other behavioral and emotional problems.

I think a nature vs. nuture angle would have to come into play somehow in that whole discussion.

[Gray]

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

I agree with this.

I don't completely agree with this. Science has vacillated on this issue over the years. While they have recently found that a few cups of coffee per day can reduce the risk of melanoma, heart disease, MS, type 2 diabetes, Parkinson's disease, liver disease, prostate cancer, and Alzheimer's; people with sleep issues or uncontrolled diabetes or pregnant women should not drink coffee which can affect fetal growth and cause miscarriage. Also our genes may be responsible for how we react to coffee, explaining why some need several cups to get a boost while others get the jitters on only one. A 2001 study found a 20% increase in the risk of urinary tract cancer risk for coffee drinkers.  High consumption of unfiltered coffee (boiled or espresso) has been associated with mild elevations in cholesterol levels. And some studies found that two or more cups of coffee a day can increase the risk of heart disease in people with a specific — and fairly common — genetic mutation that slows the breakdown of caffeine in the body.  Who know what will be discovered in the future? 
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/14/health/coffee-health/
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/coffee-and-health/faq-20058339

That may have been the reason God gave Joseph Smith at the time the revelation was received, but our latter-day prophets are the ones we follow today and what they tell us now is not just modern tradition.

I think there is enough evidence to at least conclude that coffee and tea are not a health hazard, and there is some evidence to indicate benefit, especially with green tea. 

Now as for myself, I don't think of scripture and modern teachings as being two separate categories (all are human teachings trying to get at the divine), but arguably scripture has a special category in LDS doctrine. What's going on is that interpretation and tradition are superseding what is thought to be direct revelation from God to Joseph Smith. 

[Gray]

12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

My grandmother got hypertension and stopped her 5+ per day coffee habit - quite a feat - in her late 60s I think. She lived to be 96, and was perfectly lucid until she died. She was not near as jittery after she stopped the coffee. I believe she drank it black but with sugar. If I were to drink it, I would want to add tons of cream and sugar - I doubt that style is helpful for type 2 diabetes.

I think we'd both agree that consuming a lot of sugar is unhealthy.

5 cups of coffee is quite a lot though. Equivalent to 10 sodas, caffeine-wise. 

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think we'd both agree that consuming a lot of sugar is unhealthy.

5 cups of coffee is quite a lot though. Equivalent to 10 sodas, caffeine-wise. 

Yep, I think it definitely was a contributing factor to her hypertension. After she quit her symptoms subsided and she became much calmer. While drinking the coffee I would describe her as "fidgety." She had a lot of jerky movements with her hands. When she quit, she just seemed a lot calmer, but it also seems to me she drank decaff for a few years.

She was a fighter. She survived a double mastectomy for cancer. I have to say I was surprised to see her quit the coffee habit, but I believe it was a factor in her prolonged life.