Jesus and satan brothers? Debunked!!

[ERayR]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

It's interesting to see some of the ambiguous language in the original post's quote and compare it to what you're quoting here Calm.

Do Mormons believe Lucifer was a spirit child of God? (Yes)

Do Mormons believe Jehovah was a spirit child of God? (Yes)

Is it reasonable to call two spirit children of the same God, siblings? (Yes)

I don't think it's unreasonable for observers to describe Mormon doctrine as teaching that Lucifer and Jehovah as, initially, spirit siblings or brothers.

Does that make Satan, in his current state, a brother of the resurrected Christ? On many levels, probably not. Jesus' role as "Son of God" means that there are lots of ways or roles in which Satan is not Christ's brother in Mormon doctrine. But at the earliest root of their existences, spirit offspring, I don't see any reasonable objection to the description of brothers or siblings.

I'm sure we could find lots of references to church doctrines describing the rest of us as spirit siblings. As such, at one point, Lucifer and the third of the host of heaven could reasonably described as such too.

IMNSHO it only makes a difference if one does not understand Mormon doctrine on our relationship with God. 

[Mike Reed]

I wrote this FAIR brochure "Jesus, the Brother of Lucifer?" several years ago (when I was a believing Mormon).  http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Is_Lucifer_the_Brother_of_Jesus.pdf  

The Lactantius quote provided isn't accurate though. He did not state such explicitly, but I remain convinced that he did implicitly.

[Guest]

On March 28, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Doctrine 612 said:

So over the past month I have been talking with a Christian church group about our faith and they seem to enjoy it, but the other day a member of there church said that Mormons teach that Jesus and Sagan are brothers and he said other things but more on that later. 

I told the group that we do not teach that and that the lds church back in December 12 2007 gave a response to that statement.

 

Debunked by another faith based on their understanding. I am sorry they are not the final word on doctrine, so no it has not been debunked. You can believe them if you like, but the more you think they are the final word, you will one day find that every doctrine we have is false and lose whatever testimony you have remaining. Besides, since we do not worship Satan, and it has nothing to do with salvation; who cares? 

[snowflake]

 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.         Isaiah 14

 

 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.           Genesis 3: 3-5

 

Is the ultimate goal of the LDS faith to become a God?......or to become god like?

[Okrahomer]

30 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Is the ultimate goal of the LDS faith to become a God?......or to become god like?

Romans 8 : 16 - 17   "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

[Bobbieaware]

38 minutes ago, snowflake said:

 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.         Isaiah 14

 

 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.           Genesis 3: 3-5

 

Is the ultimate goal of the LDS faith to become a God?......or to become god like?

Lucifer's problem and sin is not that he aspired to be like his father, he had no such aspirations. Rather, he rebelled against God,and his Christ, totally disagreed with the way the Father was running his kingdom, vehemently disagreed with God's plan of salvation, wanted to dethrone and destroy God and Christ and passionately desired to usurp the throne of God and then run heaven and earth with newly established laws that were wholly ungodly and totally at variance with the eternal laws of truth, justice, mercy and love. He didn't at all want to become just like his Father. He hated his Father and Christ and still hates everything they stand for. The sin is not in wanting to become as holy, pure, just, merciful and loving as the Father and the Son are, for God actually encourages that -- "be he therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." No, the problem is not at all in wanting to become just like the Father. The problem is found in wanting to dominate and enslave others by ruling over them in a never-ending tyranny of unrighteousness.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[strappinglad]

As we are told the there needs be opposition in all things, if Lucifer/Satan had not rebelled or had just been a bit miffed , I wonder where all that necessary opposition would have come from? I know that we as individuals can bring a lot of opposition all by ourselves, but did/do we need a ' head stuff disturber ' in order to progress properly?

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Mike Reed said:

I wrote this FAIR brochure "Jesus, the Brother of Lucifer?" several years ago (when I was a believing Mormon).  http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Is_Lucifer_the_Brother_of_Jesus.pdf  
.............................................................................

A nice FAIR essay, Mike, and I notice that you deal with the Hebrew Vorlage of Greek  monogenēs "only, unique" in your note 2.  Since KJV "Only Begotten Son" (John 3:16, Heb 11:17, Jacob 4:5) seems to directly presuppose "your son, your only-one" (Hebrew ʼet-binkā ʼet-yĕḥîdkā) in Genesis 22:2, it is helpful to understand the phrase in broader ancient Near Eastern context, as Hayim ben Yosef Tawil does in his Akkadian Lexical Companion for Biblical Hebrew (KTAV, 2009), 142, 

Quote

While Speiser and NJPS render [yĕḥîd] (in Gen 22:2,12,16) as "your favored one," construed as a term of value, we suggest that [yĕḥîd] "the only child" refers in a legal sense to the only designated heir.

This makes more sense of the plaintive cry of Satan in Moses 1:19, "I am the Only Begotten, worship me!"  He wants to be the legal heir to his Father.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, snowflake said:

 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.         Isaiah 14

 

 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.           Genesis 3: 3-5

 

Is the ultimate goal of the LDS faith to become a God?......or to become god like?

That's where we may have got mixed signals, IMO.  I've often thought it was God like, but learned later it was to become a God, lame even having been through the LDS temple. But now I'm not a stalwart LDS, having had a faith crisis.

[canard78]

8 hours ago, ERayR said:

IMNSHO it only makes a difference if one does not understand Mormon doctrine on our relationship with God. 

I'd agree with you that the dumbed down characature of "brothers" that some evangelicals promote is a misunderstanding of Mormon doctrine. 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, strappinglad said:

As we are told the there needs be opposition in all things, if Lucifer/Satan had not rebelled or had just been a bit miffed , I wonder where all that necessary opposition would have come from? I know that we as individuals can bring a lot of opposition all by ourselves, but did/do we need a ' head stuff disturber ' in order to progress properly?

Given the common human desire to not only rebel, but be noticed in rebellion, I suspect there would have always been someone willing and eager to take the lead spot for the opposition party.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if we provide the vast majority of opposition ourselves through our 'natural man'.

[cdowis]

On 3/28/2016 at 3:24 PM, Steve Noel said:

Based on this teaching is it accurate to say that Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers? Is this how Mormons describe this belief? 
 

NonChristian asserts, "Christians eat the flesh and drink the blood of their god."

It is all about taking a doctrine, and describing it in a twisted manner.  This is the primary tool of the hate monger on how he poisons the mind.

Edited March 30, 2016 by cdowis

[BCSpace]

On 3/29/2016 at 5:14 AM, Steve Noel said:

Thank you for the link here. I have bookmarked it to read later. I have to head to work now. This is an issue I hope to better understand through my interactions here. 

What mfbukowski may be concerned with is what doctrines one chooses to believe.  I am concerned with what the Church teaches is doctrine.  For that, I would certainly trust what the Church itself says about it's own doctrine.  Go to any Bishop or Stake President and they will confirm to you what the Church has said in my siggy link.  They are very concerned that teachers teach the doctrine and that is expressly defined as something published by the Church, not freelance posts on Times and Seasons or someone popularly held up as a 'theologian' (no offense to Ostler).

And while the scriptures are indeed also published by the Church, consider the implications of the Church's official statement in my siggy.  Only the prophets can determine what the doctrine is out of the scriptures (no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation etc. etc.).  A prime example would be John 3:5.  Other Christians will tell you this refers to physical birth whereas we know because of prophetic inspiration/revelation that this refers to water baptism; and such of course is published in the official publications of the Church else you wouldn't know what the LDS Church's position is.

Now I myself am not interested in advancing my own opinions as official doctrine.  In fact, I will always freely admit when my opinion is in opposition to the officially published doctrines of the Church.  For example, a global Flood is the official doctrine of the Church.  My opinion is that a local Flood was actually the case.  For LDS doctrine, one can only advance what the LDS Church has officially published.

[Bernard Gui]

Has anyone established that something is wrong with Jesus and Satan being brothers? It's never been a problem for me. In fact, I think it explains quite well Satan's antagonism.

[carbon dioxide]

On 4/1/2016 at 6:41 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Has anyone established that something is wrong with Jesus and Satan being brothers? It's never been a problem for me. In fact, I think it explains quite well Satan's antagonism.

It seems pretty basic to me.  God the Father is the Father of all spirits that would include Jesus and Satan.  Jesus tells us that both he and we share the same common Father making us brothers.  If all spirits (Jesus, Satan, and us) share the same common Father, we are all related.  Jesus is our brother.  It is not complicated in my mind.  I don't follow the view of making simple things complicated. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

It seems pretty basic to me.  God the Father is the Father of all spirits that would include Jesus and Satan.  Jesus tells us that both he and we share the same common Father making us brothers.  If all spirits (Jesus, Satan, and us) share the same common Father, we are all related.  Jesus is our brother.  It is not complicated in my mind.  I don't follow the view of making simple things complicated. 

That is the way I see this issue. Seems very simple to understand.

[theplains]

On 28/03/2016 at 3:43 PM, Storm Rider said:

The logic of the statement that Jesus and Satan are brothers is deduced in LDS theology, but the Church of Jesus Christ does not teach such a thing.  There is an important distinction that is made here.  There is no purpose in teaching that Jesus and Satan are brothers;

Actually, it was taught by the LDS Church in the Gospel Principles manual for the longest time 
until it was removed in the current version.

"We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. 
Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help.
Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” 
(Abraham 3:27) (chapter 3, page 17).

But they never considered this a false teaching all during that time.

Thanks,
Jim

[Storm Rider]

59 minutes ago, theplains said:

Actually, it was taught by the LDS Church in the Gospel Principles manual for the longest time 
until it was removed in the current version.

"We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. 
Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help.
Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” 
(Abraham 3:27) (chapter 3, page 17).

But they never considered this a false teaching all during that time.

Thanks,
Jim

and I guess there is no need to teach such a thing and thus it is not in the manual.  I was not aware of it being in the previous manuals.  Having taught Gospel Doctrine for many years at different periods of my life - I either chose to overlook it or never noticed it and certainly never taught it.  

Jim, it is not a false teaching.  It is a logical deduction of our understanding of God as creator of all spirits.  Satan is a creation of God and thus as easily considered my brother and the brother of everyone else.  I still think we are straining at the definition of "brother".  This wider, inclusive definition almost makes the term brother meaningless.  However, that still does not lessen the logic that Satan, as the one who provided a plan devoid of free agency and competing to take the place of the Savior, was at one time within the family of God's creation.  

[Tsuzuki]

I still think that Satan is the Holy Ghost.

[cdowis]

On 3/29/2016 at 2:16 PM, snowflake said:

 Is the ultimate goal of the LDS faith to become a God?......or to become god like?

You can find out from the Bible

Rev 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

See what Christ taught   John 17:19-23
 

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

and I guess there is no need to teach such a thing and thus it is not in the manual.  I was not aware of it being in the previous manuals.  Having taught Gospel Doctrine for many years at different periods of my life - I either chose to overlook it or never noticed it and certainly never taught it.  

Jim, it is not a false teaching.  It is a logical deduction of our understanding of God as creator of all spirits.  Satan is a creation of God and thus as easily considered my brother and the brother of everyone else.  I still think we are straining at the definition of "brother".  This wider, inclusive definition almost makes the term brother meaningless.  However, that still does not lessen the logic that Satan, as the one who provided a plan devoid of free agency and competing to take the place of the Savior, was at one time within the family of God's creation.  

Lucifer was/is a Child of God. Thus a brother of us all. Lucifer chose to become Satan. Thus an enemy to God and all that is good.

[thesometimesaint]

8 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

I still think that Satan is the Holy Ghost.

Not in the LDS belief. Lucifer was cast down, and became Satan. The enemy of the Holy Ghost.

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Lucifer was/is a Child of God. Thus a brother of us all. Lucifer chose to become Satan. Thus an enemy to God and all that is good.

Yup, I think I said that.